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Religion

ravens24

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It seems to me that people are believing in God less and less. Soon enough, America will become like Europe. If there is no God, then nothing is wrong. I see this as a Liberal squawking point. Liberals..those who think anything to do with God is bad and that nothing is wrong and everything should be legalized. Why isnt mureder legalized? I mean..theres no God, so there was no commandment ever saying not to kill somebody. I mean..what if it was you're religion. Oh wait thats right..they alread stand up for terrorists rights. Silly me. How bout that ACLU, the people in charge there would be delighted to find out theres a God when they die, and that the morals and values that are taught in the Bible were really true!
 

Kandahar

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Don't you think that society can figure out that murder is bad on its own, without the aid of a 2000-year-old book?
 
F

FallingPianos

ravens24 said:
It seems to me that people are believing in God less and less. Soon enough, America will become like Europe. If there is no God, then nothing is wrong. I see this as a Liberal squawking point. Liberals..those who think anything to do with God is bad and that nothing is wrong and everything should be legalized. Why isnt mureder legalized? I mean..theres no God, so there was no commandment ever saying not to kill somebody. I mean..what if it was you're religion. Oh wait thats right..they alread stand up for terrorists rights. Silly me. How bout that ACLU, the people in charge there would be delighted to find out theres a God when they die, and that the morals and values that are taught in the Bible were really true!
umm... most liberals actually do believe in god. in the US, most of them are even christians.

as for atheists, have you ever had any discussion with an athiest about ethics/morals? you might be suprised to find out that atheists do have them, dispite not believing in God.

its a christian misconception that God is needed in order for the world to have meaning, or for morals to exist, but thats simply not true.
 

ravens24

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Hopefully..Reppin' Baltimore i see. *high five*
 

SouthernDemocrat

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ravens24 said:
It seems to me that people are believing in God less and less. Soon enough, America will become like Europe. If there is no God, then nothing is wrong. I see this as a Liberal squawking point. Liberals..those who think anything to do with God is bad and that nothing is wrong and everything should be legalized. Why isnt mureder legalized? I mean..theres no God, so there was no commandment ever saying not to kill somebody. I mean..what if it was you're religion. Oh wait thats right..they alread stand up for terrorists rights. Silly me. How bout that ACLU, the people in charge there would be delighted to find out theres a God when they die, and that the morals and values that are taught in the Bible were really true!
What are you talking about? Jesus Christ is a Liberal. Have you ever bothered actually reading the Gospels? In the Bible, there are less than 10 verses dealing with the subject of Homosexuality. THERE ARE SOME 3000 DEALING WITH HELPING THE POOR! In fact, there are more verses on helping the poor than on any other subject of the Bible. What do you think? That Jesus is some greedy, hate mongering, materialistic, self righteous long haired version of Jerry Falwell? I mean come on, you right wingers have to disregard nine tenths of the Bible in order for it to somehow fit your world view.

Look at the core teachings of the Gospels of Jesus Christ:

  • Help the poor and less fortunate.
  • Avoid materialism.
  • Peace.
That is liberalism in a nutshell.
 

ravens24

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Good points...

But who's been truley focusing on that lately.

Perhaps, some people helping to rebuild New Orleans...but I mean..in political office...
 

Naughty Nurse

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ravens24 said:
Good points...

But who's been truley focusing on that lately.

Perhaps, some people helping to rebuild New Orleans...but I mean..in political office...
Perhaps you should be promoting humanism?
 

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Kandahar said:
Don't you think that society can figure out that murder is bad on its own, without the aid of a 2000-year-old book?
In a word - NO ! Even in the very old books, murder is rationalized.
People should read new books.
 

talloulou

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ravens24 said:
It seems to me that people are believing in God less and less.
You think there's more atheists? Or you think more and more people are just against organized religion? I know I myself wouldn't say I think there's no God. I would say I have no idea if there is one or two or three or aliens or something else I can't understand. I do think there's SOMETHING I just haven't a clue what?:rofl But just because I haven't picked an organized religion or book to follow that doesn't mean I'm not spiritual.

Plus I don't believe people need religion to tell them whats right and wrong. You know in your heart what's right and wrong.

Soon enough, America will become like Europe. If there is no God, then nothing is wrong.
Is there really no God in Europe? Is THAT what's going on over there?:rofl Seriously though does Europe have high poll numbers of atheists? I never heard that before.

I mean..theres no God, so there was no commandment ever saying not to kill somebody.
Well are people in Europe killing each other more than people in more religious places?
 

alphamale

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ravens24 said:
It seems to me that people are believing in God less and less. Soon enough, America will become like Europe. If there is no God, then nothing is wrong. I see this as a Liberal squawking point. Liberals..those who think anything to do with God is bad and that nothing is wrong and everything should be legalized. Why isnt mureder legalized? I mean..theres no God, so there was no commandment ever saying not to kill somebody. I mean..what if it was you're religion. Oh wait thats right..they alread stand up for terrorists rights. Silly me. How bout that ACLU, the people in charge there would be delighted to find out theres a God when they die, and that the morals and values that are taught in the Bible were really true!
The only basis for morality I've heard from the vast majority of liberals is whatever the majority votes for in a democracy, or "situational ethics", which means they decide by some mysterious means what they should do, on the fly, as situations arise.
 

talloulou

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alphamale said:
The only basis for morality I've heard from the vast majority of liberals is whatever the majority votes for in a democracy, or "situational ethics", which means they decide by some mysterious means what they should do, on the fly, as situations arise.
This whole conversation is kind of goofy. I'm a conservative who usually votes Republican and I am very non-religious. However, I have researched many religions and usually know more about the various religions than religious people do which is kind of odd and off topic. I guess my point is many non-religious and atheists I know are very knowledgable about many religions.

Furthermore I know tons of religious liberals. Of course most fundamentalist types tend to be Republican but the majority of religious people in this country are not strict fundamentalists. I don't think I actually know any strict fundamentalists.

Most religious people in this country are as varied in their viewpoints as anyone else. I know tons of christians who use birth control. I know gay christians. I know christians that believe being gay is a sin. I know christians who say they believe the bible is the word of God, I know christians who don't see the bible as literally being gods word, and I know christians that don't seem to have read the bible at all. Some of these people are liberal, some are conservative, and most are somewhere in between.
 

Navy Pride

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I believe a lot of Liberals wish there was no God........After all they want him out of everything...It seems like every day they are complaining about something with God in it be it the Pledge of Allegiance or in the schools......

The Mantra of the sixties by the left was "If it feels good do it."

I myself am not that religeous but I am Go fearing and I think if the "Big fella" in the sky is looking down on what is happening in this world he can not be happy at what he sees...........

Take heed people, you reap what you sow..........
 

SouthernDemocrat

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Navy Pride said:
I believe a lot of Liberals wish there was no God........After all they want him out of everything...It seems like every day they are complaining about something with God in it be it the Pledge of Allegiance or in the schools......

The Mantra of the sixties by the left was "If it feels good do it."

I myself am not that religeous but I am Go fearing and I think if the "Big fella" in the sky is looking down on what is happening in this world he can not be happy at what he sees...........

Take heed people, you reap what you sow..........
Indeed you do. If you ever do choose to become more religious, and study the words of Christ, you will find that much of what you typically decry against and call socialism and liberalism, are what he called his people to do. As I pointed out earlier, there are less than 10 verses in the entire Bible that deal with the subject of Homosexuality. However, there are over 3000 verses on the poor. In fact, no other subject is mentioned more often. You will find no words at all in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that endorse preemptive war. You will find no words at all in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that tells us that greed and materialism is ok.
You will find no words at all in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that even mention homosexuality or any of the other wedge issues the religious right consistently uses to divide us.

What you will find is a message of living a simple life, of peace, and of helping the less fortunate among us.

If God is not happy with he sees in our actions, it is probably due to our greed, our self-righteousness, our war mongering, our materialism, and our exploitation of his creation. You see the religious right spend massive sums of money on “the cultural war” yet very little on helping those who are in dire need. If they really were concerned with doing God’s work, then instead of erecting bill boards on “the war on Christmas” or saving “traditional marriage”, they would put those resources into maybe helping the 15 million children who every year die of starvation. In the time it takes you to read this post, several children under the age of 5 will die of starvation.
 

Navy Pride

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SouthernDemocrat said:
Indeed you do. If you ever do choose to become more religious, and study the words of Christ, you will find that much of what you typically decry against and call socialism and liberalism, are what he called his people to do. As I pointed out earlier, there are less than 10 verses in the entire Bible that deal with the subject of Homosexuality. However, there are over 3000 verses on the poor. In fact, no other subject is mentioned more often. You will find no words at all in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that endorse preemptive war. You will find no words at all in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that tells us that greed and materialism is ok.
You will find no words at all in the Gospels of Jesus Christ that even mention homosexuality or any of the other wedge issues the religious right consistently uses to divide us.

What you will find is a message of living a simple life, of peace, and of helping the less fortunate among us.

If God is not happy with he sees in our actions, it is probably due to our greed, our self-righteousness, our war mongering, our materialism, and our exploitation of his creation. You see the religious right spend massive sums of money on “the cultural war” yet very little on helping those who are in dire need. If they really were concerned with doing God’s work, then instead of erecting bill boards on “the war on Christmas” or saving “traditional marriage”, they would put those resources into maybe helping the 15 million children who every year die of starvation. In the time it takes you to read this post, several children under the age of 5 will die of starvation.
No mention of homosexuality because the word was not invented then but there is plenty of mention about man laying with man and Sodom and I am sure Christ would not take to lightly of killing in the womb which are beliefs of the liberal left..........

You call yourseld SD so I believe you probably not as Godless as the typical Northern or Westward liberal but if you are judging by the way Senatorial and Presidential elections ahve gone in the last few years you must be feeling pretty lonely.......
 
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SouthernDemocrat

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Navy Pride said:
No mention of homosexuality because the word was not invented then but there is plenty of mention about man laying with man and Sodom and I am sure Christ would not take to lightly of killing in the womb which are beliefs of the liberal left..........

You call yourseld SD so I believe you probably not as Godless as the typical Northern or Westward liberal but if you are judging by the way Senatorial and Presidential elections ahve gone in the last few years you must be feeling pretty lonely.......
Actually, there are less than 10 references in the whole Bible about the act of homosexuality. As I pointed out earlier, twice now, there are over 3000 on helping the poor. Abortions were mentioned in the Old Testament. There are scriptural arguments against them and ones that are indifferent. We do know that the Jews did not believe that life began until birth and the baby took their first breath of air. Just the same, as I pointed out earlier, anyone who has ever read the Gospels would know that the teachings of Christ are essentially a handbook for liberalism.
 

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talloulou said:
You think there's more atheists? Or you think more and more people are just against organized religion? I know I myself wouldn't say I think there's no God. I would say I have no idea if there is one or two or three or aliens or something else I can't understand. I do think there's SOMETHING I just haven't a clue what?:rofl But just because I haven't picked an organized religion or book to follow that doesn't mean I'm not spiritual.

Plus I don't believe people need religion to tell them whats right and wrong. You know in your heart what's right and wrong.



Is there really no God in Europe? Is THAT what's going on over there?:rofl Seriously though does Europe have high poll numbers of atheists? I never heard that before.



Well are people in Europe killing each other more than people in more religious places?
I think it is both the fact that their are more Atheists and people against organized religion. Here is a post I wrote awhile ago. It seems to apply here.

The Graduate Center, a doctorate-granting institution for The City University of New York, conducted a survey that categorized the religious identification of 50,281 random American households. It was put together in 2001, as a follow up to a similar survey done in 1990. The primary question was, “What is your religion, if any?” Then, when appropriate, the same was asked about the spouse/partner. The interviewer did not provide a list of suggested answers; respondents were expected to answer on their own. The results were very interesting. Christians made up 76.5% of the interviewees. This was a significant decrease from the 86.2% in 1990. The category of Other Religious Groups remained somewhat steady at 3.7% compared to 3.3%. This sect consisted of, but was not limited to, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, and Pagans. Probably the most surprising outcome was people who answered, “No religion.” This response was combined with Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, and Secular. That population has more than doubled since 1990 from 14.3 million to 29.5 million. It is the fastest growing faction in the survey with 14.1% of Americans claiming it, compared to 8.2% last decade.

http://http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm

Also, I have read about a growing trend in Europe of Atheism. I cannot find anything now to back that up, but I will look.
 

Kandahar

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alphamale said:
The only basis for morality I've heard from the vast majority of liberals is whatever the majority votes for in a democracy, or "situational ethics", which means they decide by some mysterious means what they should do, on the fly, as situations arise.
I don't think I've ever, in my entire life, heard anyone of any political ideology claim that morality is based on the whim of the majority. Stop using straw man arguments.
 

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SouthernDemocrat said:
Actually, there are less than 10 references in the whole Bible about the act of homosexuality. As I pointed out earlier, twice now, there are over 3000 on helping the poor. Abortions were mentioned in the Old Testament. There are scriptural arguments against them and ones that are indifferent. We do know that the Jews did not believe that life began until birth and the baby took their first breath of air. Just the same, as I pointed out earlier, anyone who has ever read the Gospels would know that the teachings of Christ are essentially a handbook for liberalism.
I am not that versed on reading the bible but there is a lengthly passage on Sodom and Gomorrah and I would be willing to be that Jesus Christ would not approve of murder in the womb............
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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ravens24 said:
It seems to me that people are believing in God less and less.
Well, we're becoming savvy shoppers and some lies are easier to see than others. Fewer people are buying the God product. That's a good thing. The more con men out of work, the better, I say.


ravens24 said:
Soon enough, America will become like Europe.
Nah, that won't happen. Too many people like me, here. Europe's big problem is socialism, which shares many of the faults of the other religions.

ravens24 said:
If there is no God, then nothing is wrong.
There is no god and nothing is wrong with people recognizing this simple fact.
ravens24 said:
I see this as a Liberal squawking point. Liberals..those who think anything to do with God is bad and that nothing is wrong and everything should be legalized. Why isnt mureder legalized? I mean..theres no God, so there was no commandment ever saying not to kill somebody. I mean..what if it was you're religion. Oh wait thats right..they alread stand up for terrorists rights. Silly me. How bout that ACLU, the people in charge there would be delighted to find out theres a God when they die, and that the morals and values that are taught in the Bible were really true!
Hmmm...you need to sort out all your pet assumptions, give'em ID numbers and leashes, and then only take one for a walk at a time. That would make it easier for the rest of us to respond to them.

What morals and values in the Bible? There are none.
 
T

The Real McCoy

SouthernDemocrat said:
What are you talking about? Jesus Christ is a Liberal. Have you ever bothered actually reading the Gospels? In the Bible, there are less than 10 verses dealing with the subject of Homosexuality. THERE ARE SOME 3000 DEALING WITH HELPING THE POOR! In fact, there are more verses on helping the poor than on any other subject of the Bible. What do you think? That Jesus is some greedy, hate mongering, materialistic, self righteous long haired version of Jerry Falwell?
If hyperbole is your game, I'll play too.

What do you think? That Jesus is some dope smoking, sexaholic, communist long haired version of Jesse Jackson?


SouthernDemocrat said:
I mean come on, you right wingers have to disregard nine tenths of the Bible in order for it to somehow fit your world view.
Left wingers would have to do the same.


SouthernDemocrat said:
Look at the core teachings of the Gospels of Jesus Christ:

  • Help the poor and less fortunate.


  • Um.... the conservatives I know donate far more to charity than the liberals I know. YMMV.


    SouthernDemocrat said:
    [*]Avoid materialism.
    Yea.. the Hollywood liberal elites are regular Buddhists.

    Wasn't aware that materialism was a tenet of conservatism.




    SouthernDemocrat said:
    [*]Peace.
Let's see...

Wilson... WW1
Roosevelt... WW2
Truman... Korea
Kennedy/Johnson... Vietnam



SouthernDemocrat said:
That is liberalism in a nutshell.
Hardly.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
There is no god and nothing is wrong with people recognizing this simple fact.
Then you should have no problem providing me with evidence supporting this fact.



Scarecrow Akhbar said:
What morals and values in the Bible? There are none.
Yea... lying, stealing, cheating, murder etc. should be encouraged.
 

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Tough to know where to start on this one, since so much here has been reduced to a level reminiscent of belicose sports fans pointing fingers at the other team.

I doubt too many people here have read anything by George Lakoff, (and especially the crowd whose offerings consist mainly of "you liberals" followed by a condemnation) but in his Moral Politics, he describes the two differing models for moral systems based upon conservatism and liberality. Makes quite a bit of sense to me.

Now, there are certainly people who provide terrible examples of liberality and conservatism, as there are plenty of people calling themselves "liberal" who are so immersed in post modern moral relativism that they end up holding completely contradictory beliefs. There is also no end of conservatives for whom the notion of morality is so rigid and so arbitrary that as long as another person has told them the rules, they will follow these rules without so much as one whit of understanding. Not all liberals spout nonsense such as the folks of ANSWER et al, and not all conservatives are the second coming of Fred Phelps, and despite people's attempots to demonize others according to a label they apply (and in doing so, puff up their own ego), liberality and conservatism are both based upon moral systems. There are moral liberals as well as moral conservatives, and those of either stripe considerably lacking.


One does not need religion to understand morality, and the fact of a person being religious does not guarantee they act in a moral fashion. One needs to look no further than the immoral acts of those driven by their zealous interpretation of their religion to realize that the adoption of such guarantees little.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Gardener said:
I doubt too many people here have read anything by George Lakoff
I just bought Moral Politics at Barnes & Noble last week. Excellent book.
 

tryreading

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SouthernDemocrat said:
What are you talking about? Jesus Christ is a Liberal. Have you ever bothered actually reading the Gospels? In the Bible, there are less than 10 verses dealing with the subject of Homosexuality. THERE ARE SOME 3000 DEALING WITH HELPING THE POOR! In fact, there are more verses on helping the poor than on any other subject of the Bible. What do you think? That Jesus is some greedy, hate mongering, materialistic, self righteous long haired version of Jerry Falwell? I mean come on, you right wingers have to disregard nine tenths of the Bible in order for it to somehow fit your world view.

Look at the core teachings of the Gospels of Jesus Christ:

  • Help the poor and less fortunate.
  • Avoid materialism.
  • Peace.
That is liberalism in a nutshell.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.
 

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The Real McCoy said:
Then you should have no problem providing me with evidence supporting this fact.
No problem at all. Spend the rest of your life turning over rocks. Don't stop until you caught god. Then come back and we'll talk again.

If you can't prove there's a god, clearly you can't argue against those who claim that it's a figment of your imagination.

Remember, you're the one making the assertion that something exists without evidence. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

The Real McCoy said:
Yea... lying, stealing, cheating, murder etc. should be encouraged.
So you agree, then that the bible is no guide for morality. Very good.

Meanwhile, since God is nothing but a figment of your imagination, and of the imaginations of those people that wrote a very flawed book, why should that book be relied upon as a moral guide?
 
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