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Replace the UN?

Should the world democratic community...

  • Work strictly within the UN organization?

    Votes: 14 35.9%
  • Remain in UN and also form a new supplemental organization?

    Votes: 8 20.5%
  • Form a new organization and disengage from the UN entirely?

    Votes: 17 43.6%

  • Total voters
    39
debate_junkie said:
Hey teacher, I came across this little ditty on Fox News today (shhh don't tell anyone that I was actually on that website) while reasearching the Oil for Food program and/or any investigations already in place or forthcoming. I read it and found it quite interesting.

The first link is the actual article. The second link, is the piece Kofi Annan put into the Washington times back in June. I believe you will find it as interesting as I do.

Happy reading!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161084,00.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/20/AR2005062001176.html

just on a side note- too bad the UN isn't a smiley I'd :nukeum: in a second!:2rofll:

Thanks, I've been thinking on making the UN and Kofi my new whipping boy now that my "9/11 was an inside job" crusade is winding down. I need more info on Kofi to make him a top ten subject all his own. Though I do have a top ten on THe UN security council. Fox news huh/Your a little closet nazi arent you?
 
teacher said:
Thanks, I've been thinking on making the UN and Kofi my new whipping boy now that my "9/11 was an inside job" crusade is winding down. I need more info on Kofi to make him a top ten subject all his own. Though I do have a top ten on THe UN security council. Fox news huh/Your a little closet nazi arent you?

Call it uh uh a moment of weakness. Yeah, that 's my story and I'm sticking too it. No actually, Fox was the only site I'd found them on. After finding them, I checked MSNBC and CNN and either they didn't cover it, or they have it buried somewhere in obscurity. :shrug:
 
What would be the alternative to the UN? Install a 'puppet' world?
 
Last edited:
Billo Really said:
What would be the alternative to the UN? Install a 'puppet' world?
If you had troubled to read the opening post and the poll choices, you should have been able to deduce that I provided for three distinct scenarios:

1• Maintain the UN as the sole global assembly.
2• Supplement the UN assembly with an organization of democratic nations.
3• Create a new democratic assembly and withdraw from the UN entirely.

If you wish to maintain the UN as the sole global assembly, then that is your personal choice. Although you may not agree with alternatives to the UN presented in the poll, don't casually imply that they were neither provided nor explained to you. Judging from the poll response thus far, all three choices are fair exemplars and clearly viable.

It seems to me that rather than being an honest inquisitive, your question was posed and intended as a lilliputian personal sarcasm. As a general rule, substance always trumps satire.


 
cnredd said:
Although I believe the UN should be disbanded, how about this for a compromise...Every two years, the UN delegates have a vote on where the most pressing need is in the world(currently, I'd go with Sudan)...

Here comes the fun part...The UN packs up, gathers the airline tickets...and GOES there!

No more mid-afternoon tea breaks and immunity status...Watch the genocide firsthand from the shack-view...

Maybe that will get them to do a little problem-solving...


Thats a great idea. Im for it.
 
The UN is a pompous, useless, ineffective, figurehead which is run by the scum of global society. I say we pull out of the UN, offer them no military or financial support, and see how long people still actually pay attention to it.
 
I don't know if the UN should be replaced or not but I would like to see the U.S. out of the UN and the UN out of the U.S.........

The organization is corrupt to the bone and a paper tiger...........
 
Originally posted by Tashah:
It seems to me that rather than being an honest inquisitive, your question was posed and intended as a lilliputian personal sarcasm. As a general rule, substance always trumps satire.
Things aren't always as they seem. Maybe the UN would be a better organization if the US wouldn't act like it is above the its laws. In addition to refusing to sign some of its Resolutions. Like the one that would hold us accountable to an International Court. In my world, the door swings both ways. If we cannot live by the same code of conduct as the rest of the world, what are we hiding?
 
we don't need to make yet another 'super group of friends'

let's make the old one work first
 
NoobieDoobieDo said:
we don't need to make yet another 'super group of friends'

let's make the old one work first

If people said that when the Laegue of Nations was formed, there would be no UN.
 
I think the UN has pretty much become ineffective. All they ever do is take up causes depending on who the US is pissed with at the time. If you are going to fight terrorists and human rights violators, why be part of an organization that allows such countries to be on its highest council? Besides, what good are the limbs of the beast if you remove its head?
 
UN is as rot as USSR was. If there is a war, UN responds after 10 years, because some nations have been vetoing just to keep selling their guns to concerned nation. It´s doublefaced and about money, not peace. How do You expect a 200 nation big organization to work if 2 men aren´t able to agree? UN is one-footed turtle with a cracking shield. It can oly lenghten the suffering of the innocents. And how about if there is internal problem? Like those peacekeepers in Africa who abused underaged? The whole thing was sweeped under carpet at the speed of light. Compare child-raping to Abu Graibh and think which is worse. And the corruption man...even Kofi Annan is not clean. Maybe they should first make better rules for UN and then start thinking other things.
 
Bestial_Pagan said:
UN is as rot as USSR was. If there is a war, UN responds after 10 years, because some nations have been vetoing just to keep selling their guns to concerned nation. It´s doublefaced and about money, not peace. How do You expect a 200 nation big organization to work if 2 men aren´t able to agree? UN is one-footed turtle with a cracking shield. It can oly lenghten the suffering of the innocents. And how about if there is internal problem? Like those peacekeepers in Africa who abused underaged? The whole thing was sweeped under carpet at the speed of light. Compare child-raping to Abu Graibh and think which is worse. And the corruption man...even Kofi Annan is not clean. Maybe they should first make better rules for UN and then start thinking other things.

That is one of the best lines I've ever heard...:rofl
 
Sixty years of inefficiency is enough. In it's present form, there's no hope of getting it into the twenty-first century. It's time to junk the UN.

Membership in the next 'gentlemen's debating club' should be restricted to nations with democratically elected governments which can pass a stringent human rights test.
 
Connecticutter said:
If everyone always had to be "United" with what the UN says, we'd have a tyranny of the majority in the most literal sense of the term. The majority of the UN is made up of tyrannical governments.

OFF TOPIC



WHAT IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK THE WTO SAYS.......WTO TRADE LAWS OVER RULE AMERICAN LAW......WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
So let's say a genocide is occuring in... ohh, I don't know... the Sudan. If the UN doesn't do anything about it, we should ignore it(THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING ANYWAY)?

Should we just go with it?

Or continue to ignore the fact that UN peacekeeping troops go into villages and towns and proceed to rape the women and children living there.

Or allow the oil for food scandal to go unpunished when facts support the fact that some of the blame lays right at Kofi Annan's feet.

So - my vote - go ahead and continue to belong to the UN and work to improve things (but don't get one's hopes up). At the same time form a new organization that is actually committed to getting things done and done right.
 
SMIRKnCHIMP said:
OFF TOPIC



WHAT IN THE WORLD DO YOU THINK THE WTO SAYS.......WTO TRADE LAWS OVER RULE AMERICAN LAW......WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER.
You may wish to brush up on your civics.

The US is no more bound by the WTO than it is bound by the UN. The Legislative Branch, specifically the Senate, which is responsible for treaties, would never permit the US to become subservient to any entity.
 
Fantasea said:
You may wish to brush up on your civics.

The US is no more bound by the WTO than it is bound by the UN. The Legislative Branch, specifically the Senate, which is responsible for treaties, would never permit the US to become subservient to any entity.

YOU WANNA BET $500 HUNDRED DOLLARS?


SEND ME YOUR PHONE NUMBER WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT

ken@al.com
 
Fantasea said:
You may wish to brush up on your civics.

The US is no more bound by the WTO than it is bound by the UN. The Legislative Branch, specifically the Senate, which is responsible for treaties, would never permit the US to become subservient to any entity.

U.S. appeals WTO ruling on Japan steel { WTO said you AMERICA must changes you laws again}

Crime/Corruption Breaking News News Keywords: ADJUDICATION ARE ALSO INCONSISTENT WITH THE ANTIDUMPING AGREEMENT.
Source: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/
Published: Apr. 27, 2001 Author: The Japan Times
Posted on 04/26/2001 18:18:09 PDT by freedomnews

U.S. appeals WTO ruling on Japan steel

GENEVA (Kyodo) The United States filed an appeal Wednesday with the World Trade Organization over its ruling that part of U.S. antidumping measures imposed in 1999 against hot-rolled steel imports from Japan violate WTO trade agreements.

The WTO's dispute-settlement panel issued a final report on Feb. 28, ruling that the antidumping margins as determined by the U.S. Commerce Department are adverse to the Japanese steelmakers and violate the WTO's antidumping agreement.

The WTO panel further ruled that the U.S. trade laws used for calculating the dumping margins assessed for Japanese steelmakers not directly involved in the U.S. antidumping adjudication are also inconsistent with the antidumping agreement.

The ruling, if upheld by the WTO appellate panel, could lead to a U.S. review of its antidumping laws as the WTO panel found fault not only with the procedures involved in assessing the margins but also with some elements of U.S. antidumping laws.

The Japanese government has argued that the U.S. antidumping measures are not justified and violate WTO antidumping rules.

The U.S. has rejected the Japanese argument, insisting that its authorities have used the most accurate figures possible in determining dumping margins.

The U.S. International Trade Commission slapped punitive duties of up to 67 percent against Japanese steelmakers in June 1999. Japan filed the trade beef with the WTO in November 1999.

many examples.........son.

H.R. 2365 B The Trade Law Reform Act of 2003

Introduced by U.S. Reps. Phil English (r-pa), Sander Levin (d-mi),

Amo Houghton (r-ny), and Ben Cardin (d-md)





H.R. 2365 contains a strategy to reform and strengthen U.S. trade laws to provide more effective WTO-consistent remedies for U.S. workers, farmers and businesses against unfairly traded imports and damaging import surges. It also includes language establishing a Congressional Advisory Commission charged with reviewing WTO dispute settlement panel decisions that are adverse to the United States. The bill will:



Strengthen and improve the effectiveness of the antidumping and countervailing duty (AD/CVD) laws consistent with WTO rules. H.R. 2365 will modify U.S. AD/CVD laws to:



$ ensure effective application of the captive production provisions;

$ ensure that the ITC can address cases in which price suppression, rather than increases in volume, is the key issue;

$ require that the ITC evaluate whether an industry is in a vulnerable condition for reasons including prior waves of unfairly traded imports;

$ clarify that the ITC need not determine the significance of imports relative to other economic factors when determining causation of material injury;

$ improve and clarify the rules which prevent circumvention of AD/CVD orders;

$ correct deficiencies in U.S. law to ensure producers of perishable agriculture products are able to obtain adequate AD/CVD relief;

$ clarify how the Department of Commerce will measure the amount of a subsidy in certain instances; and

$ ensure that the Department of Commerce deducts AD and CVD duties from the import price in calculating the dumping margin for imports. The current practice, which is inconsistent with sound AD/CVD calculations, distorts the margin calculation in favor of exporters who absorb AD and CVD duties. –more-



Strengthen section 201 to provide a more effective mechanism to obtain relief from serious injury caused by increased imports. Section 201 B the Asafeguard@ provision of U.S. law B provides a mechanism to address imports from all countries. H.R. 2365 will modify section 201 to:



$ replace the current, unnecessarily high, standard for demonstrating a causal link between imports and serious injury to the U.S. industry with a standard comporting with that in the WTO;

$ expand the availability of early and meaningful provisional relief;

$ create for the first time a captive production provision for section 201;

$ restructure the U.S. International Trade Commission=s (ITC) causation analysis to ensure that import surges can be addressed more quickly and effectively;

$ add common sense, WTO-based factors to the injury analysis conducted by the ITC; and

$ make it more difficult for the President to deny relief when the ITC has recommended it.



Establish a Congressional Advisory Commission to review the operation of the WTO Dispute Settlement system. The Commission, comprising five former or current federal judges chosen without regard for political affiliation, will review WTO panel and appellate body decisions, which are adverse to, or could have adverse effect upon, U.S. rights or obligations.



$ The Commission will be empowered to hold hearings, collect information and take testimony from interested parties to assist in its review.

$ Based upon an independent, impartial and juridical analysis, the Commission will advise Congress on:

< whether the WTO exceeded its authority or its terms of reference;

< whether the decision expands U.S. obligations or diminishes U.S. rights under the WTO agreements;

< whether the WTO observed the applicable standard of review; and

< whether the decisions are consistent with the U.S. understanding of the WTO agreements, as described in the Statement of Administrative Action accompanying the Uruguay Round Agreements Act.



Express the Sense of Congress regarding the participation of domestic companies or interested parties in WTO panel proceedings. If a domestic company or interested party supports the United States= position and has direct economic interest in a WTO dispute settlement case, it should be permitted to participate in consultations and panel proceedings and to receive information pertaining to the proceedings.



Formally establish a steel import monitoring and notification program, which will help provide an early-warning mechanism against import surges and track the behavior of U.S. trading partners. This program is already in place on an ad hoc basis, and the legislation would make it permanent.
 
Fantasea said:
You may wish to brush up on your civics.

The US is no more bound by the WTO than it is bound by the UN. The Legislative Branch, specifically the Senate, which is responsible for treaties, would never permit the US to become subservient to any entity.

ROCKEFELLER URGES UNITED STATES TO PRESERVE
TRADE LAWS AT THIS WEEK’S WTO CONFERENCE

WASHINGTON, D.C. – With the World Trade Organization (WTO) slated to begin its Cancun Ministerial Conference later this week, Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) encouraged the United States Trade Representative to be unwavering in his support of the nation’s trade laws. With international pressure mounting to weaken U.S. trade laws, including the Section 201 tariffs on steel imports, Rockefeller and 13 of his Senate Finance Committee colleagues wrote Ambassador Robert Zoellick urging him to reject all proposals that would weaken the laws.

“America’s trade laws were put in place to make sure that the domestic industries can compete fully on fair terms,” said Rockefeller, co-chairman of the Senate Steel Caucus. “West Virginians know first hand the importance of our trade laws like antidumping and countervailing duty laws, which help to level the playing field between domestic and international businesses and which keep crucial jobs in our state.”

Rockefeller wrote the letter to Zoellick as the trade representative prepared to leave for Cancun, Mexico, for the Cancun Ministerial Conference, which runs from September 10 – 15, 2003. Even before negotiations got underway, some of the United States’ trading partners have begun to advance proposals that would undermine the trade remedy laws, thereby weakening any benefit from the Section 201 tariffs. The tariffs were imposed in March of 2002 in the face of import surges.

The senators reaffirmed their strong position against the weakening of America’s trade laws in the letter to Ambassador Zoellick by stating, “We recognize that there may considerable pressure on U.S. negotiators to agree to a weakening of the U.S. trade laws in these WTO negotiations. Nevertheless, we believe it is clear that Congress strongly supports fully preserving these laws. We urge you to reject all proposals that would weaken the trade laws.”
 
Fantasea said:
You may wish to brush up on your civics.

The US is no more bound by the WTO than it is bound by the UN. The Legislative Branch, specifically the Senate, which is responsible for treaties, would never permit the US to become subservient to any entity.

House Members Oppose WTO Trade Rules Renegotiation

Antidumping laws defended as essential in free market

Members of the House of Representatives argue that the U.S. delegation to the World Trade Organization (WTO) ministers' meeting in Doha, Qatar, should resist attempts to reopen negotiations on antidumping and other unfair-trade rules.

In November 6 debate on the House floor, members of both parties supported a non-binding resolution that would express House opposition to such renegotiation. A vote on the resolution was postponed.

Representative Phil English, a Republican from a steel-producing district in Pennsylvania, defended U.S. unfair-trade laws as legitimate under the existing WTO agreement on trade rules; that agreement emerged as a fair compromise in earlier negotiation, he argued.

English said some of the countries pressing for renegotiation are those found to be dumping on the U.S. market. He said others were countries eager to slow down the WTO process because of reluctance to face other difficult issues.

Representative Sander Levin, a Democrat from an auto-producing district in Michigan, said trade remedy laws are essential to a free-market system.

"The rules against dumping, the antidumping laws, are critical to ensuring that market distortions in one country do not undermine another through their exports, through their dumping below cost," Levin said.

Trade ministers from nearly 140 countries are scheduled to meet in Doha November 9-13 with the intent of launching a new round of trade negotiations.

Following are excerpts from the House debate as published in the November 6 Congressional Record:

Mr. ENGLISH. Madam Speaker, the WTO negotiations in Qatar later this week are going to be enormously important. They are going to create an opportunity to move the world trading system in a direction which will allow us to provide not only freer trade but also fairer trade. We see an opportunity for a new agenda to emerge for the WTO out of this discussion, a new round which we think will yield positive results for America as well as the balance of our trading partners.

But as we move forward and see that agenda take shape, it is very important that the United States Congress weigh in particularly on one issue which should not be included on that agenda and has been long negotiated and long established. Here I am referring to the antidumping code.

As we engage in a new round of global trade talks, we do not want to see a reopening of the antidumping and countervailing duty laws which have already been negotiated to a conclusion through the WTO.

The history, Madam Speaker, is quite clear on this point. In a previous round, we had an opportunity to negotiate and to compromise, and all parties signed off on an antidumping code that establishes clear parameters by which domestic antidumping protections can be established, administered and moved forward fairly to all parties concerned.

We in America have maintained our antidumping laws well within those parameters, and we have every right to do so. We have not only an opportunity but also an obligation to maintain strong laws on the books that allow us to provide for a level playing field for American workers and American companies and insist that international standards be followed when it comes to trade practices. We have an opportunity and an obligation, in short, to police our own markets, and that is all that we have done.

I went to the Seattle WTO conclave, which unfortunately did not yield a new round of talks, and at Seattle my role, as part of the official delegation, was to argue against a rising chorus of our trading partners who wanted to reopen the antidumping code, who saw the new round as an opportunity to water down antidumping and countervailing duties, who saw this as an opportunity to open up American markets in a way that would provide us with few options if faced with unfair trading practices.

The Seattle Round never materialized, but this weekend we have an opportunity in Qatar to see a new round initiated. Once again, some of our trading partners have come forward. All too often those trading partners, which have a history of having been guilty of dumping on our markets, have been found guilty in the past of having engaged in unfair trading practices as well as some partners who, we suspect, may simply want to muddy the waters, who do not want to go forward on some of the issues that are difficult to them, so they want to reintroduce other issues to slow down the process.

So far, the Bush administration has adopted a strong position, and I salute them. They have had the courage to say that the antidumping code has already been negotiated and it should be left off the agenda of the new round. I salute them for their firmness on this point, and I propose that the House, through this resolution, join them in offering strong support for the notion that the antidumping laws should not be included as part of this WTO round.

As I said, some countries found guilty in the past of dumping in the U.S. market are desperately trying to reopen the U.S. antidumping and countervailing duty laws despite the best efforts of the Bush administration. In my view, this would be counterproductive for the United States.

I urge my colleagues in the House to take the same bold stance as the Bush administration by supporting this resolution today. I urge my colleagues to put the House on record as strongly opposed to including the antidumping and countervailing duty laws on the agenda of a new WTO negotiating round. This would send a clear and unambiguous message to our trading partners, we will not tolerate unfair trading practices, we will provide a level playing field for our workers, and we will not leave our markets vulnerable to predatory trade practices.

Our antidumping and countervailing duty protections are, in my view, absolutely essential for allowing this country to participate in the world trading system; they are important for policing our markets, and they are very important for ensuring that our partners' trade practices conform to the international standards that they have agreed to and that they play by the rules.

This resolution moves in the direction of providing better fair trade for American workers and for American companies at a time when we are clearly entering a recession. I hope it will enjoy strong support. It already enjoys strong bipartisan support. I want to thank my colleagues for that.

Madam Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.

Mr. LEVIN. Madam Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.

(Mr. LEVIN asked and was given permission to revise and extend his remarks.)

Mr. LEVIN. Madam Speaker, I rise in support of this resolution ....

I do support it because trade remedy laws are critical to U.S. workers and farmers and industry. They are a central pillar of a rule-based system. They were negotiated in the Uruguay Round. It was a product of hard negotiations, of lengthy discussions. The gentleman from New York (Mr. HOUGHTON) and I were able to be there at the end of those discussions, and I can say firsthand that it was very much give and take. There was final agreement. We should resist efforts to unravel that agreement.

Trade remedies are really part of a free market system. A free market system means that one party should not rig the market to their advantage, to distort a free market to their advantage and the disadvantage of another. The rules against dumping, the antidumping laws, are critical to ensuring that market distortions in one country do not undermine another through their exports, through their dumping below cost.

The countervailing duty provisions try to assure that one country does not gain an unfair advantage through large subsidies. Subsidies undercut a free market. The safeguard rules are there to make sure that if there is a major surge, a country is not left without, as the word connotes, a "safeguard." And so I think that these trade remedies, negotiated through hard discussions with give and take, should not be opened up.

What has happened in recent years, though, is that the WTO rules have been undercut by some unfortunate decisions of WTO dispute-settlement bodies. What they have done, in a word, is to misinterpret in some cases the actual language and to impose new and never-agreed-to obligations on WTO members. We do not want to make it worse by now reopening this very language which was worked out through such hard discussions ....

I comment next on the ministerial language that has been drafted. It is not acceptable. Essentially what it does is to commit the parties to a renegotiation. It may not say that directly, but that is the implication.

It is the implication because, unlike for other provisions where there is first a discussion and then a decision on negotiation, the way the present draft language reads, there would essentially be a commitment to renegotiation, and that is not acceptable.

I want to close by indicating that while I support this resolution, and I very much support it, I do not want anyone to think that it is a substitute for clear language in any Fast Track/TPA [trade promotion authority] bill. It is important that any Fast Track/TPA have, in unambiguous principal negotiating objectives, a statement that there will not be, as far as the U.S. is concerned, any renegotiation of the language in the Uruguay Round document that we negotiated it in good faith, and we will not agree to renegotiate it now.
 
Fantasea said:
You may wish to brush up on your civics.

The US is no more bound by the WTO than it is bound by the UN. The Legislative Branch, specifically the Senate, which is responsible for treaties, would never permit the US to become subservient to any entity.

Sorry to tell you that you are mistaken. The U.S. IS beholden to WTO decisions and if the U.S. or any member state refuses to abide by WTO rulings, sanctions against those refusing to abide are authorized.

FYI: The U.S. acceeded to the WTO during the Clinton Presidency with a Republican Senate, so both parties are culpable.
 
Originally posted by ludahai:
Sorry to tell you that you are mistaken. The U.S. IS beholden to WTO decisions and if the U.S. or any member state refuses to abide by WTO rulings, sanctions against those refusing to abide are authorized.

FYI: The U.S. acceeded to the WTO during the Clinton Presidency with a Republican Senate, so both parties are culpable.
I completely agree (despite our differences on the other thread).
 
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