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Regarding Secession...

the_recruit

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So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate... Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act....

Nah, it's not either or. It depends on the grounds for rebellion. Like insubordination. Whether disobeying authority is right or wrong depends on what you're disobeying and why.
 

Chomsky

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As already noted, I agree with the pragmatic assessment of how it really works in the really real world.


However, as a matter of principle and morality, either secession is legitimate or it isn't, and sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander... and arguments that the US had a right to secede from Britain but Texas has no right to secede from the US are merely examples of self-serving propaganda.
Fair enough.

If it comes down to "principle and morality" as you state, then I'd argue one's opinion is all that matters.

And for me, it would depend specifically upon the actors and their circumstance - for example:

- I'm happy to see the revolution & secession of my father's Poland from the USSR in 1989, I supported it, and I proudly & warmly welcomed Lech Welesa to my neighborhood when he first visited the States!

- I was *not* happy to see the mini revolutions and attempted coups that occurred in my household during my kids' recent teen years, so I (respectfully but firmly) quashed those!

It depends on the specific circumstance IMO, but I very much agree with Thomas Jefferson's,

"A little Rebellion is good from time-to-time"
 

Goshin

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Nah, it's not either or. It depends on the grounds for rebellion. Like insubordination. Whether disobeying authority is right or wrong depends on what you're disobeying and why.



As a matter of principle, agreed. Who judges this, though?


Did the US have sufficient cause to break with Britain?


Did Britain have sufficient cause to break with the EU?


Does Texas have just cause to break with the US? What if you don't think so but a majority of Texans did? Isn't it their place to decide their own fate? Free country and so on?
 

Goshin

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...

- I was *not* happy to see the mini revolutions and attempted coups that occurred in my household during my kids' recent teen years, so I (respectfully but firmly) quashed those!

...



:lamo :lamo :lamo


I hear ya! :D
 

longview

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NO mass deportations is not the answer but high wisdom tests for voting nd making decisions is THE ANSWER... all types of people are needed in a nation.. different abilities are needed... a bridge cannot be built without all abilities.. but the unwise must not be allowed to vote that is NOT their ability
Your thought on bridge building, contains an assumption that all parties want the bridge built, and the location of the bridge ends,
are in agreement. One of the main limits of multiculturalism is the assumption that everyone has the same goals, and they may not!
 

Henrin

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Nah, it's not either or. It depends on the grounds for rebellion. Like insubordination. Whether disobeying authority is right or wrong depends on what you're disobeying and why.

If it is right or wrong to defy authority depends entirely on your personal view on authority itself.
 

Tigerace117

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D

I'd honestly say the reason why a area wants to secede plays the biggest role in determining whether or not I think their justified. Usually I'm opposed, but sometimes there's a good reason to do a bad thing.
 

Goshin

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I'd honestly say the reason why a area wants to secede plays the biggest role in determining whether or not I think their justified. Usually I'm opposed, but sometimes there's a good reason to do a bad thing.




Well said. It is a deeply regrettable truth of life that sometimes your only practical options are to do a "bad thing", or suffer a worse thing.
 

Tigerace117

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Unless someone bigger and stronger than him tells him to leave you alone, thus we have a government founded on the recognition of those rights that OUGHT to accrue to humans by their nature, because of their value to most humans. Yes? :)


Public opinion and international opinion might both stand against using the US military against Texas.... indeed, lotta Texans in uniform just the now...

Yeah, but Texans aren't a communal hive mind(I think :mrgreen:)

Not everybody wants to break away from the United States. What happens if part of Texas wants to stay part of the Union and the rest wants to secede?
 

Tigerace117

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Well said. It is a deeply regrettable truth of life that sometimes your only practical options are to do a "bad thing", or suffer a worse thing.

Very true. Overall, though, I'd argue secession should only be an extreme last resort, just as it was in the days of the American Revolution.

No seceding if you don't like who wins the election, in other words.
 

SailaWay

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its not up to the UNWISE to decide what is best even for themselves.. that is why a high wisdom test for voters will push a nation to great progress and why china has changed to conservatism and making their GDP scores to soar
 

Chomsky

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Well said. It is a deeply regrettable truth of life that sometimes your only practical options are to do a "bad thing", or suffer a worse thing.
I knew someone would bring-up the upcoming election ...
 

Henrin

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As a matter of principle, agreed. Who judges this, though?


Did the US have sufficient cause to break with Britain?


Did Britain have sufficient cause to break with the EU?


Does Texas have just cause to break with the US? What if you don't think so but a majority of Texans did? Isn't it their place to decide their own fate? Free country and so on?

An individual person or a group of people judge the merit of their causes. It matters not what some outside person or group of people think, and an individual person or a group of people are not going to usually decide their cause is without merit because anyone disagrees with them.

In effect the only thing that making secession illegal does when push comes to shove is ensure death.
 
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Goshin

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its not up to the UNWISE to decide what is best even for themselves.. that is why a high wisdom test for voters will push a nation to great progress and why china has changed to conservatism and making their GDP scores to soar



Are you in possession of, or do you have access to, a means of testing and quantifying Wisdom?



D&D geeks all over the world await your answer with baited breath. :D
 

SailaWay

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the wise founders states rights was the ANSWER as well as their voting for only the most wise.. with states rights or separated nations rights they all can make their own laws and then COMPARE systems ...we can compare what happened to rhodesia changed to zimbabbee and south africa where they changed to full democracy but the voters IQ dropped like a rock.. their failure helps us understand to make wisdom tests for voters
 

Chomsky

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I'd honestly say the reason why a area wants to secede plays the biggest role in determining whether or not I think their justified. Usually I'm opposed, but sometimes there's a good reason to do a bad thing.
Ah, but is it bad if the cause is good? ;)
 

Goshin

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the wise founders states rights was the ANSWER as well as their voting for only the most wise.. with states rights or separated nations rights they all can make their own laws and then COMPARE systems ...we can compare what happened to rhodesia changed to zimbabbee and south africa where they changed to full democracy but the voters IQ dropped like a rock.. their failure helps us understand to make wisdom tests for voters



A bit too vague for my taste, sorry.


Who decides who is wise enough to vote or hold office? Most people's definition of "wisdom" is "agrees with me". :)
 

Henrin

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Very true. Overall, though, I'd argue secession should only be an extreme last resort, just as it was in the days of the American Revolution.

No seceding if you don't like who wins the election, in other words.

Why is leaving due to an election not good cause? If you have been losing elections for quite some time then likely the country itself is too far gone for you to be happy in it.
 

Goshin

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Ah, but is it bad if the cause is good? ;)



Typically, only time and history will tell. :)



Overall, I'd have to say the American Experiment was a net gain for humanity, though some would disagree.


The "was it worth it?" jury on democracy for Iraq and Afghanistan, in contrast, will still be in deliberations for decades to come perhaps.
 

SailaWay

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google the main IQ expert prof lynn... where he has the IQ's for all... but remember there is a memory part and logic part to the IQ... a high IQ with a great memory can be weak in logic which is the ability to know good from bad.. true from false and value from non value... these are the inventors.. these are the predictors and the prophets.... make a voting test for the highest logical thinkers.... one can see who these are in the SAT math test scores that goes with prof lynns judgement on intelligence...look who scores at the highest level of sat math .. those should be the voters
 

Henrin

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I believe that states do indeed have the right to secede. But, if anyone believes it will be allowed without a fight, they're seriously naive.

I think it's akin to what some people call "natural rights". In reality you only have whatever rights someone bigger and stronger than you allows you to have.

You can only command another person if they agree or if they agree to buckle to your will. If they never buckle then you can never command them.
 

Goshin

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google the main IQ expert prof lynn... where he has the IQ's for all... but remember there is a memory part and logic part to the IQ... a high IQ with a great memory can be weak in logic which is the ability to know good from bad.. true from false and value from non value... these are the inventors.. these are the predictors and the prophets.... make a voting test for the highest logical thinkers.... one can see who these are in the SAT math test scores that goes with prof lynns judgement on intelligence...look who scores at the highest level of sat math .. those should be the voters



Well, I aced the SAT first time with high math scores, so I guess I should be running at least a State by now. :D


However, there are people I know personally who could never pass the SAT because they are not academically inclined, who nonetheless have better common sense and "wisdom" than most college grads, so I don't think I can agree on that as a means of assessment.



Besides, don't you know IQ tests are "racist"? :lamo
 
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