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Regarding Secession...

Goshin

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D
 

Grand Mal

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D

I like it. A movement on the Eastern seaboard to rejoin the United Kingdom, backed up by law. The Torie's Revenge.
Hey, if all those descendants of Tories went back to the Colonies, the Conservative Party in Canada would hardly be able to muster a quorum! Bonus!
 

joG

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I like it. A movement on the Eastern seaboard to rejoin the United Kingdom, backed up by law. The Torie's Revenge.
Hey, if all those descendants of Tories went back to the Colonies, the Conservative Party in Canada would hardly be able to muster a quorum! Bonus!

I like your creativity. On the other hand, the USA could opt to join Scotland in a White Horse move. Sort of like a monstrous montezuma revenge.
 

Goshin

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I like it. A movement on the Eastern seaboard to rejoin the United Kingdom, backed up by law. The Torie's Revenge.
Hey, if all those descendants of Tories went back to the Colonies, the Conservative Party in Canada would hardly be able to muster a quorum! Bonus!


Not exactly where I was going with this, but LOL anyway. :D
 

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D

Why are you bringing this up? Are the Brits coming back?
 

SailaWay

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and this is conservatives against liberals and not men against men.. the liberals have NO POWER to stop the big change coming to stop liberalism... conservatives is mostly men.. the military higher ups mostly conservative and law enforcement.. the liberals house of cards is about to fall...... Liberals has caused the big imbalance of young to old and stubbornly will not admit it and trying to run in the young that has made third world nations...
 

longview

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D
It is only legal if Successful, at which point the new country is recognized.
The secession of the Confederacy was illegal, because they lost the negotiation.
 

Goshin

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Grand Mal

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and this is conservatives against liberals and not men against men.. the liberals have NO POWER to stop the big change coming to stop liberalism... conservatives is mostly men.. the military higher ups mostly conservative and law enforcement.. the liberals house of cards is about to fall...... Liberals has caused the big imbalance of young to old and stubbornly will not admit it and trying to run in the young that has made third world nations...

Whoa! Far out, dude!
 

Goshin

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it is only legal if successful, at which point the new country is recognized.
The secession of the confederacy was illegal, because they lost the negotiation.



B I N G O !!


:rock :2party:




You nailed it!!



Success defines legitimacy, in reality. As Attaturk said, Sovereignty is taken, not given.



So if Texas successfully secedes... then it is legit? :)
 

radcen

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.

So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...

...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)

Discussion invited. :D
I believe that states do indeed have the right to secede. But, if anyone believes it will be allowed without a fight, they're seriously naive.

I think it's akin to what some people call "natural rights". In reality you only have whatever rights someone bigger and stronger than you allows you to have.
 

SailaWay

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too many people are thinking this is like the civil war where it was men against men and the north had more

this is conservatives against liberals.. china is conservative.. russia is conservative men are more conservative.. the military more conservative .. law enforcement more conservative.. the strong healthy young wise males more conservative

with liberals its simply bluff with smoke and mirrors with NO real power to stop anything
 

rocket88

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D

Really very bad equivalence. I expected more intelligence from you. Guess I was wrong.
 

Goshin

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I believe that states do indeed have the right to secede. But, if anyone believes it will be allowed without a fight, they're seriously naive.

I think it's akin to what some people call "natural rights". In reality you only have whatever rights someone bigger and stronger than you allows you to have.



Unless someone bigger and stronger than him tells him to leave you alone, thus we have a government founded on the recognition of those rights that OUGHT to accrue to humans by their nature, because of their value to most humans. Yes? :)


Public opinion and international opinion might both stand against using the US military against Texas.... indeed, lotta Texans in uniform just the now...
 

longview

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B I N G O !!


:rock :2party:




You nailed it!!



Success defines legitimacy, in reality. As Attaturk said, Sovereignty is taken, not given.



So if Texas successfully secedes... then it is legit? :)
The victors write the history!
 

Chomsky

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We, the United States, had NO legal right to secede from Britain, and arguably shaky moral ground to shed so much blood over our grievances against the government of King George. We did it anyway, and here we are.






So either rebellion and secession IS a legitimate act, and secession by a State is therefore legitimate...


...Or rebellion and secession IS NOT a legitimate act, and our current US Federal government is illegitimate due to being formed as part of an illegal/immoral rebellion against our lawful government, the British Empire. (Which may itself call into question whether rebelling against an illegitimate government is right or wrong, lol.)




Discussion invited. :D
You're presenting a false dichotomy. He who has the power, sets the rules. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course that's my practical reply, but I suppose there's much philosophical discussion that can arise. ;)



It is only legal if Successful, at which point the new country is recognized.
The secession of the Confederacy was illegal, because they lost the negotiation.
Exactly.

I suppose Forest Gump might state it as: "Legal is, as legal does"
 

Goshin

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Really very bad equivalence. I expected more intelligence from you. Guess I was wrong.



I feel truly terrible that I have disappointed you, Rocket.


Truly, your (unexplained, unsupported and unsubstantive) critique shall haunt me all the days of my life.



Yet, despite this crushing blow, I shall endeavor to persevere. :D
 

Goshin

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You're presenting a false dichotomy. He who has the power, sets the rules. Nothing more, nothing less.

Of course that's my practical reply, but I suppose there's much philosophical discussion that can arise. ;)



Exactly.

I suppose Forest Gump might state it as: "Legal is, as legal does"



As already noted, I agree with the pragmatic assessment of how it really works in the really real world.


However, as a matter of principle and morality, either secession is legitimate or it isn't, and sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander... and arguments that the US had a right to secede from Britain but Texas has no right to secede from the US are merely examples of self-serving propaganda.
 

SailaWay

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yep might makes RIGHT...and that comes from the ones with the highest logical thinking ability because they invent to control the world look at who supports liberalism and who supports conservatism..check their IQ's check who are hillarys supporters to see if she is elected how there will be a revolt to stop that harm of electing harm... soon there will be.. THE CONSERVATIVE STATES OF AMERICA
 

rocket88

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I feel truly terrible that I have disappointed you, Rocket.


Truly, your (unexplained, unsupported and unsubstantive) critique shall haunt me all the days of my life.



Yet, despite this crushing blow, I shall endeavor to persevere. :D

If you don't understand why that's one of the worst equivalence I've ever seen on this board (and there have been some really bad ones), then you are beyond help.

It's sad how far the Republican party has sunk in this country. You're walking back the ideas your party was founded in. Now Lincoln was a RINO. Unbelievable.
 

rocket88

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yep might makes RIGHT...and that comes from the ones with the highest logical thinking ability because they invent to control the world look at who supports liberalism and who supports conservatism..check their IQ's check who are hillarys supporters to see if she is elected how there will be a revolt to stop that harm of electing harm... soon there will be.. THE CONSERVATIVE STATES OF AMERICA

So your proposing mass deportations. Sadly, that's what I've come to expect.
 

Goshin

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If you don't understand why that's one of the worst equivalence I've ever seen on this board (and there have been some really bad ones), then you are beyond help.

It's sad how far the Republican party has sunk in this country. You're walking back the ideas your party was founded in. Now Lincoln was a RINO. Unbelievable.




As I said, unsubstantiated critique.



Since you've no interest in the discussion, you should be off about your business then. :)
 

SailaWay

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Liberalism is hammering the wise young healthy male to make up for liberalism errors..it does not take an einstein to see what is about to happen...the young and healthy and wise WILL REVOLT and they are too strong to be stopped by the unwise and weak
 

SailaWay

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NO mass deportations is not the answer but high wisdom tests for voting nd making decisions is THE ANSWER... all types of people are needed in a nation.. different abilities are needed... a bridge cannot be built without all abilities.. but the unwise must not be allowed to vote that is NOT their ability
 
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