Religion of Peace?

[Salah ud Deen]

Those that don't know history will be condomed to repeat it.

Yeap, and the US is stepping the same path as the Weinmar Republic.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I kind of agree. I also miss the secret "meaning" you ascribe to the sacred texts.

What is a different interpretation of Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.” or Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.” or Bukhari:V1B1N6 “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.” or Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.” ?

Exactly how many other interpretations of the word "kill" do you have other than the meaning of the word kill? Kill is not love it is just death and destruction. Thats it.

I do not claim that there are other interpretations of these verses, but I would put forth that these many religions have parts that command violence and also have parts that command peace.

This has nothing to do with the meaning of the text. The Christian Bible holds many sinster passages about murder and destruction, but the idea of Christianity is not murder and destruction. I would contend the same about Islam. I believe with the proper amount of time and the proper catalyst, the text of Islam will change in the same way that the the text of Christianity changed: Hermenuetics. People making sense of things in their religions that in all senses and purposes don't make sense. It has happened in most all religions.

I have read the bible dozens of times, The Koran three times and im working myself up to read the Torah.

If you've read the Bible, you've read the Torah.

I have a feeling it will be the same bs as in the other two. Religion sucks and is just an excuse to not take self responsibility for ones own actions. We are a sad little world and tearing ourselves apart for little or no reason. There are plenty of resources to go around if they were managed correctly.
If we got on the same page we should not have a problem feeding and educating(not madrassas) children,we should all be busy exploring science, math and philosophy. We should be funding medical and alternative energy research on massive scales, etc.
Perhaps a one world government is a good idea. The communication infrastructure is nearly there to support such a thing. Maybe someday but not anytime soon as long as Moses is busy declaring the philistines the enemy of the people of God and Allah is responding in kind. As long as there can be no peace between two ancient peoples we will all remain puppets on the strings of war.

I believe there can be peace between these two peoples.

 

[mike49]

Gandhi>Bush,

I do not claim that there are other interpretations of these verses, but I would put forth that these many religions have parts that command violence and also have parts that command peace.

This has nothing to do with the meaning of the text. The Christian Bible holds many sinster passages about murder and destruction, but the idea of Christianity is not murder and destruction. I would contend the same about Islam. I believe with the proper amount of time and the proper catalyst, the text of Islam will change in the same way that the the text of Christianity changed: Hermenuetics. People making sense of things in their religions that in all senses and purposes don't make sense. It has happened in most all religions.

The difference between Islam and Christianity is great. It cannot be compared. It has proven itself in Christianity that it cannot be used in a useful way to completely run a society. If a government decides to run itself from the New Testament it will immediately run into trouble for lack of standing within the text. It is just not there and you would quickly be making things up. Christianity supposes a power other than itself... "Give unto Caesar",...."whosoever is without sin shall cast the first stone" Stuff like that.

In Islam it itself is government, with laws and punishments for specific crimes. Islam has a hatred of other religions. In the Koran other religions are hell-bound and are to be dealt with harshly on this earth.

To expect Islam to travel the path of other religions and give way to moderation, is to expect a miracle to happen because the holy books of Islam are a "system"...a way of life. You cannot remove certain things and have other things make any sense. When muslims have a certain percentage in the population they will begin to change that place into an Islamic system because this is what is called for...Islamic law. According to Islam the world will come under Islamic law, with other religions either destroyed or paying a special tax. I don't say these things to bad-mouth Islam...It's just the way it is.

Your belief that Islam is like other religions is without standing and is based on your opinion. And, I might add that your opinion is false. If your arguement is one in comparing religions, then I will not debate you further because it is like 'apples and oranges'. They cannot be compared. If you wish to debate if and how Islam can be modernized then I can debate you because that is possibly something that can be debated.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Gandhi>Bush,

The difference between Islam and Christianity is great. It cannot be compared. It has proven itself in Christianity that it cannot be used in a useful way to completely run a society. If a government decides to run itself from the New Testament it will immediately run into trouble for lack of standing within the text. It is just not there and you would quickly be making things up. Christianity supposes a power other than itself... "Give unto Caesar",...."whosoever is without sin shall cast the first stone" Stuff like that.

The Old Testament has many laws. Read numbers, it's full of them. Christianity can control a country no better than Islam can.

In Islam it itself is government, with laws and punishments for specific crimes. Islam has a hatred of other religions. In the Koran other religions are hell-bound and are to be dealt with harshly on this earth.

How would you explain this?

Surah 2

“Verily, they who believe (Muslims), and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabeites뾵hoever of these believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord: fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they be grieved."

To expect Islam to travel the path of other religions and give way to moderation, is to expect a miracle to happen because the holy books of Islam are a "system"...a way of life. You cannot remove certain things and have other things make any sense. When muslims have a certain percentage in the population they will begin to change that place into an Islamic system because this is what is called for...Islamic law. According to Islam the world will come under Islamic law, with other religions either destroyed or paying a special tax. I don't say these things to bad-mouth Islam...It's just the way it is.

Not necessarily "Islamic" law, but God's law in the end times. In the end of days, God's law will rule the Earth. That's what the Quran says. It has nothing to do with oppression. Islam is a religion of submission. To be a Muslim means to submit, but no one is to be forced to submit.

Have you ever read the Quran?

Your belief that Islam is like other religions is without standing and is based on your opinion. And, I might add that your opinion is false. If your arguement is one in comparing religions, then I will not debate you further because it is like 'apples and oranges'. They cannot be compared. If you wish to debate if and how Islam can be modernized then I can debate you because that is possibly something that can be debated.

Why can they not be compared?

 

[mike49]

Gandhi>Bush,

You quote Surah 2. But do you know what it means? I think not. Your quote deals with people who believe these other religions, but who have not yet recieved the message of muhammad.

Here is a muslim site that will help you understand. I'll give a quote and then a link to the whole page:

"The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad (sws) was not only a Prophet (nabi) but also a messenger (Rasu'l) of Allah. The Qur'an tells us that when Allah sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on Allah's earth if they reject the messenger. It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu'l). It tells us that when the Al-knowing Allah decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear of the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection but still are persistent in their rejection then Allah directs his prophet to migrate from the area and then he destroys all those who have rejected his messenger. The Qur'an refers to the peoples (nations of the messengers of old - Noah, Hood, Lot, Shoaib, Saaleh and Moses (pbuh)- and narrates the result of their rejection. It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (sws) that if they don't accept the message of Allah's messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them. (Surah al-Qamar the whole Surah especially verse no 43-45)"

Understanding Islam

The religions cannot be compared because in Islam the church and state are not seperate. They cannot be seperate. Islam is a way of life. You are taking your view of "religion" and bringing that into your view of Islam.

Read from that site I provided. It explains Islam as muslims understand it. Not how we want Islam to be or what we think it to be...but how muslims practice Islam and how they read the text.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Maybe if there are a few less deaths in the name of the religion they may be percieved as peacful. Or maybe if there leaders stop preaching the overthrow or death of anybody that does not agree with them they might be percieved as peaceful. Maybe if they stopped allowing people to bastardize there religion in the blood of innocent people they might be percieved as peacful. Thats a whole lot of maybes though.................

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Gandhi>Bush,

You quote Surah 2. But do you know what it means? I think not. Your quote deals with people who believe these other religions, but who have not yet recieved the message of muhammad.

It does not say that in Surah 5.

"The Qur'an tells us that Muhammad (sws) was not only a Prophet (nabi) but also a messenger (Rasu'l) of Allah. The Qur'an tells us that when Allah sends His messenger in a people, these people are not allowed to live on Allah's earth if they reject the messenger. It tells us that these people are given time in which to make up their minds and to present all their objections against the messenger (Rasu'l). It tells us that when the Al-knowing Allah decides that these people have been given adequate time and that they are now absolutely clear of the truthfulness of the messenger and thus are not left with any excuse for their rejection but still are persistent in their rejection then Allah directs his prophet to migrate from the area and then he destroys all those who have rejected his messenger. The Qur'an refers to the peoples (nations of the messengers of old - Noah, Hood, Lot, Shoaib, Saaleh and Moses (pbuh)- and narrates the result of their rejection. It declares to the direct addressees of Muhammad (sws) that if they don't accept the message of Allah's messenger (Muhammad) their fate shall be no different from those nations that have gone before them. (Surah al-Qamar the whole Surah especially verse no 43-45)"

This man is one who does not address the the Surah I had in mind. I said Surah 2. That was incorrect. The correct reference to the verse I posted it Surah 5 verse 69.

The verses he mentions out of the Surah al-Qamar (Surah 54) do not conflict with Surah 5:69. If you would like to carry on with this theological discussion, perhaps you could find verses in the Noble Quran to that refute my claim?

The religions cannot be compared because in Islam the church and state are not seperate. They cannot be seperate. Islam is a way of life. You are taking your view of "religion" and bringing that into your view of Islam.

One could argue that Christianity is a way of life in the same sense that Islam is a way of life.

Read from that site I provided. It explains Islam as muslims understand it. Not how we want Islam to be or what we think it to be...but how muslims practice Islam and how they read the text.

No it represents how these particular people practice Islam. It's like saying that Jerry Falwell represents all Christians.

 

[128shot]

Ghandi>Bush, I'd like to start out by saying that, you are awesome.





Now, back to the question.


I think it is a religion of peace, by extensively doing research into the muslim community and about the Koran, its seems very accepting of other religions untill judgement, inwhich no religion that believes in itself really says any other religion will go with them. Book of revelations says non-believers will die and go to hell. Koran is no different in that aspect.



I also find alot of mulsims are more, dare I say tolerant, than the average christian I meet.

 

[mike49]

Gandhi>Bush,


5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Now read further along:

5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Read this:

A Non Muslim asked this very important question

You criticised the site I linked to...I can accept that, but that site is not the most traditional? that I could have linked to. If you have a better site that you think explains things...please bring it forth. I'm always interested in other varients in Islamic thought.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Gandhi>Bush,


5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Now read further along:

5:72 They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Let us read this from 5:69-5:72. All together:

(69)Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

(70)We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

(71)They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

(72)They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

To me that whole passage would suggest that, regardless of your religion, if you do wrong God will "forbid you from the garden."

Read this:

A Non Muslim asked this very important question

This author would suggest that Allah is defined as the God of Islam, when Allah is defined as God. The Arabic to English translation of Allah is God. Not God according to the Quran. "Those who believe in God and the last day and work righteousness" Not those who follow Islam when it hits the fan.

You criticised the site I linked to...I can accept that, but that site is not the most traditional? that I could have linked to. If you have a better site that you think explains things...please bring it forth. I'm always interested in other varients in Islamic thought.

My knowledge of Islam comes from my knowledge of the Quran, my conversations with Muslims, and the academic analysis of Islam we are doing in my Major World Religions class.

 

[mike49]

Gandhi>Bush,

I would certainly go back to your muslim friends and ask what the text means that we are discussing. I'm sure it is based on something that you could post here and enable an explanation for their belief.

I have read the Koran. But, my understanding is not based on what I think of a specific passage. When I run into things that I want more info on...I go to other sources that explain the verse. My main object is to understand Islam as practiced...not my version of the text. Not how I interpret it. Because that way would be meaningless in regard to understanding how Islam is practiced.

I agree with you that the text as written seems to imply that all have a chance to get to Paradise. But, I don't believe that it is a true belief to think that way.

I also have another problem in regard to your take on this. If the text is to mean what you understand it to be then why have Islam at all. If people can believe whatever they want either Jewish or Christian or Muslim, then what is the sense in Islam? Why become muslim? One is taken care of anyway.

I doubt the text means what you think it does...I have never seen it interpreted the way you do by any authority.

 

[mike49]

Gandhi>Bush,

Here is another page that deals with the basic topic we are discussing:

Islam Questions & Answers
www.islam-qa.com
Question Reference Number:: 21534
Title: Attitude of Islam towards other religions

Home > Basic Tenets of Faith > Schools of Thought and Religions > Religions >
Question:


I have some questions about Islam, could you explain them for me? What does Islam say about people of other religions? Are all non-Muslim people regarded as sinners because they do not follow Allaah and Islam? Can any non-Muslim person enter Paradise without following Islam?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

The ruling of Islam concerning other religions is that they are all either fabricated and false, or abrogated.

The fabricated and false religions are those like the ancient Arabian practise of worshipping idols and stones.

The abrogated religions are those which were taught by the Prophets who came before our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They are valid in that their origins are from Allaah, but Islam came and took their place, not with regard to basic beliefs such as the existence of God, the angels, Paradise and Hell, for these are matters which all the Messengers have in common, but there are differences between them with regard to ways of worshipping and drawing close to Allaah by means of prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, alms, etc. The later followers of the Prophets have fallen into deviations of belief and shirk, but Islam came to point that out and bring people back to the correct belief taught by the earlier Prophets.

It was narrated that Abu’l-Darda’ (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: ‘Umar brought some pages of the Tawraat to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, these are some pages of the Tawraat which I took from a brother of mine from Banu Zurayq.” The expression of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) changed, and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Zayd – who had been shown the adhaan [in a dream] – said, “Has Allaah taken away your mind? Do you not see the expression on the face of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?” ‘Umar said, “We are pleased with Allaah as our Lord and with Islam as our religion and with Muhammad as our Prophet and with the Qur’aan as our guide.” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) relaxed [?}, and said, “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Moosa were to come among you and you were to follow him and leave me, you would have gone far astray. You are my share among the nations and I am your share among the Prophets.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 15437).

Ibn Hajar said:

All the isnaads of this hadeeth are such that they could not be taken as evidence individually, but when taken together they prove that this hadeeth is correct. (Fath al-Baari, 13/525).

The evidence for that is the verse in which Allah says (interpretation if the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

Imam al-Tabari said in his commentary on this verse:

What Allaah means by that is that whoever looks for a religion other than Islam to follow, Allaah will never accept that from him, “and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” meaning, one of those who deprived themselves of their share of the mercy of Allaah.”

(Tafseer al-Tabari, 3/339)

Islam does not regard them (followers of other religions) only as sinners, but as kaafirs (disbelievers) who will abide forever in the Fire of Hell, as stated in the verse quoted above.

He (the kaafir) will be a loser in Hell, and will not come of out it. It is not possible for a kaafir to enter Paradise unless he becomes Muslim. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, those who belie Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle (which is impossible). Thus do We recompense the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists, sinners)”

[al-A’raaf 7:40]

It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One is Whose hand is my soul, no one of this nation, Jew or Christian, will hear of me and not believe in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell.” (Narrated by Muslim).

We ask Allaah to guide the seekers of truth from other religions to look into the religion of Islam and its Book, the Qur’aan. May Allaah guide them and open their hearts to enter Islam.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

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Source:Islam Q&A

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One is Whose hand is my soul, no one of this nation, Jew or Christian, will hear of me and not believe in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell.” (Narrated by Muslim).

The thing in quotations: Is that a verse from the Quran? If so, do you know it's location?

 

[mike49]

The thing in quotations: Is that a verse from the Quran? If so, do you know it's location?

The "Narrated by Muslim" is Hadith collected by Imam Muslim.

Here is his collection in an English Translation: Translation of Sahih Muslim

Imam Muslim's collection is accepted as authentic.

It is very hard to take a verse from the English translation of the Koran and seperate it and then devine meaning from it. It's not that it cannot be done, but one has to be sure of it's exact meaning. In order to do it you have to study the Koran and Sunnah. The sayings and deeds of the prophet are compiled and those that are backed up with multiple sources are considered genuine Hadith. Hadith is where Islam is to be understood because it details the life and doings of the prophet. His is considered the perfect life, the words of the Koran brought to life. The Koran is to be understood by the deeds and sayings of the prophet as shown by the various hadith.

Certain collections of Hadith are considered authentic. Muslim is one. Bukhari is another. There are others.

 

[akyron]

I do not claim that there are other interpretations of these verses, but I would put forth that these many religions have parts that command violence and also have parts that command peace.

In any case most if not all religions are screwed up in their own way. Man needs to take responsibility for his own actions.

This has nothing to do with the meaning of the text. The Christian Bible holds many sinster passages about murder and destruction, but the idea of Christianity is not murder and destruction. I would contend the same about Islam. I believe with the proper amount of time and the proper catalyst, the text of Islam will change in the same way that the the text of Christianity changed: Hermenuetics. People making sense of things in their religions that in all senses and purposes don't make sense. It has happened in most all religions..

I disagree. The text has a direct bearing on the actions of the followers.
If Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” was saying "Lets all go out for a falafel!" I think there would be less shootings and bombings.

A big difference here is that the bible has the new testament to soften it up and Islams addendums tend to make violence more justifiable. I am not against Islam. I am against religions that do not encourage you to think for yourself. Islam is so certain and there is no room for questions. Christianity can be just as oppresive as evidenced by the Inquisition. Every bit of this can be blamed on a failing of men to see beyond the text or even to think for themselves.

If you've read the Bible, you've read the Torah...

I was referring to the Jewish Tanakh which does not encompass the
deuterocanonical books so of course you made me type it all out anyway. :/

I believe there can be peace between these two peoples.

I sincerely hope so but realistically peace does not appear likely as long as the situation is portrayed as Moses and friends vs. the Philistines. Just because it has never worked before is no reason to lose hope I guess.

 

[cnredd]

I was referring to the Jewish Tanakh which does not encompass the deuterocanonical books so of course you made me type it all out anyway. :/

[Sarcastic Moderator mode]

We will NOT have that kind of language in here!

It's bad enough I saw someone use "kerfuffel" the other day, but this crosses the line...

[/Sarcastic Moderator mode]

:2wave:

 

[akyron]

My main object is to understand Islam as practiced...not my version of the text. Not how I interpret it. Because that way would be meaningless in regard to understanding how Islam is practiced.

I agree.
I only have a problem with it when its practiced with a belt of Semtex under their bisht.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

In any case most if not all religions are screwed up in their own way. Man needs to take responsibility for his own actions.

I agree with this.

I disagree. The text has a direct bearing on the actions of the followers.

Really? I know many many christians, though I know none that send their wives away at the "unclean" time of the month. I don't know of any christian churches that do not allow their women to speak in church. I don't know of any church Hermenuetics. People change their text as time changes them. It will happen with Islam as it has happened with Christianity.

If Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.” was saying "Lets all go out for a falafel!" I think there would be less shootings and bombings.

For one thing it says "Pagans", not "disbelievers". The beginning of the verse, which for some reason didn't make it into your post, says "when you are not in alliance with them". I think this changes the meaning just a little, though still not something This post is good and has excellent points. of. I do not believe that if this verse had escaped the Quran that things would be different in the Middle East.

A big difference here is that the bible has the new testament to soften it up and Islams addendums tend to make violence more justifiable. I am not against Islam. I am against religions that do not encourage you to think for yourself. Islam is so certain and there is no room for questions. Christianity can be just as oppresive as evidenced by the Inquisition. Every bit of this can be blamed on a failing of men to see beyond the text or even to think for themselves.

I agree with this. I think the problem is in the people rather than in the text or in the Religion.

I sincerely hope so but realistically peace does not appear likely as long as the situation is portrayed as Moses and friends vs. the Philistines. Just because it has never worked before is no reason to lose hope I guess.

I don't think that is how the problem is viewed. Muslims follow Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and the other prophets just as the Jews or Christians do.

 

[mike49]

Gandhi>Bush,

It is actually the text...and not the people. The text guides the people.

The text creates a system...that system is carried forth by the people.

When one thinks of the practice of Islam you cannot compare it to the other faiths. The only way that can be done is if you are Koran-Only. There are very few Muslims who are Koran-Only. Mainstream Islam is not just the Koran but hadith also. That is where the trouble really is...the hadith.

It is a great source of pride in Islam that it has not been corrupted over time. They actually look down on other faiths because of the modernization. Do not expect Islam to change...it has not since it's beginnings. I would sooner expect Islam to collapse than to change.

You are correct that Islam follows Moses and Jesus, etc., but just saying the name Moses or Jesus does not mean they follow in the same way as Jews or Christians do, Moses and Jesus. There is a different understanding in regard to Moses and Jesus. Their purpose is different in the Koran. Muslims do not believe that the other Holy Books are accurate. They believe these books have been corrupted. So, although in the Koran these figures are mentioned their purpose is not the same.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Gandhi>Bush,

It is actually the text...and not the people. The text guides the people.

The text creates a system...that system is carried forth by the people.

When one thinks of the practice of Islam you cannot compare it to the other faiths. The only way that can be done is if you are Koran-Only. There are very few Muslims who are Koran-Only. Mainstream Islam is not just the Koran but hadith also. That is where the trouble really is...the hadith.

It is a great source of pride in Islam that it has not been corrupted over time. They actually look down on other faiths because of the modernization. Do not expect Islam to change...it has not since it's beginnings. I would sooner expect Islam to collapse than to change.

You are correct that Islam follows Moses and Jesus, etc., but just saying the name Moses or Jesus does not mean they follow in the same way as Jews or Christians do, Moses and Jesus. There is a different understanding in regard to Moses and Jesus. Their purpose is different in the Koran. Muslims do not believe that the other Holy Books are accurate. They believe these books have been corrupted. So, although in the Koran these figures are mentioned their purpose is not the same.

I have obtained a copy of the Hadith today. When I am finished reading, you will have my response.

 

[akyron]

Really? I know many many christians, though I know none that send their wives away at the "unclean" time of the month. I don't know of any christian churches that do not allow their women to speak in church. I don't know of any church Hermenuetics. People change their text as time changes them. It will happen with Islam as it has happened with Christianity..

I bet it happened at one time or another. The text is the foundation for the problem and the people make it even worse.

I do not believe that if this verse had escaped the Quran that things would be different in the Middle East...

You are right. A thousand other verses that espouse the same bile must be excised as well.

I don't think that is how the problem is viewed. Muslims follow Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and the other prophets just as the Jews or Christians do.

I disagree. It is all petty and like two brothers fighting over who Dad likes best.

The true nature of the enmity between the Muslims and the Jews

"we ask Allaah to save the weak and oppressed believers and to humiliate the Jews and polytheists and grant victory to the people of Tawheed. May He expel the Jews from Bayt Al-Maqdis (Jerusalem), humiliated and defeated. "

The worst part is the people involved are ignorant as to how silly some of these "grievances" are. There is no desire for peace here but to "humiliate and defeat"

I guess its true you can be too close to a mountain to see it.