Reimagine capitalism?

[Simpletruther]

People being freed up from the daily grind of making money for survival to look towards higher ideals is not a bad thing. If libertarian ideology suffers from that, the world is then better off for that second reason as well.

It is capitalism that freed up their time.

 

[Simpletruther]

We ARE debating modern capitalism. Modern capitalism IS capitalism with extensive regulation and oversight and leashes and muzzles on it. What do you think makes it different from the old capitalism? Without those extensive regulations, there is no difference between it and the old capitalism. You are the one casting some fantasy world where if you leave corporatists free and unfettered it will somehow be different now and pretty little unicorns will jump over rainbows and utopia will bloom.

The success of modern regulated capitalism is a little like the success of vaccines: it has become a victim of its own success. It has been so successful that people start thinking that if they stop childhood vaccinations now, there is no way we are going back to the bad old days of children being born blind and deaf from rubella, dying from measles complications, or getting paralyzed by polio. Not true at all. Without those things, there is absolutely no difference between today and yesterday.

They are not arguing to keep things the same.

 

[bluesmoke]

This is gibberish. We have more regulation than we have ever had.

Apparently, you don't understand what is meant by "modern times" and think that Trump was ineffective in reducing govt regs. Apparently, you don't understand that govt regs have not prevented the advancement of capitalism increasing influence over the distribution of wealth. That the total net of regs, incl tax regs, have resulted in an ever-widening wealth gap. Regulation today, of all kinds, favors the rich and large corps.

 

[NatMorton]

Apparently, you don't understand what is meant by "modern times" and think that Trump was ineffective in reducing govt regs. Apparently, you don't understand that govt regs have not prevented the advancement of capitalism increasing influence over the distribution of wealth. That the total net of regs, incl tax regs, have resulted in an ever-widening wealth gap. Regulation today, of all kinds, favors the rich and large corps.

Actually, I've spent the last 35 years of "modern times" helping manage businesses in capitalist (and not so capitalist) economies all over the world. With that experience I suspect I have a better read on the level of government regulation affecting those markets than do most commenters here on DP, and that experience also tells me that statements like "Regulation today, of all kinds, favors the rich and large corps" are little more than uninformed propaganda.

 

[bave]

Another OP-fail from one of the usual authors of such.

First, capitalism, being hardly “fettered”, is ever widening the wealth gap by taking more profit by paying less for the worker productivity of the goods and services that beget that profit. Capitalism in America is the least “fettered” it’s been in modern times.

So what? How does someone having more than you take away from you? America still has the highest median household income of any major nation.

Secondly, global poverty has been reduced greatly, but not so much in the US, again because the large corps greed has taken more profit while paying less for workers’ labor. Global poverty has been reduced because advanced countries, especially the US, invest in developing (underdeveloped) countries, partnering with US companies that reap the benefits of those contracts. In addition, US companies, to reduce labor cost that would otherwise employ Americans, use foreign labor that raises many people in those nations out of poverty. One of those countries is China, where many people have moved to the middle class and absolutely love buying more expensive American products. Meanwhile, as the % of China’s middle class increased, the US % fell. And that tripling of the GDP? Guess who’s gotten the greatest benefit from that growth – the rich and large corps. That GrossDomesticProduct per capita growth may have been growth in product literally produced by American workers, but it isn’t being shared fairly through wages, as proven by the wealth gap.

The real median household income in the US has increased over the last 40 years.

Lastly, large corps didn’t suddenly become greedy in the last 12 mos. They’ve always been greedy, but most affecting American workers since the mid-1970s when wage growth stopped keeping pace with worker productivity while upper incomes increased considerably more, especially exec salaries/benefit that climbed in multiples. Hence the ever-increasing wealth gap. The pandemic is simply a highly unusual time when companies are able to take advantage by price gouging in classic definition, making the rich and large corps evermore wealthy.

Capitalism works best with democracy, and vice-versa. But over the yrs, capitalism has gradually gotten more than their fair share of the deal while democracy, the people/workers, has gotten less than their fair share. That is proven, again, by the wealth gap.

And yet the US has outperformed global peers on damned near every metric, for the average person. Look at the wage gains in France for the last 40 years as an example.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It is capitalism that freed up their time.

In part, yes

 

[eohrnberger]

And those who only prepare for the last war tend to lose the next one. 21st century capitalism in the United States is nothing like the industrial revolution era. To pretend there is a similarity is foolish in the extreme.

Why can't the left ever debate modern capitalism for what is and not reflexively cast it as some Dickensian fantasy?

I think the left needs to 'reimagine' itself.
The illiberal left we have now is only a source of problems, very will thought out public policies, and vindictive, divisive nastiness at those who have the temerity to have differing political positions and differing political opinions.

 

[ataraxia]

They are not arguing to keep things the same.

I don't think anyone thinks what we have now is perfect. It can always use some improvement. It would take some intelligence and thought though, rather than one-liner simple slogans and easy formulas.

 

[RIP U.S. Democracy]

The WSJ has the best opinion pages in the country, and it's not even close.

Please. The Washington Post is 100 times better than the Wall Street Journal.

The WSJ is now lost in space, their conservative big business ideological belief system has totally collapsed, thanks to the utter insanity of the Tea Party rube movement and Trump.

 

[RIP U.S. Democracy]

For more than 40 years, neoliberalism has dominated economic and political debates, both in the U.S. and globally, with its free-market fundamentalism and growth-at-all-costs approach to economic and social policy,”

LOL...is that so?

Is this why CEO pay has increased 1000% in the past 40 years? Is this why CEOs make over 300 times as much as the average American, the largest disparity in the Western world?

Is this why the middle class has seen virtually no pay increase during the past 40 years?

Just pure garbage.

 

[NatMorton]

LOL...is that so?

Is this why CEO pay has increased 1000% in the past 40 years? Is this why CEOs make over 300 times as much as the average American, the largest disparity in the Western world?

Is this why the middle class has seen virtually no pay increase during the past 40 years?

Just pure garbage.

Hmm, you sure seem to be replying to my posts often for someone who swore he wouldn't be replying to my posts again.

 

[RIP U.S. Democracy]

Hmm, you sure seem to be replying to my posts often for someone who swore he wouldn't be replying to my posts again.

Oops, I forgot. But what I wrote still stands.

 

[NatMorton]

Oops, I forgot. But what I wrote still stands.

Yes, I can tell by all the alerts you're generating for me.

 

[HangLow]

If it weren't for regulation that free-market capitalist wish were up to them to decide, we'd have barefoot children working in shoe factories for scrip that can only be spent at the company store and the free-market would not apply to bail-outs by the govt with public funding.

​

 

[bluesmoke]

View attachment 67377766​

We need more unions. Biden mentioned that, but the Dems are too politically stupid to drive that message home, among many others.

 

[bluesmoke]

So what? How does someone having more than you take away from you? America still has the highest median household income of any major nation.

The real median household income in the US has increased over the last 40 years.

And yet the US has outperformed global peers on damned near every metric, for the average person. Look at the wage gains in France for the last 40 years as an example.

Simply stated, the US tax system and system of wealth accumulation favors the rich and large corps as proved by the ever-widening wealth gap. There is much more to the system than median income. The US has the 4th worst wealth inequality in the world. Besides the fact that despite a high median income in the US, the US income inequality is the 7th worst of the 40 OECD countries.

Damned near every metric but what counts.

 

[bave]

Simply stated, the US tax system and system of wealth accumulation favors the rich and large corps as proved by the ever-widening wealth gap. There is much more to the system than median income. The US has the 4th worst wealth inequality in the world. Besides the fact that despite a high median income in the US, the US income inequality is the 7th worst of the 40 OECD countries.

Damned near every metric but what counts.

Let me get this right. You would rather the middle class guy be poorer but more equal to the rich guy? That's your idea of a win-win? Make everyone poorer. Awesome. That's about what I expect from you.

 

[HangLow]

​

 

[bluesmoke]

Let me get this right. You would rather the middle class guy be poorer but more equal to the rich guy? That's your idea of a win-win? Make everyone poorer. Awesome. That's about what I expect from you.

Quote what I stated that makes you say what you did in reply, and why. I said no such thing as you wrongly interpret.

 

[bave]

Quote what I stated that makes you say what you did in reply, and why. I said no such thing as you wrongly interpret.

Stop.ressurecting.long.dead.posts.

 

[independentusa]

Just a terrific set of observations from an op ed in today's WSJ (sorry, paywall). Wish I could copy the entire piece, but here are the key passages:


Source here.

If our friends on the left lack anything, it's perspective.

What the right lacks is history. The super rich are becoming in this country the "ruling" class. They, the super wealthy, with their campaign funds are pushing the country closer to authoritarianism, It will lead to unfettered capitalism, where they get richer and the rest of us becoming the "working" class with little or no power. In the end, we become what Russia is today. Look at how Russia got there over he past thirty years and you will see where this country is headed if change does not happen. Maybe that is what you want, but want or not, that is where we are going like it or not.

 

[NatMorton]

What the right lacks is history. The super rich are becoming in this country the "ruling" class. They, the super wealthy, with their campaign funds are pushing the country closer to authoritarianism, It will lead to unfettered capitalism, where they get richer and the rest of us becoming the "working" class with little or no power. In the end, we become what Russia is today. Look at how Russia got there over he past thirty years and you will see where this country is headed if change does not happen. Maybe that is what you want, but want or not, that is where we are going like it or not.

No, what we lack are your conspiracy theories and doomsday prophecies.

Russia is not suffering from an excess of capitalism. It's still dealing with its Marxist socialist hangover.

 

[bluesmoke]

Stop.ressurecting.long.dead.posts.

Stop.making.accusation.you.can't.prove.or.you.are.lying.

 

[bave]

I can prove you are resurrecting dead posts.....


Look up.

 

[nota bene]

I can prove you are resurrecting dead posts.....


Look up.

Thread was begun on 2-24, so no posts are "long-dead."