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Reporting For Duty

ShamMol

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Hey all, I am a Democrat who absolutely loves to argue. I am 17 years old, volunteered for the Kerry campaign already. I am especially good at constitutional law and love to argue obscure elements of it like the constitutionality of Title II of the ADA relating to the participation in extracurricular sports...just for example.

I don't know what else to say except I love this forum after only 4 posts.

ShamMol
 

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Thank you for the compliment. :)


Welcome to Debate Politics!
:wcm
 
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ShamMol said:
Hey all, I am a Democrat who absolutely loves to argue. I am 17 years old, volunteered for the Kerry campaign already. I am especially good at constitutional law and love to argue obscure elements of it like the constitutionality of Title II of the ADA relating to the participation in extracurricular sports...just for example.

I don't know what else to say except I love this forum after only 4 posts.

ShamMol
You sound like my kind of person. Welcome.
 

alienken

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Good to see you ShamMal.........I am independent conservative so feel free to come at me anytime, that's what I'm here for. I try to stay cool and calm without namecalling......Right now I'm aggravated with the Supreme Court.Some of the judges are not even pretending to focus on just our constitution and laws but referring to other country's laws.Agree or disagree about the judgment rendered, our lawsare supposed to come from law makers that represent the people!
 

ShamMol

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alienken said:
Good to see you ShamMal.........I am independent conservative so feel free to come at me anytime, that's what I'm here for. I try to stay cool and calm without namecalling......Right now I'm aggravated with the Supreme Court.Some of the judges are not even pretending to focus on just our constitution and laws but referring to other country's laws.Agree or disagree about the judgment rendered, our lawsare supposed to come from law makers that represent the people!
are you referring to the ban on the death penalty for minors? cause I mean, that was bound to happen, because it is sorta cruel and very unusual when you consider that something like 3 other countries did it...but in regards to the fact that they don't focus on the constitution, I am mad at scalia. He always cites history and precidence where those things have ZERO basis. I am getting sick of it, and this man could be the next supreme justice? That would make me stop wanting to become a lawyer. I don't think I could respect a legal system headed by that man...

But as to the refferring to other countries, you do know that in basically every opinion, they cite legal stuff from other countries to justify what is in their opinion. This isn't a new thing and frankly, it is this constitution as well because killing someone who does not have complete control of his emotions and thought process is already considered illegal (see mentally ill people), and this is the next logical step from that. So, if you want to look at the decision of the main court, you will see they cite that as the main basis and the other countries not agreeing with it as an afterthought and more basis, and that is how it always it because they almost always proviede international law to help support their opinions.
 
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Jaymo

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Bumper sticker idea - God is alive in heaven and there's a Texan in the White House. Life is GOOD!
I saw a bumper sticker today that pretty well sums up the state of our country since it has been hijacked by the Neo-CON death squads. It was a bush cheney /2004 cut in half with a German swastika flag in between and below it read Join the Party with the
RNC below that. :(
 

ShamMol

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Jaymo said:
Bumper sticker idea - God is alive in heaven and there's a Texan in the White House. Life is GOOD!
I saw a bumper sticker today that pretty well sums up the state of our country since it has been hijacked by the Neo-CON death squads. It was a bush cheney /2004 cut in half with a German swastika flag in between and below it read Join the Party with the
RNC below that. :(
gotta get me one of those...I keed, I keed...
 

-jess-

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can someone delete this, i was just joking around and I really didnt want to **** shammol off, I thought we where friends before I did this, and now he seems to hate me cause of this little prank... just delete my posts in this topic and pretend like this never happened, and while your at it, hopefully u can ban me... I am not gonna stick around cause, I'd prob just be a nuisance... Peace out, and btw. Sorry for acting like a ****... Guess this is just one of those things that people like to talk about... so Just wanted to let you know that I am very sorry for acting like a total ****...

(note: I already posted this but, I might as well do it here too)
 

Strangelove

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Jaymo said:
I saw a bumper sticker today that pretty well sums up the state of our country since it has been hijacked by the Neo-CON death squads. It was a bush cheney /2004 cut in half with a German swastika flag in between and below it read Join the Party with the
RNC below that. :(
Ok-rule no.1 if you want your argument to be taken seriously:
Don't resort to hyperbole. the 'death squads' remark is absurd.
Bush/Cheney stickers with swastikas borders on the theatrical.

It's good to disagree. But use facts to support your position, not invective to verify your emotion.
 

ShamMol

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Strangelove said:
Ok-rule no.1 if you want your argument to be taken seriously:
Don't resort to hyperbole. the 'death squads' remark is absurd.
Bush/Cheney stickers with swastikas borders on the theatrical.

It's good to disagree. But use facts to support your position, not invective to verify your emotion.

i didn't post what you were responding to, but i happen to love those bumper stickers just for their ludicrousy (spelling?). I think it hilarity that someone is so reviled that they are compared to hitler...well, i don't think that 115,000 innocent civilians compares to 14 million, so I won't be calling him hitler
 

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Strangelove said:
Ok-rule no.1 if you want your argument to be taken seriously:
Don't resort to hyperbole. the 'death squads' remark is absurd.
Bush/Cheney stickers with swastikas borders on the theatrical.

It's good to disagree. But use facts to support your position, not invective to verify your emotion.
Perhaps what Jaymo meant was the neo-con lead American army and US gov't. Are you possibly implying that you support neo-conservatives?
 

ShamMol

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anomaly said:
Perhaps what Jaymo meant was the neo-con lead American army and US gov't. Are you possibly implying that you support neo-conservatives?
no, i think he was just offering advice...or...i don't know honestly
 

Strangelove

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I apologize in advance for typos. I am notorious for them, because I am a 'hunt and peck' typist. Please just look at the ideas.



"115,000 innocent civilians killed"

Interesting how this number grows from forum to forum.

115K is the latest permutation I've heard. Actual number are likely in the 10,000 range, based on both CCM's (Combat Casualty Models)...and on ground reporting from Iraqi and US sources combined. Since this is a largely urban warfare campaign, civilian casualties can be expected. The last time a major urban war was fought was Stalingrad, winter of 41-42, then to a lesser extent, Berlin-45.

Yet it's really a number to serve a purpose isn't it? Since it's never been verified by a single reputable source, the number gains a life of its own.

But let's look at this assertion of 115,000 civilians killed in realtion to the number of Iraqi military personnel on station as of 19-3-2003, the day the war began:
-700,000 total Iraqi Army personnel, including reserves.

For all intents and purposes, the Iraqi Navy,Air Force are irrelevant and not included in my argument.

Now, we know which divisions resisted, and which ones 'melted away'. At least three entire divisions just took off their uniforms and slipped into the shadows as superior US forces advanced into baghdad.

A typical Iraqi division consists of about 5,000 men. So conservatively, we've got 15,000 'non-civilian' enemy lopped right off this 100K number (100 is what I see most often). So now, we're at 85,000 unless you consider an enemy soldier an 'innocent civilian'....I hope not.

Now, let's look at another detailed fact: smart weapons technology.

In the 1991 Gulf War, approximately 10% of the munitions deployed were considerd 'smart', able to impact at specific points of specific targets. Literally, an F-15D pilot with accurate intel could steer a GBU through a front door to kill the enemy.

However to be fair, we must acknowledge that the smartest munition is only as smart as the intel behind its delpoyment. Target identifiers are human, and humans err.

Next, let's explore the theory behind precision weaponry, as related to combat doctrine.

If you are an officer commanding a battalion, and your strategy consists of reducing the enemy either by direct engagement and/or eliminating his incentive to resist, which makes more sense for you?: carpet bombing him alond with schools,hospitals and infrastructure that will result in massive civilian casulties and rebuilding effort, or using a precision guided munitions at single locations?

My point is that even if we were haphazard and careless about who we strike by air or by ground attack, to hit civilians just doesn't make good military sense, strategically or tactically, regardless of the emotional or social consequences.

We have every reason to not strike civilians, and take extreme measures to avoid civilians, even at the cost of losing opportunities to strike terrorists, and sometimes at the cost of US Forces' lives.

Civilians will die. Mistakes will me made. Smart civilians will either stay away from known terrorist locations, move, or inform coalition forces of their whereabouts. Let's not forget that their former ruler murdered over 300,000 of them during his 36 year reign of horror. Those 300K are verified by mass graves that we have un-earthed.

The 100K-115K number of killed civilians attributed to our actions is neither substantiated by accurate counts, nor is its responsibilty solely ours. The number is an anti-war construct used to scare the uninformed into believing the George Bush wants all Iraqis dead so that he can steal their oil.

It's an argument that, absurd as it is, still claims the ear of the well-intended, but woefully ignorant American.

sources-

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0218_050218_tv_bombs.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/

http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/casualties.asp?searchType=1&searchDays=5&searchTopic=

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/

http://www.blackfive.net/main/
 
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ShamMol

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Well, I am woefully ignorant, but I work with what is given to me...

here is a report months at 100,000 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html

here is a respected place in october...at 100,000
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html

oh and abc did a story on this as well...you know...abc...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1230305.htm

So, that was...5 months ago, and you add on the recent activity especially with all the bombings, just figure out that it isn't that number you cited...you call me ignorant
 

Strangelove

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ShamMol said:
...you call me ignorant
A).I never called you ignorant. I don't engage in ad hominem attacks. Read the post carefully.

B) All the sources you cited are well-known anti-war, anti-Bush liberal biased mouthpieces, especially the Guardian, which ran a headline on November 3rd-"How can Americans be so stupid?"

C)-from your own sources:

"..The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths,.."

"Despite widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on the ground,"

"...an armed guard was mistaken for a combatant and shot during a skirmish. In the second two cases, American soldiers apologised to the families. "

"...The biggest death toll recorded by the researchers was in Falluja,..."


Which leads me to conclude that the vast majority of 'innocent civilians' were neither innocent nor civilians. They knew for 7 months that Fallujah was going to be assaulted. Remember those 'innocent civilians' burning alive those 4 contractors, then hanging their mutilated corpses from the bridge? If you are a family man in Fallujah, and you know full well the Marines are coming-----you leave. Regardless if it's your home. What's more important-your mud house or your life?. Their intent was clear.

Fallujah was a notorious Ba'th stronghold. Do you know who the Ba'thists are? If not, learn.

So, those people wanted a confrontation and got it. End of story.

Even Human Rights Watch, no friend of this war says:
"..."The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," said Marc E. Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which investigated the number of civilian deaths that occurred during the invasion. "These numbers seem to be inflated."

100,000?

NO WAY It's a fashion statement number that this non-scientific, bogus study ponies out for the 6 o'clock news.

By the way, I love the way you ignore all the other facts regarding military doctrine and technology I offered. No response, huh? :rolleyes:

So far, debating here is pretty typical. I was hopin for soemthing a little deeper. Are there any liberals in here who can refrain from the 'Bush death squad' and 'Bush is Hitler' comment long enough to form a coherent argument?
 
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Strangelove

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ShamMol said:
...you call me ignorant


A).I never called youshamol... ignorant. I don't engage in ad hominem attacks. Read the post carefully.

B) All the sources you cited are well-known anti-war, anti-Bush liberal biased mouthpieces, especially the Guardian, which ran a headline on November 3rd-"How can Americans be so stupid?"

C)-from your own sources:

"..The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths,.."

"Despite widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on the ground,"

"...an armed guard was mistaken for a combatant and shot during a skirmish. In the second two cases, American soldiers apologised to the families. "

"...The biggest death toll recorded by the researchers was in Falluja,..."


Which leads me to conclude that the vast majority of 'innocent civilians' were neither innocent nor civilians. They knew for 7 months that Fallujah was going to be assaulted. Remember those 'innocent civilians' burning alive those 4 contractors, then hanging their mutilated corpses from the bridge? If you are a family man in Fallujah, and you know full well the Marines are coming-----you leave. Regardless if it's your home. What's more important-your mud house or your life?. Their intent was clear.

Fallujah was a notorious Ba'th stronghold. Do you know who the Ba'thists are? If not, learn.

So, those people wanted a confrontation and got it. End of story.

Even Human Rights Watch, no friend of this war says:
"..."The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," said Marc E. Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which investigated the number of civilian deaths that occurred during the invasion. "These numbers seem to be inflated."

100,000?

NO WAY It's a fashion statement number that this non-scientific, bogus study ponies out for the 6 o'clock news.

By the way, I love the way you ignore all the other facts regarding military doctrine and technology I offered. No response, huh? :rolleyes:

So far, debating here is pretty typical. I was hopin for soemthing a little deeper. Are there any liberals in here who can refrain from the 'Bush death squad' and 'Bush is Hitler' comment long enough to form a coherent argument?
 

shuamort

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Sorry, I'm having a hard time with that large of a number as well. Per the Iraqi Body Count (which is civilians), the numbers are much, much, lower:

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min
17053
Max
19422
I found those numbers to be the most credible as they cull their facts from multiple news source (from all over the political spectrum) and try their best to verify the facts before changing the number.
 

alienken

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Strangelove said:
......
Which leads me to conclude that the vast majority of 'innocent civilians' were neither innocent nor civilians. They knew for 7 months that Fallujah was going to be assaulted. Remember those 'innocent civilians' burning alive those 4 contractors, then hanging their mutilated corpses from the bridge? If you are a family man in Fallujah, and you know full well the Marines are coming-----you leave. Regardless if it's your home. What's more important-your mud house or your life?. Their intent was clear.

Fallujah was a notorious Ba'th stronghold. Do you know who the Ba'thists are? If not, learn.

So, those people wanted a confrontation and got it. End of story......................

By the way, I love the way you ignore all the other facts regarding military doctrine and technology I offered. No response, huh? :rolleyes:

So far, debating here is pretty typical. I was hopin for soemthing a little deeper. Are there any liberals in here who can refrain from the 'Bush death squad' and 'Bush is Hitler' comment long enough to form a coherent argument?
Absolutely right, I like the way you think and I can add only one thing.Fallujah was where the enemy was and we gave them notice that we where coming that gave the enemy plenty of time to run making the job of capturing/killing them even harder to spare as many innocent lives as possible(PRES Bush and the military was criticized for letting the enemy escape).....We could have been done with these terrorists long time ago if we didn't have the handicap of caring about citizens when the enemy does not.
 

ShamMol

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Strangelove said:
A).I never called youshamol... ignorant. I don't engage in ad hominem attacks. Read the post carefully.

B) All the sources you cited are well-known anti-war, anti-Bush liberal biased mouthpieces, especially the Guardian, which ran a headline on November 3rd-"How can Americans be so stupid?"

C)-from your own sources:

"..The analysis, an extrapolation based on a relatively small number of documented deaths,.."

"Despite widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on the ground,"

"...an armed guard was mistaken for a combatant and shot during a skirmish. In the second two cases, American soldiers apologised to the families. "

"...The biggest death toll recorded by the researchers was in Falluja,..."


Which leads me to conclude that the vast majority of 'innocent civilians' were neither innocent nor civilians. They knew for 7 months that Fallujah was going to be assaulted. Remember those 'innocent civilians' burning alive those 4 contractors, then hanging their mutilated corpses from the bridge? If you are a family man in Fallujah, and you know full well the Marines are coming-----you leave. Regardless if it's your home. What's more important-your mud house or your life?. Their intent was clear.

Fallujah was a notorious Ba'th stronghold. Do you know who the Ba'thists are? If not, learn.

So, those people wanted a confrontation and got it. End of story.

Even Human Rights Watch, no friend of this war says:
"..."The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," said Marc E. Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which investigated the number of civilian deaths that occurred during the invasion. "These numbers seem to be inflated."

100,000?

NO WAY It's a fashion statement number that this non-scientific, bogus study ponies out for the 6 o'clock news.

By the way, I love the way you ignore all the other facts regarding military doctrine and technology I offered. No response, huh? :rolleyes:

So far, debating here is pretty typical. I was hopin for soemthing a little deeper. Are there any liberals in here who can refrain from the 'Bush death squad' and 'Bush is Hitler' comment long enough to form a coherent argument?

I have no response to the tech questions because I agree with it. The military's actions towards civilians has been lessened significantly, but that doens't mean those numbers aren't correct. That Iraqi body count site is not credible like Fact Check, like the washington post is (see above link)-you don't know what their alleigence is, you don't know anything about them because they provide no information on the site.

"Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts. " ---that is all they have.

onto something you said...damn I am tired of typing
"Remember those 'innocent civilians' burning alive those 4 contractors, then hanging their mutilated corpses from the bridge? If you are a family man in Fallujah, and you know full well the Marines are coming-----you leave. Regardless if it's your home. What's more important-your mud house or your life?. Their intent was clear."

Mud house? You are a...what is the word...bigot? You know, not everyone who lives there is a backward sob. Oh, and that nice little Fallujah conclusion you reached with no evidence...did you listen to NPR (you know, non-biased media) before we went into Fallujah? They said that only 2/3 of the city's occupants had left (if I remember correctly, which I am sure taht if I am notyou will correct me), which would leave a huge number to be left there. And just because you saw 100 men doing something horrible, don't lump all the f-ing citizens of fallujah into that group. That is a wrong assumsion. and about the fashionable 6 oclock news thing you mentioned-great, but IT WAS STILL NEWS AND WOULDN't BE REPORTED IF THERE WAS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER as you claim. So, I am done with this right now, post it in one of the above forums and pm me if you want me to respond further, but I, a high school student, have a gov midterm to study for.

I am too exhausted to look anything up because this isn't the real debate thread. If you want that, go up to the forums that aren't the introduction zone.

Oh, and btw, for future reference, I never called him Hitler and never would compare him to it because the atrocities are just so different, which is what I said in my above post (and learn to lighten up, btw). So, if you don't take sarcasm well, I apologize profusely and beg forgiveness oh wise conservative. So, post a thread and I will respond.
 
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Strangelove

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This site is annoying me. I type out an entire post, then I get some stupid message about 'too many tags, please go back and fix it'.....So I go back, AND ALL MY WORK IS GONE. :eek:

Anyway, shamol, suffice to say that when you cite 'NPR as a non-biased news source' :rofl ...you really need to do some homework before debating here.

Stay in school, read, learn...then come back.]

by the way, read this:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5974.htm

...."Another man gave a chilling description of how the men were dragged from their car, begging for their lives. "They had gasoline splashed on them and were set alight," he said....."

These are the people you are defending. com
 
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Schweddy

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Strangelove said:
This site is annoying me. I type out an entire post, then I get some stupid message about 'too many tags, please go back and fix it'.....So I go back, AND ALL MY WORK IS GONE. :eek:
Would you PM me the specifics? That should not happen.
Thanks.
 

ShamMol

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Strangelove said:
This site is annoying me. I type out an entire post, then I get some stupid message about 'too many tags, please go back and fix it'.....So I go back, AND ALL MY WORK IS GONE. :eek:

Anyway, shamol, suffice to say that when you cite 'NPR as a non-biased news source' :rofl ...you really need to do some homework before debating here.

Stay in school, read, learn...then come back.]

by the way, read this:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5974.htm

...."Another man gave a chilling description of how the men were dragged from their car, begging for their lives. "They had gasoline splashed on them and were set alight," he said....."

These are the people you are defending. com
i didn't defend their actions, and in fact said they were horrible actions, i called you a bigot, big difference. and as news sources go, in the mainstream media, i trust that and kcet above all else. they haven't lied to me yet.
 

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ShamMol said:
I have no response to the tech questions because I agree with it. The military's actions towards civilians has been lessened significantly, but that doens't mean those numbers aren't correct. That Iraqi body count site is not credible like Fact Check, like the washington post is (see above link)-you don't know what their alleigence is, you don't know anything about them because they provide no information on the site.......
Numbers will always be thrown around but the intensions ARE important.Terrorist target civilians, U.S. Military is likely to lose a skirmish than to harm many civilians. This gives the terrorist an avantage and makes the war on terror very difficult. Remember, the soldiers of the U.S. Military are the good guys. Too many people here forget that fact.
 

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alienken said:
Numbers will always be thrown around but the intensions ARE important.Terrorist target civilians, U.S. Military is likely to lose a skirmish than to harm many civilians. This gives the terrorist an avantage and makes the war on terror very difficult. Remember, the soldiers of the U.S. Military are the good guys. Too many people here forget that fact.
I don't think anyone forgets that...we on the left are just shocked at how you on the right mixed up the 'bad guys' with the people of Iraq. That's all.
 
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