Repeal obamacare completely

[Painter]

The country with the most medical tourist is India for both quality and value.

I have never even heard this before. Do you have any type of a link?
India is one of the few industrialized nations with even worse care for their poor than the United States. So its hard to fathom.

 

[ttwtt78640]

You've been told.
The Democrats only used the Republican version to get the votes they needed for it to pass.
It has been clear from the start that the eventual goal is Universal Health Care.
O'Romney-Care was never what the Dems wanted. And you know this.

You've been fooled since not one republicant vote was either needed or obtained to pass PPACA. PPACA was and still is a 100% demorat creation - where they "borrowed" some ideas from is not important.

UHC, however, is not "universal", since many variations on that theme exist in the world. Perhaps if Obama (or his assigns) had ever actually written the "ObamaCare" bill then it would have been UHC (in some form) from the start. You can't fund over 12% of the entire ecomony with a 6% tax.

 

[mak2]

In reality very few people really do come to US for healthcare. That is what is know as anecdotal data, just a few storires about an Arab princec and a Canadan politico have little effect on the entire system. Medical tourism in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have never even heard this before. Do you have any type of a link?
India is one of the few industrialized nations with even worse care for their poor than the United States. So its hard to fathom.

 

[ttwtt78640]

dental / vision is a good question. Ideally, it would cover all basic, essential care as health insurance is supposed to.

As for how we pay for it, we pay for it with taxes and changing our priorities. For example, no more pro bono global police missions. It's someone else's turn. Also, this will make our businesses more productive and competitive, as they won't have to provide health insurance any more. Single payer will also have leverage to force costs down.

It's the best option that I've seen.

Correction: it is the best option that you have yet to see.

 

[Dapper Andy]

no vote
why not just return to the conditions of the 1600s ?
Or, even the 1950s ?
Seriously, The ACA is but the first step, for our nation to join the rest of the civilized world.

Exactly.

What Republicans don't seem to understand is we too can be teetering on the brink of financial insolvency like so much of the civilized world.

 

[Painter]

You've been fooled since not one republicant vote was either needed or obtained to pass PPACA. PPACA was and still is a 100% demorat creation - where they "borrowed" some ideas from is not important.

UHC, however, is not "universal", since many variations on that theme exist in the world. Perhaps if Obama (or his assigns) had ever actually written the "ObamaCare" bill then it would have been UHC (in some form) from the start. You can't fund over 12% of the entire ecomony with a 6% tax.

When it was drafted, they were attempting to get 60 votes which required Republicans. Lieberman stopped single payer in its tracks.
The heart of the bill is an exact replica of Romney-care. All the rest and everything that is different is not stuff that changes what the bill is about.
There was no Democrat that truly wanted this bill. It was passed out of necessity due to the Republican blockage.
Single Payer or any bill like it, would have required 60 votes. Romney-Care with its add ons is all that was passable with 50.
I know you want to blame Dems so badly. But the fact is, without Republican blockage, we would have ended up with a much better bill.
You have to give credit (or lack there of) to both Dems and Repubs, for this bill.

As for funding, the Right latches on to the direct methods but never acknowledges the true drivers behind the savings.
Drivers such as lowering everyone's cost once 40 million people are added into the system. And eliminating all of the emergency room waste and loss.
And allowing so many Americans to be healthy, by allowing them access to a doctor and preventative care.

 

[shrubnose]

Are you in favor of destroying this monster before it gets out of han

d?

Remember, the oppression begins next January. Are you ready for it????

This thread is flogging a dead horse.


Obama care is not going to be repealed.

What is going to happen is that, over time, it's going to morph into a single payer system.

Don't think so?

Take a look at how much success the G-nO-P has had so far with its time wasting attempts to repeal Obamacare, it will have no more success in the future.

The GOP will be reduced to a minor, regional party and Obama care will still be the law of the land.

Wait and see. Tell me your story thirty years from now.




"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.

The clock is ticking on the GOP.

No one can stop time and/or change.

 

[mak2]

I really truly dont understand why American buisness isnt driving for UHC and get away from it being a corporate expense.

 

[lolabird]

Why should people be allowed to stay on their parents insurance plan until they reach the age of 26? So Sarah has a lump in her breast.
Why should people with pre-existing illnesses have access to healthcare at reasonable costs? Remember the GOP primary? Let them die.
What about the 47% Romney spoke about in private? You know, the lazy people who live off the government. They don't deserve healthcare.
Why shouldn't insurance companies limit lifetime caps? They have to make a profit.
Why not continue to allow the hospitals to care for the uninsured? I mean what's wrong with charging $1000 for an aspirin. Surely Oprah can pay that.

 

[Painter]

In reality very few people really do come to US for healthcare. That is what is know as anecdotal data, just a few storires about an Arab princec and a Canadan politico have little effect on the entire system. Medical tourism in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This seems to focus more on cost than it does excellence and cutting edge break through.

 

[Smeagol]

Tweak it. Keep the pre-existing conditions coverage, individual mandate and allowing children to stay on parent's coverage till 26. Make it harder for people to cancel coverage tying mandatory coverage to the right to be treated at an emergency room.

Replace health exchanges with or add to the mix hospital and doctor group flat rate memberships that compete with each other for annual membership enrollments deducted from their rent or mortgage and covers any and everything healthcare related for no extra costs. The only "insurance" involved are policies held by the hospital or doctor group to cover their costs in the event of a super expensive medical diagnosis of one or more of their members. Each hospital or doctor group may offer rebates to patients around Christmas time for meeting healthy lifestyle benchmarks; physically fit, low cholesterol, low triglycerides, no smoking, no drinking, no recreational drug use, etc. and everybody in the group gets a rebate if the group averages meet annual health goals all to incentivize prevention through both personal reward and peer pressure. Each group joins a national affiliated association that allows for treatment by doctors and hospitals that are out of town.

 

[Painter]

This thread is flogging a dead horse.

Obama care is not going to be repealed.

Oh it most definitely and easily could be repealed.

It wont be repealed based on it's own merit, but let me just give you one out of hundreds of possible ways...

Obama attacks Syria without UN approval.
In retaliation Iran devastates Israel.
Russia fires on Saudi Arabia.
The US Navy fires on Russian Vessels.
Russian vessels sink a dozen NATO ships and a nuclear submarine before being destroyed.
Russia responds with unknown results.
In the meantime North Korea takes advantage of the distraction and invades South Korea after nuking some military sites.

The smoke settles.

2016 comes around.
Less than 30 Democrats remain in the Senate, Less than 100 remain in the House.
And that Canadian is our new President.

Sure this is all far fetched.
But the point is that 2016 holds all the cards.

 

[ttwtt78640]

When it was drafted, they were attempting to get 60 votes which required Republicans. Lieberman stopped single payer in its tracks.
The heart of the bill is an exact replica of Romney-care. All the rest and everything that is different is not stuff that changes what the bill is about.
There was no Democrat that truly wanted this bill. It was passed out of necessity due to the Republican blockage.
Single Payer or any bill like it, would have required 60 votes. Romney-Care with its add ons is all that was passable with 50.
I know you want to blame Dems so badly. But the fact is, without Republican blockage, we would have ended up with a much better bill.
You have to give credit (or lack there of) to both Dems and Repubs, for this bill.

As for funding, the Right latches on to the direct methods but never acknowledges the true drivers behind the savings.
Drivers such as lowering everyone's cost once 40 million people are added into the system. And eliminating all of the emergency room waste and loss.
And allowing so many Americans to be healthy, by allowing them access to a doctor and preventative care.

How many of the 40 million added will actually pay their own insurance premium costs, much less extra to lower yours? I too can lower my electric bill by simply making others pay a percentage of it via a tax subsidy, but that only shifts those costs, it does not really lower them. Would adding folks to the electrical power grid lower power costs or lower total power usage?

As for ER usage, it went up in MA after RomneyCare passed.

Romneycare: More ER Crowding, Longer Doctor Wait Times - Forbes

What Romneycare Probably Can’t Tell Us About National Health Care Reform | FDL Action

 

[AGENT J]

keep it and slowly but surely chip at things that dont work and add things that do.

since the vast majority of republicans agree with like 80% of the bill it would be a complete waste of time to kill it. Wanting it killed is totally retarded.

Now in the end maybe it gets a huge revamp but no need to scrap it and waste all that time and the agreements already made.

Bottom line is its not going anywhere and its never going to get repealed so live with it and change it from the inside out, beating on the outside of it will be failure.

 

[Painter]

How many of the 40 million added will actually pay their own insurance premium costs, much less extra to lower yours? I too can lower my electric bill by simply making others pay a percentage of it via a tax subsidy, but that only shifts those costs, it does not really lower them. Would adding folks to the electrical power grid lower power costs or lower total power usage?

As for ER usage, it went up in MA after RomneyCare passed.

Romneycare: More ER Crowding, Longer Doctor Wait Times - Forbes

What Romneycare Probably Can’t Tell Us About National Health Care Reform | FDL Action

Did Romney care make the increase costs to healthcare slow as compared to the rest of the nation?
I am thinking it did. But am not sure, therefore I am asking, not making a statement.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Did Romney care make the increase costs to healthcare slow as compared to the rest of the nation?
I am thinking it did. But am not sure, therefore I am asking, not making a statement.

MA was high (compared to national average) before and is still high afterward, this was addressed in the supplied links.

 

[Painter]

MA was high (compared to national average) before and is still high afterward, this was addressed in the supplied links.

Ok, without even debating the truth of that, let's assume your link is correct and that you are right. (for the sake of debate)

Now, if we are able to do the same thing Nation Wide... Add the uninsured and give them medical care, and the costs stay about the same due to the negatives and the positives cancelling each other out... is this not also a win?

In other words, it sounds like adding tens of thousands of people in MA did not make it go up.
As a humanitarian, does this not seem like a HUGE win?

Personally I'd pay damn near anything to help 40 million people have medical care. Just so long as I can keep my family above water.
I'd give my right hand or my left nut for that.

 

[mak2]

Not the left nut. :shock:

Ok, without even debating the truth of that, let's assume your link is correct and that you are right. (for the sake of debate)

Now, if we are able to do the same thing Nation Wide... Add the uninsured and give them medical care, and the costs stay about the same due to the negatives and the positives cancelling each other out... is this not also a win?

In other words, it sounds like adding tens of thousands of people in MA did not make it go up.
As a humanitarian, does this not seem like a HUGE win?

Personally I'd pay damn near anything to help 40 million people have medical care. Just so long as I can keep my family above water.
I'd give my right hand or my left nut for that.

 

[joG]

Are you in favor of destroying this monster before it gets out of hand?

Remember, the oppression begins next January. Are you ready for it????

As you say. It is a monster and I know lots of people who like it, dislike it, want it changed. I know no one who has read it.

 

[Painter]

Not the left nut. :shock:

Some causes are worth more than our own lives.
We ask our soldiers to die for much more suspicious reasons every day, than the cause of allowing 40 million Americans to be treated like human beings.

 

[shrubnose]

Oh it most definitely and easily could be repealed.

It wont be repealed based on it's own merit, but let me just give you one out of hundreds of possible ways...





Obama attacks Syria without UN approval.
In retaliation Iran devastates Israel.
Russia fires on Saudi Arabia.
The US Navy fires on Russian Vessels.
Russian vessels sink a dozen NATO ships and a nuclear submarine before being destroyed.
Russia responds with unknown results.
In the meantime North Korea takes advantage of the distraction and invades South Korea after nuking some military sites.

The smoke settles.

2016 comes around.
Less than 30 Democrats remain in the Senate, Less than 100 remain in the House.
And that Canadian is our new President.

Sure this is all far fetched.
But the point is that 2016 holds all the cards.

Your opinion means less than nothing to me.

Wait and see what happens.

 

[johndylan1]

Absolutely

 

[Painter]

Your opinion means less than nothing to me.

Wait and see what happens.

If your so sure that nothing can go wrong between now and 2016, that is fine with me.
Strongly preferred actually.
But there is no reason to be so vile and rude.
If that is how you feel, why bother telling me in the first place?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Ok, without even debating the truth of that, let's assume your link is correct and that you are right. (for the sake of debate)

Now, if we are able to do the same thing Nation Wide... Add the uninsured and give them medical care, and the costs stay about the same due to the negatives and the positives cancelling each other out... is this not also a win?

In other words, it sounds like adding tens of thousands of people in MA did not make it go up.
As a humanitarian, does this not seem like a HUGE win?

Personally I'd pay damn near anything to help 40 million people have medical care. Just so long as I can keep my family above water.
I'd give my right hand or my left nut for that.

What is "it"? Measuring costs by looking at only one part of the picture tells you nothing. Let's say my medical care premium went up $200 this year, but my out of pocket went up $400 his yer did my costs go up $200 or $600? Now add in the fact that my insurance paid out $2000 to the care providers on my behalf - does that mean I really "saved" $1200? Note the I never even told you what the annual premium cost was. When folks talk of nonsense like "based on the percentage of increase of X" that tells you squat, because they intentionally left out Y and Z.

Folks can play lots of games with statistics and use clever accounting to "prove" anything. The point is that adding 40 million people at an average of $5000/year in total medical care costs but having them pay an average of $1000/year in total premiums will not lower costs, it will raise them. Many of those 40 million will not pay even $1 in insurance, they will go onto "expanded" Medicare, many more of them will pay 2% to 4% of their meager AGI toward their premium costs and be "rebated" the balance from tax funds; a great deal for the insurance company (they get to keep 15% to 20% as overhead) but not so much of a good deal for "total costs" of medical care.


Please read the last link (in my prior, prior post) slowly and carefully.

 

[shrubnose]

Oh it most definitely and easily could be repealed.

It wont be repealed based on it's own merit, but let me just give you one out of hundreds of possible ways...

Obama attacks Syria without UN approval.
In retaliation Iran devastates Israel.
Russia fires on Saudi Arabia.
The US Navy fires on Russian Vessels.
Russian vessels sink a dozen NATO ships and a nuclear submarine before being destroyed.
Russia responds with unknown results.
In the meantime North Korea takes advantage of the distraction and invades South Korea after nuking some military sites.

The smoke settles.

2016 comes around.
Less than 30 Democrats remain in the Senate, Less than 100 remain in the House.
And that Canadian is our new President.

Sure this is all far fetched.
But the point is that 2016 holds all the cards.

Some causes are worth more than our own lives.
We ask our soldiers to die for much more suspicious reasons every day, than the cause of allowing 40 million Americans to be treated like human beings.

No.

We don't ask our soldiers to die.

We ask our soldiers to make those poor losers on the other side die for their country and/or cause.