• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Religious tend to support torture more often

American said:
Stalin was a communist, and therefore a leftist. He was the biggest bully that ever lived.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can even compare foreign ideologues with the American political system. Would you want to hear that Hitler and Pol Pot were rightwing conservatives? It's just not fair, like comparing apples to ball bearings.
Besides, Stalin is villified not for being a Communist, but for becoming a Fascist dictator. If he had simply been a Communist leader, he wouldn't be in the Pantheon of Evil.
 
You don't know what you are responding to.
 
Firstly I did not maintain that scripture guides morality simply that shared belief is necessary and this requires some sort of organic, gradual growth to be most healthy and stable.

Secondly I don't believe Atheists are necessarily most benign, in fact I think those Atheistic, statist regimes that have attacked the traditional belief systems of their nation root and branch have been among the worst regimes ever. The Inquisition pales in comparison to Stalin and he attempted to up root almost all past shared belief and insert new ones mainly with the state as the principal agent of shared effort and drive.

No, society requires some sort of shared belief system and authority to even be considered a society and have any kind of health and stability. It is best when this is achieved through the small-scale, everyday associations of life attuning the individual to the goals of the larger society.

Morality is complex, it is certainly good if the individual can achieve some of his own judgments, that is what makes him a human being but as a human being his faculties are also limited and he can't he expected to come to all the values and rules that guide him himself, that is what society is for to a degree. So he draws on the accumulated, organic growth of his traditional moral and spiritual belief system, the many centuries of experience of coming to terms with the complex moral and spiritual aspects of existence which provides him with that a priori platform for his own achievable moral actions. So tradition, in this sense the tradition of a major religion, is not being appealed to for its own sake but simply because it is the centuries of grasping for moral and spiritual truth within the rather organic framework somewhat related to an individual's own society.
 
Last edited:
His extreme Marxist-Leninism is to a degree undetachable from his actions.
 
Hitler wasn't right wing, that's a farce that easily fooled people fall for. "Hitler killed people and wanted war! Right Wingers support the military! Hitler was RIGHT WING!!!"
 
MrVicchio said:
Could you possibly in more insulting or ignorant of Christians?
Click to expand...
Could you be any more insulting or ignorant in your rant?


What I find most fascinating, is that those most likely to protest "torture" also tend to support abortion and are against the Death Penalty. Hang on, I'm making a point here.
Click to expand...
No you're not, you're just ranting like a little girl. Torture, abortion and the death penalty are not in anyway comparable with each other.

WARNGING the following contain: General rule here folks, if it doesn't apply to you personally, good for you.
Click to expand...
A disclaimer you should keep in mind and apply to yourself too.

Which makes you wonder really, where the true face of evil is here.
Click to expand...
Look in the mirror and and ask that.

On one side, you have pro-life, pro-enhanced interrogation, pro-death penalty religious folks who believe innocent life trumps all.
Click to expand...
No, on one side you have anti-abortion, pro-torture, pro death penalty religious folk who don't care who don't really care about whether someone is innocent or not. They are vengeful bullys who are willing to kill and torture, oppress and dictate whenever and wherever it's convenient.

And the other side of the coin, those who believe that innocent life is expendable.
Click to expand...
Strawman. What is an innocent life? How about animals, aren't they innocent? So what if you destroy their habitat to log and create wood and paper products or drill for fossil fuels that could be made out of other, more available, sustainable and renewable plants, they're just animals right?


Yeah, "it's just a lump of cells".
Click to expand...
Stem cells are just a lump of cells. Just because the religious nuts want to call it a person doesn't make it so.
"We cannot put him to death, what if he is innocent??"
Click to expand...
I thought your kind cared about innocent life? Like I said above, only when it's convenient.

2.21 recidivism rate of killers means 2.1 people will die.
Click to expand...
Yeah, how many people will die from drunk drivers who have one or more DUIs on their record? How many people will die from slipping in the bath tub in a year? You only give a rats ass about a statistic that you can use to bash someone with, eh? Sure.
"we cannot torture people to get information that saves lives. That's immoral! It's better we do not torture and people die, at least our values will be intact!"
Click to expand...
Right, and your kinds opinion is that we should sink to the level of the worst people in the world for a little vengence and take pleasure in it, because there's the possibility that in some TV show fantasy a ticking time bomb could be stopped in time to save millions of people... :roll:

All of you lefties that have your panties in a wad because W used some enhanced techniques to save possibly, yes even your life, innocent peoples lives...
Click to expand...
It's called torture, always has been and always will be. You can continue to call a pig a swan but it only shows your deceptive nature. You have no problem saying that we should torture when necessary to save "innocent lives" but once it's done you have to call it "enhanced interrogation techniques", why is that? Probably because you are ashamed and you should be.

You people scare me. I mean that. You berate religious folks for supporting "torture" yet you ignore the reality of the world around you.
Click to expand...
Well, that's the bully's shtick, right? Use fear to get your way... everyone needs to be afraid so we can do whatever we tell you will protect you. It's right htere in the bible right? You're supposed to be gof fearing. Fear the wrath of god, be afraid that you'll go to hell, be afraid that some other religion will come and steal your precious bible from you, be afraid that hordes of backward thinking no resource muslims will find a way to sneak thousands of miles across oceans to kill YOU!! Be afraid the liberals are out to get you! Be afraid Harry Potter will teach your children to become witches... BOOO!!!

Xians ought to pay a lot more attention to the message of Jesus instead of trying to cobbling various pieces of scripture together to make a case for doing the opposite, when convenient. Xians, especially evangelicals and hard righties tend to be hypocrits who hide behind their interpretation of scripture to make themselves feel better and to have a defense for the opinions they hold or the actions they take.

You people claim you are better because you don't believe in religion,
Click to expand...
Not better, just more intellectually honest. :2wave:

yet you cannot face the reality there are some REALLY nasty people out that WOULD saw your head off if they got their hands on you.
Click to expand...
Yeah, like the religious. More torture and head sawing and killing has taken place in the world in the name of a deity than in the name of liberalism or atheism. Unless you'd like to provide facts to the contrary... Those facts must show that atheism was the motivation.

And who dies to save your asses? Conservative religious folks tend to populate the Armed Forces. Didn't meet too many atheist while I served.
Click to expand...
I'm an atheist and was so while in the military and there are plenty more. Even more who would say they believe in god but know nothing about their religion and don't go to church more than a handful of times a year if at all.

Why do you think more conservative religious people join the military? Could it be due to education and poverty? I believe the reason is because authoritarians just love the who chain of command structure (just look how the CCCP runs, - get in line - wait your turn - don't speak out against your party - get on the same page -) With the added bonus of bullying people and if you're lucky you'll get to go kill someone of another religion. :shock:

Do you know of any study that compares ASVAB and AFQT scores with religious preference? I don't know of one... I wonder why? Because people don't WANT that kind of stat being made public. Why?

Hey Sally, I'm not afraid of your kind of bullying, willful ignorance and inability of the conservative mind to empathize because we all know bullys are really quite harmless when confronted. My concern however, is that there are a lot of you and in our country that equates to voting for other bullys.

The REAL mental disorder is the one that holds back human progress. Attempts to maintain the status quo.
You and your kind are nothing but terrorists that are too ***** to act on your insane rantings. At least the idiots that blow themselves up have real balls and true conviction, not the nudicles your kind keeps tucked between your legs.

Yeah, there are really dangerous people out there in the world, you're one of them. Not because you have the sack to do anything but stand on a soapbox and rant but because you incite ignorant fools to do the things you couldn't possibly do yourself.
 

:yawn: The nun that barbecued your cat when you were 6 already apologized. If we got you a gift certificate for therapy sessions, would you please use them?
 
MrVicchio said:
It ticks me off when they go hop on their High Horses because "we, unlike you sky fairy, bible thumping, intolerant ignorant fools, believe that people have a right not to be tortured. See where religion leaves you now?"
Click to expand...
How long will it take you to get down off the horse you're on, hmmm?

While they completely ignore the fact that there are really nasty SOB's out there that have one goal, convert us, or kill us. There is no other way, no third option.
Click to expand...
Yeah, they're called religious folk. The religious folk here are afraid that the religious folk over there are out to kill them and vise versa. :doh

Yeah, KSM got water poured over his face 183 times.
Click to expand...
So now in your ever expanding deception, you'd like to diminish the torture even further by simply saying he got water poured over his face... stop being a ***** and just call it torture and say you're in favor of it.

I bet he would have rather not gone through such. I bet it was damned scary, uncomfortable, and really unpleseant.
Click to expand...
Well, if it's just damned scary, uncomfortable, and really unpleseant, like being forced to watch a gorey horror flick, then how can it possibly be effective and really, aren't there other interrogation techniques that would work better? I mean, wouldn't hooking a car batter to his nuts make him talk? I mean, if you have to get the information fast to save millions of innocent people, why not saw off an arm? I bet he'd tell you EVERYTHING you want to know to save the other arm... :roll:

To hear these lefties rant about the situation, you'd have thought we plucked this guy off the street, and he woke up being water boarded till he admitted what W and Co. wanted to hear.
Click to expand...
Well, maybe not KSM but others.. yeah, that's exactly what happened... Abu Ghriab anyone?

They ignore the fact that the enhanced interrogation was done under probably the most supervised, regulated and limited scope of any "torture" in the history of mankind.
Click to expand...
Got any evidence to back up that claim? Didn't think so.

But that isn't good enough for them. Had Algore been President, and this occurred, they'd be lauding the "Gore, sadly necessary strenuous extraction of information done in the most humane manner ever in the history of man."
Click to expand...
And then we'd all drink tea and read the Koran. :roll:

Yeah, I hope when we invaded Iraq, we got all those evil guys who flew the planes into the WTC. :rofl
 
Moderator's Warning:
Quit the personal attacks. An infraction has been handed out and I'll be keeping an eye on the thread. Thread bans will follow for those who can't debate the topic without having an emotional meltdown.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Didn't see it. Thank you. My comment stands for the general population as a reminder, but I retract it's direction towards you.
Click to expand...

Oh cools, so all we have to do before we insult people is make a disclaimer? I'll put one in my sig so I never have to worry about forgetting it.
 
Funny, I see it exactly opposite. EXACTLY opposite. :2wave:
 

Why then even mention genuine mental disorder at all?

Why do religious folks oppose abortion: because we hate women.
Why do religious folks oppose gay marriage: because we hate gays.
Why do religious folks support torture: because we're clinically insane (according to you).

I am so sick of it. Give it a ....ing rest.

Leave these kinds of posts for trolls.


If mental instability was not your best argument, then why lead with it? You straw-man yourself.

I agree with you here, however, that religion is once again a correlation, not a causation.

***
Another problem with the poll: WATER BOARDING IS NOT TORTURE!
Neither is stacking prisoners up in pyramids torture. Neither is allowing a K9 to bark at them while threatening to let it kill them torture. Panties on the head is not torture.

The poll question needs to use a specific example, such as applying a high pressure water stream to the ear, rupturing the ear drum, for the expressed point and purpose of causing extreme pain.

Also, the question needs to specify what “important information” is. Where a wanted leader is is not as “important” as the location of a dirty bomb in NY city set to go off in 2 hours.

The person asked is left entirely to fill in the blanks themselves, so we don’t even know if the majority of the public are agreeing on the same thing.
 
Goshin said:
Ah yes, we evangelicals are terribly cruel. It's horrible that we often run Crisis Pregnancy Centers, trying to help young girls with unwanted babies to deal with it without abortions
Click to expand...
Oh pul-ease... I believe that's more about keeping them from getting an abortion than caring about them. What kind of help are they offered once they leave? Do you give them financial support? Free medical for the mother and baby? If so, for how long, if not, why not?

We are heartless for running soup kitchens and outreach programs and paying for them out of our pockets.
Click to expand...
So you can proselytize to them.

Our cruelty knows no bounds when we send missionaries into the Amazon, bringing not only the Bible but medical care and other aid to primitive natives at great personal peril.
Click to expand...
Blah, it's all so you can proselytize and nothing more.

Sometimes, we even go around knocking on doors and inviting people to come to church on Sunday...OH THE HORRORS!!!
Click to expand...
Again, so you can proselytize. You don't do anything without that string attached which means it's not genuine.

You want a free meal? You gotta take the pamphlet, or sit and listen to the wonders of your religion...
 
Slippery Slope said:
But not more than the religious have managed to kill in the name of their various gods.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. The most wide spread mass killings occurred in the 20th Century in Countries where God was either erased by, or secondary to the state. NK, Cuba, USSR, China, Nazi Germany, Vietnam, Cambodia...
 


Religion is a key agent of socialization which helps one develop their moral cumpis.

All things being equal, not having that agent of socialization renders one less developed than someone with religion.

All notions that the typical religious person relies on a book to give their morality to them are fallacious at best. Also, the notion that the many contradictions in the bible somehow invalidate it are equally irrelevant.

The bible is a tool, like any text book. Referring back to it is no different, I repeat, NO different than referring back to a source or reference in any debate.

***
As a tangent: If the bible can be interpreted however one chooses, then all interpretations rationalizing unethical actions are the fault of the interpreter, not an inanimate book.

Neither do guns kill people or my keyboard misspell words.
 
Last edited:

You obviously know NOTHING of the charity that the Catholic Church performs.
 
And there are others who are doing their best to characterize the non-religious tyrants with atheists and leftists as people who want to sit and sing songs while the terrorists saw someones head off. Of course you don't have any rant for them, eh...

Yeah, it's all about getting your way but the opposition to that are all militant atheists. :roll: I'm tired of that... :boohoo:

Yeah, thank the progressives for toning down your religion because it used to spawn the medieval equivolent of suicide bombers....

So the US waterboarded some known terrorists. We also waterboard our own soldiers in SERE training. This is not the same "torture" as that word typically evokes, images of saws and blades, knives and severed body parts.
Click to expand...
What an intellectually dishonest statement not to mention that the comparative has pretty much been bebunked, but like you righties and especially you Con-xians are known for, you will continue to use fallacious arguments.

Cry some more please because I really enjoy hearing a majority claim that the minority is oppressing them. :roll:
 
WillRockwell said:
Obviously, history's mass murderers outrank the Catholic Church in body count.
Click to expand...
I disagree... the reasons are vastly different. Well, at least in debate because it all revolves around power but the religious claim their deeds in gods favor while the non-religious claim their deeds for various purposes.

Not only that but if you count the OT as part of the xian religion, which it is if it's the same god as they claim, then you can include the wars in the bible as well as all the wars where a cross was held aloft.
 
Last edited:
Jerry said:
Why then even mention genuine mental disorder at all?
Click to expand...

Because you asserted a premise which stated that my ethical soundness of mind was more in question due to my lack of religion.
Why do religious folks oppose abortion: because we hate women.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see where I've ever said that.

Why do religious folks oppose gay marriage: because we hate gays.
Click to expand...
I've accused individuals of hating gays, but not religious groups.

Why do religious folks support torture: because we're clinically insane (according to you).
Click to expand...

If that's what you think I said then you missed the point, the words, and everything in between.


If mental instability was not your best argument, then why lead with it? You straw-man yourself.
Click to expand...
You put forth the premise that religion leads to a more ethically sound mind, Jer. Go read back. The ONLY thing I did was call b.s.

As for the poll, I've said I don't put much stake in it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…