Religion of Peace?

[Surenderer]

More blaming all the problems in the world on religion...or in this case Islam :roll: but if I were to point out to you that much of the blood shed in the 20th century was the result of atheist ideologues. It's ironic that Islam gets the blame for violence, but critics of religion are silent when a secular or atheistic faith--such as that of Stalin or Mao Tse-tung wreaks destruction and death on millions upon millions of lives. it is not religion per se that perpetrates violence, but a certain mindset that seeks to use an ideology or a religious justification to control people's thinking and restrain the most fundamental freedoms ........that is why even though you have 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet you only see less than 1% of them killing Jews or Christians or suicide bombing etc because try Muslims fight against this....Last I checked 1% (if not fewer) wasnt close to a majority. As far as Jesus (pbuh) stands he is also a Prophet in Islam....if a Muslim doesnt believe in Jesus then he isnt a Muslim Contrary to what you may say/think , Jesus' words about "turning the other cheek" after someone hits you on the right cheek are dealing with personal insults, not with acts of violence or force. Rather, Jesus said, "When insulted, be willing to take another insult." Assuming that persons in Jesus' time were generally right-handed, a hit on the right cheek is a back-handed slap, which even today in the Middle East expresses a gross insult. This idea of a slap as an insult is seen in Lamentations 3:30: "Let him give his cheek to the smiter and be filled with insults." This slap would be roughly equivalent to spitting in someone's face in our society now ask yourself if Jesus is saying, "Don't defend yourself when you are attacked" or "Don't help a woman who is being raped" or "Don't defend your country when it is being attacked."(he isnt) He is not negating the judicial principle of an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth";(from the old testement) he speaks against the abuse of that judicial principle to justify personal retaliation or vengeance.(remember Jesus said he came to confirm the O.T. not to change it) Dont try to tell a Muslim about Jesus bro....we try to be "Christlike"..... we pray as he prayed say and "peace be upon you" as he greeted people also.... If I were to ask on these boards who/what has caused the most deaths in the 20th century Most of you would probably guess Hitler. but he is rated #3. Some then guess Stalin and I inform you that most scholars place him at #2 with 20 million killed. Almost no one gets #1 who, of course, is Mao who starts with an estimated 40 million. I then point out that the top two were Communists and Hitler was a radical proponent of Social Darwinism. All of these ideologies are based on atheistic systems not Islam


peace

 

[shuamort]

More blaming all the problems in the world on religion...or in this case Islam :roll: but if I were to point out to you that much of the blood shed in the 20th century was the result of atheist ideologues. It's ironic that Islam gets the blame for violence, but critics of religion are silent when a secular or atheistic faith--such as that of Stalin or Mao Tse-tung wreaks destruction and death on millions upon millions of lives. it is not religion per se that perpetrates violence, but a certain mindset that seeks to use an ideology or a religious justification to control people's thinking and restrain the most fundamental freedoms ........that is why even though you have 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet you only see less than 1% of them killing Jews or Christians or suicide bombing etc because try Muslims fight against this....Last I checked 1% (if not fewer) wasnt close to a majority. As far as Jesus (pbuh) stands he is also a Prophet in Islam....if a Muslim doesnt believe in Jesus then he isnt a Muslim Contrary to what you may say/think , Jesus' words about "turning the other cheek" after someone hits you on the right cheek are dealing with personal insults, not with acts of violence or force. Rather, Jesus said, "When insulted, be willing to take another insult." Assuming that persons in Jesus' time were generally right-handed, a hit on the right cheek is a back-handed slap, which even today in the Middle East expresses a gross insult. This idea of a slap as an insult is seen in Lamentations 3:30: "Let him give his cheek to the smiter and be filled with insults." This slap would be roughly equivalent to spitting in someone's face in our society now ask yourself if Jesus is saying, "Don't defend yourself when you are attacked" or "Don't help a woman who is being raped" or "Don't defend your country when it is being attacked."(he isnt) He is not negating the judicial principle of an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth";(from the old testement) he speaks against the abuse of that judicial principle to justify personal retaliation or vengeance.(remember Jesus said he came to confirm the O.T. not to change it) Dont try to tell a Muslim about Jesus bro....we try to be "Christlike"..... we pray as he prayed say and "peace be upon you" as he greeted people also.... If I were to ask on these boards who/what has caused the most deaths in the 20th century Most of you would probably guess Hitler. but he is rated #3. Some then guess Stalin and I inform you that most scholars place him at #2 with 20 million killed. Almost no one gets #1 who, of course, is Mao who starts with an estimated 40 million. I then point out that the top two were Communists and Hitler was a radical proponent of Social Darwinism. All of these ideologies are based on atheistic systems not Islam


peace

That's all fine and dandy, but are these atheist idealogues basing their motives on their atheism or on general motivations? Juxtapose that against the motives of the 9/11 hijackers or the Palestinian/Israeli conflict where without religion, where there'd be much less conflict.

 

[shuamort]

By the way, how long has this irrelevent poll been on this thread?

Poll Options
Should anyone coming to the U.S. HAVE to know english?
Hell yes! It's about time....
Hell no! Let 'em all in like roachs.
Who care's they should retain as much of their homland as they can.
Close the doors & start sending some back.

I hope the author voted "no" because it would be a big shot of irony considering all of the grammatical errors in English.

 

[Surenderer]

That's all fine and dandy, but are these atheist idealogues basing their motives on their atheism or on general motivations? Juxtapose that against the motives of the 9/11 hijackers or the Palestinian/Israeli conflict where without religion, where there'd be much less conflict.

Thats what I'm trying to say....Even though I'm not an atheist I dont use the murderers I posted to judge all of them by.Nor should the same be done in the name of Christianity or Islam..As far as the Palestine/Israel situation there would still be Wars because it's about land and thats what most wars are fought over(in my opinion)


peace

 

[Joe ohhnoo]

My dearest ,
Thank you for your response. I am not athiest and I am not Godless because I met God in two occasions and I realized that to approach him , you should be naked, with no assumption no religion. Worshiping a man ( Jesus, Budda or Muhamad) No matter how great they may be is an insult to Reality and God. About turning cheek, I had problem with that verse until I experienced it directly with the God and from God (?) himself. What it points at is unity and oneness, what you do to others you do to yourself. And Hardly anyone can Follow that verse ( including myself), which is okay, you do better as you grow. We neeed to forgive and heal the mind... Religion may be a stepping stone but... It is a restrain for seeing the reality. At a point, You have to drop it, to see the reality, be, Naked, Naked, Naked in the mind. Mohamad God, threatens followers to be good as he define goodness but the God I met was lovely and when I attacked him based on my ignorance, he did not punish me and he did not send me to hell or heaven, because there is no hell beside the one we made here and now. Love does not attack and threaten, It does not judge. But threat and judgement are the pivot which Islam is based on ( Ego or devil use fear and threat). There is no Hell, All is Love, what happens to you, you do it to yourself (only here and now). You are hearing this from one who has been in the same state as Jesus, although I could not last, but I am getting there. Forgive others and love them... Let them be who they are, let them experience and learn, let them believe in what they like to believe... I believe in my Dog as my God........ But at the same time I know that is not true, that is a path to wholeness because God is everything. Tell your religious friends that, God does not need a defender to defend him. Leave his children alone, he is present and nothing we may do can effect his kingdom.
The only blasphemy is harming his children and spreading fear towards him which is love.

Regards and love

 

[tr1414]

Wow.... where's your attendant? Anyone who believes their dog is G-d needs help. As for our other deep thinkers here... have fun thinking your deep thoughts while trains blow up you can keep saying "but it's only 1% of the Muslims." Bullshit. I wonder what kind of person would keep saying that when THEY WANT TO KILL US... a liberal do gooder. And if it makes you feel better to make fun of my writing knock yourself out. As for me, my eyes are wide open, I know whats going on.... whatever our "Muslim scholars" say.

 

[Surenderer]

Wow.... where's your attendant? Anyone who believes their dog is G-d needs help. As for our other deep thinkers here... have fun thinking your deep thoughts while trains blow up you can keep saying "but it's only 1% of the Muslims." Bullshit. I wonder what kind of person would keep saying that when THEY WANT TO KILL US... a liberal do gooder. And if it makes you feel better to make fun of my writing knock yourself out. As for me, my eyes are wide open, I know whats going on.... whatever our "Muslim scholars" say.

Perhaps your shallow mind cant comprehend deep thinking :doh Oh well I tried to have a intelligent conversation with you Only one of us is preaching hatred though....remember that :2wave:


peace

 

[Surenderer]

My dearest ,
Thank you for your response. I am not athiest and I am not Godless because I met God in two occasions and I realized that to approach him , you should be naked, with no assumption no religion. Worshiping a man ( Jesus, Budda or Muhamad) No matter how great they may be is an insult to Reality and God. About turning cheek, I had problem with that verse until I experienced it directly with the God and from God (?) himself. What it points at is unity and oneness, what you do to others you do to yourself. And Hardly anyone can Follow that verse ( including myself), which is okay, you do better as you grow. We neeed to forgive and heal the mind... Religion may be a stepping stone but... It is a restrain for seeing the reality. At a point, You have to drop it, to see the reality, be, Naked, Naked, Naked in the mind. Mohamad God, threatens followers to be good as he define goodness but the God I met was lovely and when I attacked him based on my ignorance, he did not punish me and he did not send me to hell or heaven, because there is no hell beside the one we made here and now. Love does not attack and threaten, It does not judge. But threat and judgement are the pivot which Islam is based on ( Ego or devil use fear and threat). There is no Hell, All is Love, what happens to you, you do it to yourself (only here and now). You are hearing this from one who has been in the same state as Jesus, although I could not last, but I am getting there. Forgive others and love them... Let them be who they are, let them experience and learn, let them believe in what they like to believe... I believe in my Dog as my God........ But at the same time I know that is not true, that is a path to wholeness because God is everything. Tell your religious friends that, God does not need a defender to defend him. Leave his children alone, he is present and nothing we may do can effect his kingdom.
The only blasphemy is harming his children and spreading fear towards him which is love.

Regards and love

You may not be Atheist but anyone who says:

Arrest all the time bombs ( Muslims) indifference to their statue as citizen or not and send them back to their mother land and tell them go and enjoy your beloved ( evil) Islam there.

and

Get ready and be the first in the future fire work... To save the world from dark future, Tehran and Pakistan and some other section of Muslims world need to be Neutron-ized..

That aint the speaking of someone who follows Jesus(pbuh) or Buddah's teachings.Your "the sky is falling" rhetoric is as bad as anything Tehran Mullah's may be preaching



peace

 

[tr1414]

All of the following are in Muhammad's own words.

Ishaq:204 "Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselfs to in swearing allegiance to Allah? In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind."

Ishaq:471 "We are steadfest trusting Him. We have a Prophet by whom we will conquer all men."

Ishaq:586 "Red blood flowed because of our rage."

Qur'an 47:4 "When you clash with unbelieving infidels (non-Muslims) overpower and kill them. When you have thouroughly subdued them, make them prisoners in bondage. Thus you are commanded. Allah lets you fight in order to test you. Those who are slain in Allah's Cause will never have their deeds go to waste."

Ishaq:441 "A sharp sword in the hand of a brave man kills his adversary."

Ishaq:405 "It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah's army is bound to disgrace you. Infidels do you not learn?"

Tabari VIII:13 "These cities were conquered in the time of Umar, Uthman and others, Muslims used to say, Conquer for yourselfs whatever seems good to you; for by Allah you have conquered no city but that Muhammad was given its keys beforehand."

Qur'an 2:216 "Jihad is ordained for all Muslims. Warfare is ordained for you."

Qur'an 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Allah has distinguished his Jihadists and will reward them."

Bukhari:V4B52N196 "Allah's Apostle said, I have been orderd to fight the people till they say none has a right to be worshipped but Allah."

Qur'an 47:4 "So, when you clash with the unbelieving infidels, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of thme. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom them based upoon what benefits Islam until they worship only Allah. Thus you are commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infedels until they submit to Islam."

Bukhari:V4B52N50 "A single endeavor of fighting in Allah's Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it."

Noble Qur'an 2:190 Footnote "Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam ans in one of the pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfull this duty, dies as a hypocrite."

Muslim:C40B20N4676 "Jihad is compulsory"

Bukhari:V4B51N72 Our Prophet told us about the message of Allah: "Whoever amongst us is killed will go to Paradise. Umar asked the Prophet, is it true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and the unbelievers will go to the Hell Fire? The Prophet said, "Yes"

Bukhari:V4B52N94 The Prophet said, "Whoever spends two things in Allah's Cause, (his life & his wealth), will be called by all the gatekeepers of Paradise. They will say, Oh, so-and-so! Come here. Abu Bakr said, O Allah's Apostle! Such persons will never die. I hope you are one of them."



Real peaceful huh? Islam is a religion of hate, not pease & love. Jesus only talked aout love. But of cause the libs JUST DON'T GET IT. They never will. Hey libs... remember "peace in our time" WAKE UP! But I'm not posting for the nipple ring set with us, it's for those of you who know right from wrong & don't care about all the PC crap. For those of you who have Bibles, check out Ezekiel 37:16-17. We need G-d in our lives now more than ever. I hope everyone can find him.... just "knock & He will answer"

 

[Surenderer]

Of course the argument could be made that Jesus(pbuh) was a liberal. His philosophy, based in compassion, equality,inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace and - most importantly - love, is 100% Liberal. He rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others way of life...Maybe you could learn to be more "Christlike" in your thinking. Jesus said" Do not judge, lest you too be judged" and For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" [Matthew 7:1 & 2.] Surely you cant say that's what you have been displaying spewing your hatred on this board



peace

 

[Imudman]

Of course the argument could be made that Jesus(pbuh) was a liberal. His philosophy, based in compassion, equality,inclusion, forgiveness, tolerance, peace and - most importantly - love, is 100% Liberal. He rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, the amassing of wealth without social balance, and the personal judging of others way of life...Maybe you could learn to be more "Christlike" in your thinking. Jesus said" Do not judge, lest you too be judged" and For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" [Matthew 7:1 & 2.] Surely you cant say that's what you have been displaying spewing your hatred on this board



peace

And the argument could also be made that Jesus was the most conservative man who ever lived. After all, he claimed to be God, from Whom all righteous authority comes. After all, liberalism is at its core nothing more than man usurping authority from God...

 

[Surenderer]

Good point......except thats where the Muslim-Christian religion begin to seperate...Muslims dont believe Jesus(pbuh) claimed to be God so........




peace

 

[Imudman]

Good point......except thats where the Muslim-Christian religion begin to seperate...Muslims dont believe Jesus(pbuh) claimed to be God so........




peace

Well, if you're quoting the Bible to make your point, yet you don't believe it's veracity, then your point becomes rather pointless...

 

[tr1414]

Well, if you're quoting the Bible to make your point, yet you don't believe it's veracity, then your point becomes rather pointless...

Yes it's good to be Christ-like but MY point is that Islam is anything but. You seem to gloss over everything thats in the Qur'an & say but this & but that.... MY point is simple..... Islam is NOT a religion of peace.

 

[Surenderer]

Well, if you're quoting the Bible to make your point, yet you don't believe it's veracity, then your point becomes rather pointless...

No I'm reacting to what others who DO believe in the Bible have been saying in this thread....oh and Muslims dont believe that Jesus(pbuh) said that in the Bible either


peace

 

[Surenderer]

Yes it's good to be Christ-like but MY point is that Islam is anything but. You seem to gloss over everything thats in the Qur'an & say but this & but that.... MY point is simple..... Islam is NOT a religion of peace.

I have never said "but" anything...all I have done is put the Surah's you have quoted in context for those here who wish to understand and not just spew hatred....as Jesus(pbuh) would want

 

[Imudman]

No I'm reacting to what others who DO believe in the Bible have been saying in this thread


peace

The point of making a point to someone is to convince them your point is correct. So if you're using the Bible to make your point, then your point rests on the veracity of the Bible. If you don't believe your source, then obviously you don't believe your own point. Since you don't believe the Bible, yet use it to support your point, then your point about Jesus being a liberal rests on absolutely nothing...

 

[Imudman]

Yes it's good to be Christ-like but MY point is that Islam is anything but. You seem to gloss over everything thats in the Qur'an & say but this & but that.... MY point is simple..... Islam is NOT a religion of peace.

I'm not glossing over anything. I really don't know enough about Islam to make that kind of judgment. There's no doubt some muslims are not peaceful, but the same could be said of christians...

 

[Surenderer]

The point of making a point to someone is to convince them your point is correct. So if you're using the Bible to make your point, then your point rests on the veracity of the Bible. If you don't believe your source, then obviously you don't believe your own point. Since you don't believe the Bible, yet use it to support your point, then your point about Jesus being a liberal rests on absolutely nothing...

Well 1st let me say that as a Muslim I do believe in Jesus(pbuh) What I dont believe in is the Crucifixtion which is seperate from his works on Earth. Jesus's miracles in the Bible are also in the Koran(and then some) Thats where me and the Bible "split ways"


thanks for letting my clarify...peace

 

[Surenderer]

I'm not glossing over anything. I really don't know enough about Islam to make that kind of judgment. There's no doubt some muslims are not peaceful, but the same could be said of christians...

I'm sure his comments were meant towards me

 

[Imudman]

Well 1st let me say that as a Muslim I do believe in Jesus(pbuh) What I dont believe in is the Crucifixtion which is seperate from his works on Earth. Jesus's miracles in the Bible are also in the Koran(and then some) Thats where me and the Bible "split ways"


thanks for letting my clarify...peace

That's interesting. What about his other miracles? And BTW, I appreciate learning that about your religion...

 

[Surenderer]

That's interesting. What about his other miracles? And BTW, I appreciate learning that about your religion...

All Jesus(pbuh) miracles from the Bible are in the Koran for a summary of the differences check out here:

http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/7.html


Hope this helps


peace

 

[Imudman]

All Jesus(pbuh) miracles from the Bible are in the Koran for a summary of the differences check out here:

http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/7.html


Hope this helps


peace

Okay, I looked at the link, read a few pages and bookmarked it for future reference. That's a pretty good source for people to find out information. It deepened my respect for Islam, but led me to conclude there is a basic misunderstanding among moslems about Christianity. Of course, there is a basic misunderstanding of Christianity among christians too, lol.

But seriously, what jumped out to me the most were two things: "God did not condemn mankind because a sin was committed by a couple at the beginning of time..." This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the christian concept of sin. At the fall, man voluntarily chose to step out of God's will, and condemned himself. According to the story, we as descendants suffer the consequences as well, because we inherit the legacy of sin from our first parents. It's not God condemning a bunch of innocent people, rather it's mankind wrestling with the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin.

Secondly, I noticed common ground in the veneration of the Blessed Mother of Jesus. This is very encouraging to me, and I hope that somehow God uses it to promote tolerance and understanding between our two religions...

 

[Surenderer]

Okay, I looked at the link, read a few pages and bookmarked it for future reference. That's a pretty good source for people to find out information. It deepened my respect for Islam, but led me to conclude there is a basic misunderstanding among moslems about Christianity. Of course, there is a basic misunderstanding of Christianity among christians too, lol.

But seriously, what jumped out to me the most were two things: "God did not condemn mankind because a sin was committed by a couple at the beginning of time..." This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the christian concept of sin. At the fall, man voluntarily chose to step out of God's will, and condemned himself. According to the story, we as descendants suffer the consequences as well, because we inherit the legacy of sin from our first parents. It's not God condemning a bunch of innocent people, rather it's mankind wrestling with the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin.

Secondly, I noticed common ground in the veneration of the Blessed Mother of Jesus. This is very encouraging to me, and I hope that somehow God uses it to promote tolerance and understanding between our two religions...

It's sad all the fighting actually because our religions arent really that far apart (although 3rd parties..both Christian and Muslim would have you think otherwise)

At the fall, man voluntarily chose to step out of God's will, and condemned himself. According to the story, we as descendants suffer the consequences as well, because we inherit the legacy of sin from our first parents.

In Islam, a sin is an act against the will of God. We have the ability to abide by His will and this is the meaning of the word Islam. Still we have the ability to ignore His will or deliberately oppose it; due to the fact that God has given us freedom - though within limits). I guess the difference between our schools of thought is that Islam teaches that all humans are innocent by birth and they become sinful only when they consciously commit a sin. Another important point to bear in mind about the Islamic concept of sin is that one man’s sin cannot be transferred to another; nor can the reward due to a person be transferred either. Every individual is responsible only for his or her actions, for God is never unjust. This is made clear in the following in Surah 17, verse 25:

{Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger [to give warning].}

Secondly, I noticed common ground in the veneration of the Blessed Mother of Jesus. This is very encouraging to me, and I hope that somehow God uses it to promote tolerance and understanding between our two religions...

[/QUOTE]

Indeed she has a whole Surah(chapter) named after her in the Koran there are only 8 named after people out of 114 and she and her father both have one named after them...for more in Islam about Mary you can read here:

http://sl.starware.com/r?u=http://e...y_in_Islam&qry=mary+islam&rnk=4&aff=inkt&v=95



peace

 

[ShamMol]

Yes it's good to be Christ-like but MY point is that Islam is anything but. You seem to gloss over everything thats in the Qur'an & say but this & but that.... MY point is simple..... Islam is NOT a religion of peace.

If followed correctly, which it is by about 95% I would think of all those who are Muslim, it is. One of the five pillars is peace. That exact idea-peace. The extremists believe that there are six pillars the last of which is jihad which is a righteous war. This righteous war according to that side wipes out the pillar of peace.

And don't post those quotes again, sick of seeing that sickness. Your point has been made with them, but they are invalidated by the fifth pillar.