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Repairing the Damage, Before Roe

TheDemSocialist

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With the Supreme Court becoming more conservative, many people who support women’s right to choose an abortion fear that Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that gave them that right, is in danger of being swept aside.

When such fears arise, we often hear about the pre-Roe “bad old days.” Yet there are few physicians today who can relate to them from personal experience. I can.

I am a retired gynecologist, in my mid-80s. My early formal training in my specialty was spent in New York City, from 1948 to 1953, in two of the city’s large municipal hospitals.


It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed. They have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.

What Roe said was that ending a pregnancy could be carried out by medical personnel, in a medically accepted setting, thus conferring on women, finally, the full rights of first-class citizens — and freeing their doctors to treat them as such.


Read more @: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html

Word.
People need to grapple the idea that abortions will always be performed no matter what, even in under laws that ban abortion or make it a lot tougher to obtain. We need loose abortion laws that allow women to obtain an abortion, and I believe the main reason why we must have this is because for the safety of the woman.


 

TheDemSocialist

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If you are against abortion there is no way to stop it. Make it illegal or make it tougher to get one people will still get an abortion be it through legal means or unsafe "illegal" means. Its simple if you dont want an abortion dont get one.
 

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Making abortion illegal is as smart as making tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana illegal.

People will still do it, just in a more dangerous manner.
 

Bob Blaylock

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Read more @: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html

Word.
People need to grapple the idea that abortions will always be performed no matter what, even in under laws that ban abortion or make it a lot tougher to obtain. We need loose abortion laws that allow women to obtain an abortion, and I believe the main reason why we must have this is because for the safety of the woman.

The damage cannot ever be repaired. Millions of innocent children have been needlessly killed, and thousands more continue to be killed every day. This is an evil that can never be undone. The best we can ever hope is to reach a point where we put an end to the further killing.
 
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GEIxBattleRifle

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Read more @: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html

Word.
People need to grapple the idea that abortions will always be performed no matter what, even in under laws that ban abortion or make it a lot tougher to obtain. We need loose abortion laws that allow women to obtain an abortion, and I believe the main reason why we must have this is because for the safety of the woman.


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This is from 5 years ago

I highly doubt the supreme court is getting more conservative. Since Obama got elected again he will probably put up somewhere around two that share his views on abortion.

Overall though I don't really care if abortion is kept legal/illegal as my position on this is not political at all
 

GEIxBattleRifle

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Etoner

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The preservation of the species is the 2nd highest priority of all living things, the first being survival of one'self.

And yet the human body often aborts its own fetus.

That tells me a lot about the so called "evil" of abortion.
 

Bob Blaylock

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The preservation of the species is the 2nd highest priority of all living things, the first being survival of one'self.

And yet the human body often aborts its own fetus.

That tells me a lot about the so called "evil" of abortion.

People die all the time, from accidents, diseases, or other non-intentional causes. This is not a valid argument in favor of ever intentionally causing anyone's death.
 

nota bene

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The preservation of the species is the 2nd highest priority of all living things, the first being survival of one'self.

And yet the human body often aborts its own fetus.

That tells me a lot about the so called "evil" of abortion.

I can't imagine what it tells you. If you're going to say that induced abortion is as natural as a spontaneous abortion, though, I won't be surprised.
 

Etoner

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I can't imagine what it tells you. If you're going to say that induced abortion is as natural as a spontaneous abortion, though, I won't be surprised.

As natural? No.

I'm just not very swayed by the abortion of a highly undeveloped ZEF.
 

digsbe

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If you are against abortion there is no way to stop it. Make it illegal or make it tougher to get one people will still get an abortion be it through legal means or unsafe "illegal" means. Its simple if you dont want an abortion dont get one.

Same with murder, they will always exist. But what we can do is make it illegal, deter it, and punish those that have abortions or perform abortions. Part of being a human society is protecting human rights. It's like saying we should keep slavery legal because some may still enslave others. It shouldn't be tolerated from a legal standpoint.
 

GEIxBattleRifle

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The preservation of the species is the 2nd highest priority of all living things, the first being survival of one'self.

And yet the human body often aborts its own fetus.

That tells me a lot about the so called "evil" of abortion.

We have enough preservation of the species as it is. Even after the 1 billion abortions performed worldwide since 1970 our population keeps growing and growing so I think the preservation of the species can have low priority

The second priority should be quality of life in my opinion
 

TheDemSocialist

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People die all the time, from accidents, diseases, or other non-intentional causes. This is not a valid argument in favor of ever intentionally causing anyone's death.

When is a fetus considered life? 22-24 weeks..
 

JayDubya

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Read more @: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html

Word.
People need to grapple the idea that abortions will always be performed no matter what, even in under laws that ban abortion or make it a lot tougher to obtain. We need loose abortion laws that allow women to obtain an abortion, and I believe the main reason why we must have this is because for the safety of the woman.

This coathanger business is meaningless.

Why should I care about the safety of someone who belongs in prison for murder? If some abject monster wants to die from wounds sustained killing their innocent victim, then why not let them? It seems more efficient, and if they're dead they can't hurt anyone else ever again.
 
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JayDubya

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When is a fetus considered life?

A human in the fetal stage of life is alive at every point you could call him or her "a fetus" and well before, seeing as there are many stages of life prior to the fetal stage, going all the way back to the zygote stage of life.

So your answer of "x weeks" unfortunately only belies your ignorance of scientific fact.
 

TheDemSocialist

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A human in the fetal stage of life is alive at every point you could call him or her "a fetus" and well before, seeing as there are many stages of life prior to the fetal stage, going all the way back to the zygote stage of life.

So your answer of "x weeks" unfortunately only belies your ignorance of scientific fact.

So is semen based off of that.
A fetus is considered a life at 22-24 weeks i believe because that is when it develops the means to survive outside the womb independently.
 

JayDubya

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So is semen based off of that.

No, your semen and your skin cells are not their own organisms. Put another way, no, an orgasm is not a spray of organisms. The mere suggestion again confirms a terrible ignorance of the biological sciences.

A fetus is considered a life at 22-24 weeks

No, it isn't.

i believe because...

Your counterfactual beliefs do not equate to a definition of what something "is considered" when the answer to your question is established in textbook scientific fact.
 

digsbe

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So is semen based off of that.
A fetus is considered a life at 22-24 weeks i believe because that is when it develops the means to survive outside the womb independently.

No, a zygote is a human life. A sperm is a gamete, an egg is a gamete, when they fuse they make a zygote which is an individual human life in the first stages of human development. It's a new human life once the gametes fuse at conception. That's the biology behind it.
 

nota bene

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Same with murder, they will always exist. But what we can do is make it illegal, deter it, and punish those that have abortions or perform abortions. Part of being a human society is protecting human rights. It's like saying we should keep slavery legal because some may still enslave others. It shouldn't be tolerated from a legal standpoint.

I don't want women to be punished. But abortion on-demand is wrong. I can't follow the logic either. A society can be judged on how it treats its weakest members--the very young, the very old, the very sick, and the very inconvenient.
 

minnie616

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Same with murder, they will always exist. But what we can do is make it illegal, deter it, and punish those that have abortions or perform abortions. Part of being a human society is protecting human rights....

The SC rejected the fetal right to life arugment.
Since fetuses are not persons and do not have rights abortion is legal within the paramermentors of the Roe vs Wade decision.
 

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I don't want women to be punished. But abortion on-demand is wrong. I can't follow the logic either. A society can be judged on how it treats its weakest members--the very young, the very old, the very sick, and the very inconvenient.

Embryos and fetuses are not members of society - that's the whole point.
 

CanadaJohn

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The preservation of the species is the 2nd highest priority of all living things, the first being survival of one'self.

And yet the human body often aborts its own fetus.

That tells me a lot about the so called "evil" of abortion.

I'm guessing that since all human bodies naturally die at some point in their existence, that also tells you a lot about the so called "evil" of murder.
 

Spartacus FPV

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Read more @: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html

Word.
People need to grapple the idea that abortions will always be performed no matter what, even in under laws that ban abortion or make it a lot tougher to obtain. We need loose abortion laws that allow women to obtain an abortion, and I believe the main reason why we must have this is because for the safety of the woman.
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Nonsense, that's like accepting that people will always want drugs despite the consequences of violation prohibition!

We will clamp down with an iron fist on any woman who resorts to a coat hanger for an abortion! For her sake! Prohibition ALWAYS works! Volstead Volstead Volstead!

/devils_advocate off
 
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