Religion and World Peace

[Conaeolos]

I'm unable to post links on this device, but you can google 'religious wars' and see many of them if you're interested.

I think we could have a good discussion on an example when you get a chance, preferably more modern. Happy to look up details.

What I see is religion is generally unifying. Certainly involved and playing a role in some conflicts but ones that were more or less tribal/political in nature and certainly sparked by more than some religious division. Religion and culture do often overlap and blame assigned for conveinent reasoning.Rwanda genocide for example is still painted as mostly tribal (as that was the justification) yet the population density explosion and economic troubles no doubt were bigger actual drivers. In fact, I would argue likely if removed would have avoided the horrfic events.

I mean let's take an obvious example like the crusades. Are we pretending a non religious united mid east was going to skip attacking Europe sans religion or vice-versa? Perhaps only as a consequence of being more divided and waring amongst each other. Yes Europe united some under the christian banner against islam but mostly as an attempt to stop them warring each other. And united Islam's aggression against Byzantium hardly religious either. Seems to me, the culture is simply expansionistic and religion the means to unite long enough to make it a reality.

Compare these religious war cases to cases where a united religion lead to the avoidance of war. On the balance, I find it as conflict driver a hard assertion to swallow. Not saying I even dismiss it - I just find it bold. Afterall, we like our fighting, show us the issue, we'll show you the war.

The argument that non-relgious people have reduced prison presences I find more difficult point to argue. That said, religions have an impressive record of rehabilitation for the prison population. I am not seeing the same with secular opinions.

Anyway you cut it, it certainly not an easy "alternate history" to predict.

 

[soylentgreen]

Religion has caused wars. So if you get rid of all religion there won't be any wars.

This is one of the central atheist beliefs. But look at it logically. Have wars ever been caused by anything besides religion? World War I, World War II, the Korean war, the Vietnam war.

Wars described in the Old Testament, none of them about religion that I can think of.

Tribal wars -- often over territory, none over religion that I know of.

Religious wars have occurred in certain times and places in the West. The crusades, for example. But I don't think religion caused wars in the East.

So I think atheists ought to think more carefully. About this, and about everything else. You tend to be very careless in your thinking.

There is an old saying, "There are no atheists in a fox hole." Religion may not cause a war but it does help to keep a war going by believing god is on your side when the bullets start flying. The wars in the bible may not have been about religion but they were one and all had god on the side of the victors.

 

[Logicman]

With all of the differing religious theologies, some of which direct their followers to go forth and convert all to believe as they do, some even using physical force, is there any scenario in which it is conceivable world wide peace can ever be achieved ?

You're not going to have world peace until Christ returns and gets rid of all the godless atheists and agnostics, Christ-bashing liberal nitwits, the criminals, the miscreants, the terrorists, and all the wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[it's just me]

I can honestly say, if all lived as JW's do, there would be peace...true world peace...even now, in the violent world we live in, 8 1/2 million do live in peace...refusing to take up arms against our brothers, refusing to take political sides, refusing to lie, cheat or steal from anyone...we are a nation among ourselves of peaceful people taken from among all the nations...

You just proved his point.

 

[Sweden]

Religion has caused wars. So if you get rid of all religion there won't be any wars.

This is one of the central atheist beliefs. But look at it logically. Have wars ever been caused by anything besides religion? World War I, World War II, the Korean war, the Vietnam war.

Wars described in the Old Testament, none of them about religion that I can think of.

Tribal wars -- often over territory, none over religion that I know of.

Religious wars have occurred in certain times and places in the West. The crusades, for example. But I don't think religion caused wars in the East.

So I think atheists ought to think more carefully. About this, and about everything else. You tend to be very careless in your thinking.

to my knowledge neither I, or any other atheist, has ever said that all wars are caused by religion. Can you think of an example that would support your claim? Some, repeat SOME, wars have a religious basis - for example the English Civil War and the even more destructive Thirty Years War - but many do not.

 

[Logician Man]

You're not going to have world peace until Christ returns and gets rid of all the godless atheists and agnostics, Christ-bashing liberal nitwits, the criminals, the miscreants, the terrorists, and all the wolves in sheep's clothing.

I know as many, if not more conservatives that are agnostics and atheists as I do liberals. You're confusing political ideology with religious ideology.

 

[Logicman]

I know as many, if not more conservatives that are agnostics and atheists as I do liberals. You're confusing political ideology with religious ideology.

Nope. I specifically said "Christ-bashing liberal nitwits"

 

[Angel]

Atheist Bad Faith
​

This is the Atheist's OP:

With all of the differing religious theologies, some of which direct their followers to go forth and convert all to believe as they do, some even using physical force, is there any scenario in which it is conceivable world wide peace can ever be achieved ?

This is the atheist's claim ten posts later:

I don't know of any atheist who has ever claimed there would be no wars if there was no religion. Where did you come up with this fallacious assumption ? Do you have a verifiable citation to support your claim ? Is so, please present it. If not, your positive claim can,and will, be summarily dismissed.

Even after a good-faith pantheist pointed this out to our bad-daith atheist here:

Your OP seems to blame war on religion:

"With all of the differing religious theologies, some of which direct their followers to go forth and convert all to believe as they do, some even using physical force, is there any scenario in which it is conceivable world wide peace can ever be achieved ?"

You doubt there can ever be world peace and you blame that on religion. So I don't know what your logic here is supposed to be, Logician Man.

Even after that, the bad-faith atheist persists in bad faith:

You, yourself stated in post #8 religion causes wars. As for your claim I stated there would be world peace if there was no religion, that is something I never claimed in the OP. You really need to improve your reading comprehension skills and give up on trying to read other's minds, as you clearly you are failing quite miserably in that endeavor.

And when Good Faith does not back down:

You implied there could be world peace if there were no religion...

Bad Faith persists:

I didn't imply any such thing. That is all in your head. When you try and fail to put words and thoughts in other's mouths and minds it can make one look rather foolish. I hope for your sake you have learned your lesson in that regard.

So Good Faith merely quotes Bad Faith again:

"With all of the differing religious theologies, some of which direct their followers to go forth and convert all to believe as they do, some even using physical force, is there any scenario in which it is conceivable world wide peace can ever be achieved ?"

As I do at the top of this post, allowing Bad Faith Atheism to condemn itself.
It's the only way.

 

[RAMOSS]

You're not going to have world peace until Christ returns and gets rid of all the godless atheists and agnostics, Christ-bashing liberal nitwits, the criminals, the miscreants, the terrorists, and all the wolves in sheep's clothing.

I guess that means 'never'.

 

[Daisy]

You're not going to have world peace until Christ returns and gets rid of all the godless atheists and agnostics, Christ-bashing liberal nitwits, the criminals, the miscreants, the terrorists, and all the wolves in sheep's clothing.

You do realize when God’s kingdom comes, the political and religious elements who prove themselves false to God's Word, the greedy commercial system, represented by “the merchants”...all things that constitutes part of Satan’s world will be destroyed, don't you?

"For because of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, all the nations have fallen victim, and the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth became rich owing to the power of her shameless luxury.” Revelation 18:3

 

[Omega Man]

With all of the differing religious theologies, some of which direct their followers to go forth and convert all to believe as they do, some even using physical force, is there any scenario in which it is conceivable world wide peace can ever be achieved ?

When you get right down to it, I don't think it's in our nature to remain peaceful. Organisms exist to overtake and consume, sentience notwithstanding. Sure, most of us can live peacefully; but all of us cannot.


OM

 

[Omega Man]

There is an old saying, "There are no atheists in a fox hole." Religion may not cause a war but it does help to keep a war going by believing god is on your side when the bullets start flying.

That saying has nothing to do whatsoever about "keeping a war going". It simply means that it is in our fearful nature to seek a higher power to save our lives when they are on the line.


OM

 

[Fishking]

I tend to agree there will never be world peace, but what compels you to claim religion 'has nothing' to do with it when history clearly indicates otherwise?

Because history clearly indicates that religion has nothing to do with it? The Maoist revolution was atheistic and they killed tens of millions. Most of the wars throughout history had nothing to do with religion.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html

In his hilarious analysis of The 10 Commandments, George Carlin said to loud applause, “More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason,” and many take this idea as an historical fact. When I hear someone state that religion has caused most wars, though, I will often and ask the person to name these wars. The response is typically, “Come on! The Crusades, The Inquisition, Northern Ireland, the Middle East, 9/11. Need I name more?"

Well, yes, we do need to name more, because while clearly there were wars that had religion as the prime cause, an objective look at history reveals that those killed in the name of religion have, in fact, been a tiny fraction in the bloody history of human conflict. In their recently published book, “Encyclopedia of Wars,” authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare. While, for example, it is estimated that approximately one to three million people were tragically killed in the Crusades, and perhaps 3,000 in the Inquisition, nearly 35 million soldiers and civilians died in the senseless, and secular, slaughter of World War 1 alone.

 

[Logician Man]

Nope. I specifically said "Christ-bashing liberal nitwits"

Is it your contention there are no ' Christ-bashing conservative nitwits' ?

 

[soylentgreen]

That saying has nothing to do whatsoever about "keeping a war going". It simply means that it is in our fearful nature to seek a higher power to save our lives when they are on the line.


OM

No, not that saying in particular. But the concept of a god on your side in a war is one that all armies have. A concept that can keep a soldier fighting instead of asking why authority demands his death.

 

[Logician Man]

Because history clearly indicates that religion has nothing to do with it? The Maoist revolution was atheistic and they killed tens of millions. Most of the wars throughout history had nothing to do with religion.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html

So you agree that 'some' wars were fought for religious reasons. Seems we are in agreement.....moving on.....

 

[Daisy]

Is it your contention there are no ' Christ-bashing conservative nitwits' ?

We all know they bash one another...tit for tat...

 

[Good4Nothin]

You do realize when God’s kingdom comes, the political and religious elements who prove themselves false to God's Word, the greedy commercial system, represented by “the merchants”...all things that constitutes part of Satan’s world will be destroyed, don't you?

"For because of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, all the nations have fallen victim, and the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth became rich owing to the power of her shameless luxury.” Revelation 18:3

So we should all be communists? That worked out well ...

 

[OlNate]

Yeah, Sure.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ccused-of-silencing-victims-of-child-abuse-uk

Ya...one ought to be very careful listening to anyone starting out saying "Listen to us, we're perfect"...

And I say that as a Christian.

 

[Rich2018]

Every well-known atheist I know of has said that religion causes wars. It is one of their central beliefs....

Why can't you get this.

Atheists have no shared beliefs - they simply had a shared disbelief that a god or gods exist.

Some Atheists may say that religion causes war, some may not. For myself I think the answer is obvious that it has.

...they also say there can't be a god or gods, because bad things happen to people....

No they don't, because as a group Atheists have no shared beliefs.

Though many would point out that god gets all the credit in Theist minds when something good happens, but none of the blame when something bad happens.

So if a Tsunami wipes out a coastal village somewhere and by some chance a group of people sheltering in a church survive, it's a Miracle and proof of god. Whilst conveniently forgetting that the tsunami had wiped out the rest of the village.

The standard answer to this is "god moves in mysterious ways"

...they also say that life is an accident, and there is no creating force....

No they don't, because Atheists have no shared views

We don't know what created or started life. But that doesn't mean therefore god did it. Atheists reject the notion that god is the default position.

...they also say that consciousness is generated by physical brains, and nothing else....

Again Atheists have no shared beliefs.

For myself, yes I believe that consciousness is generated by the brain.

...the above are central beliefs of atheists today....

Atheists have no central beliefs

They have no shared beliefs at all, save for their lack of faith that god or gods exist.

...if you actually read any of the well-known atheists, you will see that they do have a definite set of central beliefs.

It is not necessary for any Atheist to believe any of the above, simply to disbelieve that there is a god or gods that created everything.


You REALLY need to get this point if ever you're able to understand Atheism.

 

[Daisy]

So we should all be communists? That worked out well ...

Where did I say that? FYI it will be theocracy...true theocracy that will bring peace to the earth...nothing else...that is what Jesus preached when he was here...

"...“I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.” Luke 4:43

 

[<alt>doxygen]

I can honestly say, if all lived as JW's do, there would be peace...true world peace...even now, in the violent world we live in, 8 1/2 million do live in peace...refusing to take up arms against our brothers, refusing to take political sides, refusing to lie, cheat or steal from anyone...we are a nation among ourselves of peaceful people taken from among all the nations...

Most religions teach a version of "thou shalt not kill" but almost none have failed in finding frequent exceptions.

"just war theory"? Yeah, okay. The commandment must have an asterisk I missed or something.

 

[Daisy]

Most religions teach a version of "thou shalt not kill" but almost none have failed in finding frequent exceptions.

"just war theory"? Yeah, okay. The commandment must have an asterisk I missed or something.

No, I don't believe there is...

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Could you be more specific with what big historic examples were religious but not political?

I would venture that many were cases where the political and religious leaders found common cause.

Most religions have a core message of peace and good will. What seems to screw that up is an accompanying message to go out and convert everyone else. The latter may lead people to see "others" as inferior or, in extreme cases, as subhuman.

 

[Daisy]

I would venture that many were cases where the political and religious leaders found common cause.

Most religions have a core message of peace and good will. What seems to screw that up is an accompanying message to go out and convert everyone else. The latter may lead people to see "others" as inferior or, in extreme cases, as subhuman.

Nah, what really screws it up every time is when the religious and the political become intertwined...