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Removing pro-birth people from the abortion debate

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Rambozo

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To, me, the serious abortion debate is about, at what point, a human life begins, using biology as the criteria.

Some people, based on outdated gender roles, may simply be against abortion because they "want women to give birth" and presume that this is their a natural role of theirs, but I don't consider such people worthy of serious consideration.

Likewise, it seems that proponents of abortion often use the strawman that its opponents are merely "pro-birth people", and that the issue isn't one of when human life begins, but rather just one of wanting to force women into certain "roles".

So, now that that's been removed from the discussion, we can have a discussion about when human life actually begins, and at what point in the pregnancy it deserves protection.
 

Why does it matter when a "human life" begins? That's settled science: an individual life with Homo sapiens DNA begins at fertilization/implantation.

Science doesnt determine or care who reproduces or who kills who. It doesnt recognize value, rights, laws, etc. It examines and categorizes.

What are your criteria that show some important/significant distinctions for the unborn's physical or other status during the unborn development cycle? Or for the pregnant women?

Rambozo said:
and at what point in the pregnancy it deserves protection.
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Does it deserve protection and why? Is your presumption that abortion is wrong? What authority are you using as a basis for your views?
 
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Yeah, I don't know why it would matter when life begins. Meaningless.
 
Rambozo said:
To, me, the serious abortion debate is about, at what point, a human life begins, using biology as the criteria.
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You're referring to conception, while incidentally that's the precise moment the woman's (process of human) gestation begins as well.

Now that we've introduced all the human participants involved, you may commence with your debate......
 
The Brad Dad said:
I think they think it's their version of "following the science".
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It's their shot at trying to find a black and white answer (esp for the religious who know they cant use their beliefs regarding the legal aspects)...but it always fails since science is objective and doesnt address who should or shouldnt reproduce or if it matters who kills who or what.

Value, rights, laws, etc are all subjective man-made concepts that need to be dealt with, including the legal and moral "details" that the "black and white" simplistic anti-abortites hope to avoid. (not all anti's fall into this category.)
 
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Their problem is all of this is based on religious superstition, even when they point to atheists who agree with them. So they keep coming up with what they think are science based reasons to not allow choice, and they're all the same non-starters they've been regurgitating for...ever.
 

Not all. @Josie says hers isnt...just that she believes every human has the same rights, born or unborn. But she has nothing more to support that superficial (simplistic) view. She's not presented any true moral or legal foundation, so her "argument" is quite shallow. "Easy to say, sounds good, taps into her comfort level of self-righteousness") but nothing showing a realistic moral or legal basis. Nothing analyzed more than that bumper sticker. You can try to get more...she wont respond to me..."out of sight, out of mind."
 
Great. I think that's super pleasant. Who gives a shit.
 
To me, the whole abortion debate centers not so much on when "life that needs to be protected" begins, but rather on the sexual revolution/free love, women's lib, and the advent of easily available contraception. Abortion is no longer a last resort for single unwed mothers or rape victims, or for women who might die from pregnancy complications. It's also become a backup plan for people who just want to screw, which I guess is fine. It's the hysteria on both sides that is the problem. It doesn't need to be that way.

It used to be that we didn't have reliable contraception. People knew that having sex could very well result in pregnancy. I can't quantify it, but I'm pretty sure that people, especially single women, had alot less sex than they do now. Being unmarried and pregnant was hugely frowned upon. Now, not so much, which is a problem and partly what is wrong with our society. Although Ive had plenty of partners throughout my life, I have never had sex with any woman I wasn't prepared to raise a child with. I believe people take sex for granted because its fun and makes us feel good. I believe true intimacy has been lost and has contributed to people not getting married, much less staying together. As contraception science evolved, along with the sexual revolution and women's lib, consequence-free sex became the new sliced bread. When Roe was instituted, pregnancy occuring was then seen as an inconvenience to be easily "taken care of" if it wasn't convenient to get pregnant at that time. I believe deep down that pro-choice zealots really do know that life begins at conception, and that the separate, developing life in the womb, with its own DNA, deserves protection, but they don't care. It's selfishness. "The condom broke, so what, I got to have my orgasm". That being said, even though I am morally against abortion, I'm not a pro-life zealot. No one's abortion is really going to affect me. Stay out of other people's business if it doesnt affect you. Abortion should not be illegal. What I do think about, however, is the life that could have been, that instead was aborted. What if that developing human being had been born instead, and ended up doing great things for humanity? Of course the converse could be that he/she could have had a horrible life full of poverty and abuse as well, right? That is the opinion I see mostly shared by pro-choicers. Abortion prevents "unwanted" children. This debate is going to rage on until the end of time. That's my 2 cents for now.
 
Maidenrules29 said:
It's also become a backup plan for people who just want to screw, which I guess is fine. It's the hysteria on both sides that is the problem. It doesn't need to be that way.
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One "side" is women saying we don't wish to subject our rights to government approval. As someone whose balls will never be subject to a vote by strangers, maybe you should pay some more respect to that before defining down other human beings?
 
When it comes to the issue of Abortion, I say, let the Woman Folk vote on wether to make it Legal/Illegal. The men should have no say, and no vote in this issue. Let the Woman vote nationaly and we'll see what happens. This is an issue I'm surprisingly Liberal on.
 

So your position is that abortion is wrong? By what authority that you follow? If it's not wrong, much of your post isnt really relevant IMO.
 
The Brad Dad said:
One "side" is women saying we don't wish to subject our rights to government approval. As someone whose balls will never be subject to a vote by strangers, maybe you should pay some more respect to that before defining down other human beings?
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I really don't take sides, and, if you read correctly, you would have seen that I said abortion should not be illegal. Now I will ask you, do some people treat abortion as a convenient backup plan or not?
 
Lursa said:
So your position is that abortion is wrong? By what authority that you follow? If it's not wrong, much of your post isnt really relevant IMO.
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My position is an opinion and nothing more. I follow no authority. I am not religious. I believe that abortion is morally wrong, but that the government should not be mandating forced pregnancy either. I can believe two things to be true. There are many things that people would say are morally wrong, but are not illegal.
 

I'm good with the last 2 sentences...the final one is esp. true.
 
Maidenrules29 said:
I really don't take sides, and, if you read correctly, you would have seen that I said abortion should not be illegal. Now I will ask you, do some people treat abortion as a convenient backup plan or not?
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I'm sure they do. Who gives a shit? What business is it of yours or mine?
 
The Brad Dad said:
I'm sure they do. Who gives a shit? What business is it of yours or mine?
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I have always maintained a woman's choice to utilize abortion and the reason for it is no one else's business or concern. Why some people feel the need to inject themselves into another's personal medical decisions is beyond me.
 
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