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Refusing heart transplant for anti-vaxxer

JasperL

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Arlette:

No, the world is short of effective antibiotics and with the emergence of more and more strains of antibiotic resistant bacterial strains we are reaching a tipping point. Likewise there is a shortage of donor organs but that has always been the case in the age of transplanting. Antibiotics and vital organs for transplants are needs for human survival. Yachts are wants and are not necessary for survival. So a false parallel on your part.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
You've missed the point. In the U.S. giving antibiotics to patient A doesn't require, as a normal course of events, to deny that dose to patient B. Doctors can give the drug to A and B, and C and D, and EE and ZZZ.

With transplants, that does happen. When they say to Bob - you get this heart, the team are saying to Sue and 300 others, none of you get this heart. Around 150 of those others will never get any heart, and many more never get on the list for a heart because the odds they won't survive the surgery makes them worse candidates than the 300 who do get on the list.

And so in this world, the transplant team must, by the realities of organ shortages, prioritize patients with the best chance at survival, knowing they will by doing so effectively deny treatment to many, many others who will have no chance at survival.
 

Overitall

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Assertion of fact requires evidence. What is your expertise? Do you have experience on transplant teams? Are you a PhD with some expertise in this area? Can you cite the literature that concludes the drugs make the risks "moot"?

Yes, there are, and so people on the transplant list are required to receive other vaccines prior to surgery, and have for a very long time without objection.
Are they required or merely recommended? There is a difference.


Therefore, specific vaccines have been recommended, including pneumococcal, influenza, and hepatitis A and B.
 

mrjurrs

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Taking anti-vaxx "principles" to another level. What sort of a monster chooses anti-vaxx over being there for their kids?
People die waiting for transplants every day. Isn't future survival one of the metrics used to determine who gets the organ?

I support the hospital's position.
 

Overitall

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The current data all indicate vaccines significantly lower the odds of death and serious cases.

And many people on the list will be denied a shot at living. It's certain they will die without a transplant. So, organs are allocated to those with the best chance of living.
Everyone on that list has a potential risk of contracting covid. There's no evidence that any of them would be at lesser risk of dying from covid if infected. Do you have any evidence where it's been studied and the data supports your conclusion?
 

JasperL

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Except it's not a valid medical reason. It's nothing but the most egregious form of bullying by trying to use someone's life to get them to do what they want.
It's so nice to have experts on DP. Amazing we had no idea so many people on here are in fact experts in transplant surgery, or can do their own research and become experts in a matter of minutes. Who needs actual teams of doctors, and the combined wisdom of performing hundreds or thousands of transplants and then using professional judgment gained from years of experience? All anyone needs is a 3 minute session on the Google machine!!
 

Credence

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Too bad; so sad. I agree with the medical decision denying the transplant. If he contacted covid he would die. It would be like giving an alcoholic who refuses to not indulge, a liver

Give it to someone who will actually benefit from it. JMHO
 

Overitall

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You've asserted two facts there.
1) that with or without the vaccine he "most likely" won't survive. Let's start there - what does "most likely" mean here? More than half, so 51% will die? Cite your sources.
Consider the fact that it's been well established that the immunity compromised people are at the highest risk from covid infections. Like people getting cancer treatments.
2): Vaccines do not improve the survival odds. Cite your basis for that claim.
We talking about compromised people, not the general population.
How is it in the age of Trump that people should no longer be accountable for their actions?

It's fine to give people the 'freedom' to choose. He was given that freedom, he made a choice, knowing the consequences. How is that now a problem?
Another Trump rant. It gets so boring to read such crap.
 

Arlette

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Once you get it naturally, you have immunity for a certain period, of time. Vaccinated, not so much.
And you are claiming that the heart transplant guy has immunity. How do you know that. The OP article didn't mention it
 

Lloyd Christmas

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I submit to you there's almost 100% chance of the patient dying if he doesn't get the transplant. Based on what some have suggested here there's also a 100% chance he will get covid which with his immune compromised status with or without the vaccine he'll most likely won't survive. Denying there are measures he can take to protect himself (like was recommended prior to and in conjunction with vaccines) there's no reason why he should be denied a transplant. This is similar to the "Death Panels" that was feared as a result of Obamcare. Driven more by politics and the profits of insurance companies.

You have no idea what you are talking about. For starters, this is not like death panels, what complete garbage. Tehre is a shortage of organs. And guess what, if this guy gets the organ, many more people don't, and will die.

If an alcoholic has a drink and is caught, he is off the list. There are other criteria. These aren't based on profits or politics, but criteria set out based on patient risk for a limited organ. Sorry, claiming its unfair to this anti vax asshole but ignoring that 100 or more will die because he got the organ, and is putting himself at high risk the organ will go to waste.
 

JasperL

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Everyone on that list has a potential risk of contracting covid. There's no evidence that any of them would be at lesser risk of dying from covid if infected. Do you have any evidence where it's been studied and the data supports your conclusion?
I guess I'm just an idiot who trusts the transplant team. You seem to believe you know more than they do, did your own research in 10 minutes or less, which is plenty for making this decision. I'll defer to your expertise, that you got from the Google. I mean, that's rational, right? You know nothing of the subject, but feel totally qualified to overrule the judgment of people who do this for a living and in fact have a duty to patients to maximize their odds of survival.

Also, it's really not fair at all for people to be given freedom to make choices, then there being predictable negative consequences! We all have a right to do what we want!!!
 

Overitall

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I guess I'm just an idiot who trusts the transplant team. You seem to believe you know more than they do, did your own research in 10 minutes or less, which is plenty for making this decision. I'll defer to your expertise, that you got from the Google. I mean, that's rational, right? You know nothing of the subject, but feel totally qualified to overrule the judgment of people who do this for a living and in fact have a duty to patients to maximize their odds of survival.

Also, it's really not fair at all for people to be given freedom to make choices, then there being predictable negative consequences! We all have a right to do what we want!!!
Have a good day.
 

Overitall

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You have no idea what you are talking about. For starters, this is not like death panels, what complete garbage. Tehre is a shortage of organs. And guess what, if this guy gets the organ, many more people don't, and will die.

If an alcoholic has a drink and is caught, he is off the list. There are other criteria. These aren't based on profits or politics, but criteria set out based on patient risk for a limited organ. Sorry, claiming its unfair to this anti vax asshole but ignoring that 100 or more will die because he got the organ, and is putting himself at high risk the organ will go to waste.
You're still trying to compare known variables to unknown variables. There's no guarantee that a transplant patient will contract covid, where a drinking liver transplant patient will jeopardize the organ. Please stop with this nonsense of comparing apples to oranges.
 

Paradoxical

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And you are claiming that the heart transplant guy has immunity. How do you know that. The OP article didn't mention it
That's what I understand.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

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CBS:

Why must an unvaccinated potential organ recipient be taken off from a recipient list? What medical reason is there for such a decision? The decision is a political/administrative one, not a medical one as far as I can see. Don't get me wrong. Folks should get vaccinated with the exceptions of those whose lives or whose unborn childrens' lives are threatened by a vaccine. However in this case there is no valid medical reason to deny such a transplant. The reason is political/administrative and not based on scientific and medical understanding. A fully vaccinated person on immune suppressors is as vulnerable to diseases as an unvaccinated person on immune suppressors. The immunity suppression negates the vaccinations.

So what is the medical rationale behind such a decision? I ask all readers here who might know to offer up some.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

That's not quite correct, sorry.

Considerations for COVID-19 vaccination in moderately or severely immunocompromised people 1643219437742.png


Moderately or severely immunocompromised people may not mount a protective immune response after initial vaccination and, furthermore, their protection by primary vaccination may wane over time making them susceptible to severe SARS-CoV-2 infection. ACIP and CDC have made age-specific recommendations for an additional primary dose and a booster dose for this population.

---It's not quite like a light switch.

Additional Primary Shot and Booster Shot for Some Immunocompromised People 1643219437742.png

After completing the primary series, some moderately or severely immunocompromised people should get an additional primary shot.
Everyone 12 years and older, including immunocompromised people, should get a booster shot. If you are eligible for an additional primary shot, you should get this dose first before you get a booster shot.

1643219539049.png

The hospital did not make a political decision quite so much as an "ability to benefit" decision.
Just as it is pointless to send a person with a 58 IQ due to brain damage from a crack overdose to pursue a degree in physics,
it seems pointless to donate a heart to someone who is unwilling to take even basic steps to secure what little protection they can get.

1643219709292.png

COVID-19 vaccine elicits antibodies in 90% taking immunosuppressants


"What we found here is that the vast majority of immunocompromised patients with autoimmune diseases are able to mount antibody responses following COVID-19 vaccination. There’s clearly a benefit for this population.”

@Evilroddy, we had those very questions for OUR son's cardiologist early on: "Will he be at risk for COVID reinfection just as an unvaxxed person after he gets a transplant?"
And his cardiologist said that his response would not be as robust but that the mRNA vaccine technology is something of a blessing in that regard because it leverages something
immunologists never had in their toolbox in the old days.
 

Irredentist

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You're still trying to compare known variables to unknown variables. There's no guarantee that a transplant patient will contract covid, where a drinking liver transplant patient will jeopardize the organ. Please stop with this nonsense of comparing apples to oranges.
Given that we are currently still in the midst of a massive national spike in coronavirus cases, it is quite reasonable for the transplant team to assume that this man will at some point be exposed to Covid. Given that likely eventuality, he will have a much better chance of survival if he has received the Covid-19 vaccine. And because he has refused to do so, he is not as good a candidate for an organ transplant as someone else who has received that vaccine. It's the job of the transplant team to decide who has the best chance of surviving such a procedure, and having a Covid vaccine significantly improves those odds.
 

Overitall

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That's not quite correct, sorry.

Considerations for COVID-19 vaccination in moderately or severely immunocompromised people View attachment 67371182


Moderately or severely immunocompromised people may not mount a protective immune response after initial vaccination and, furthermore, their protection by primary vaccination may wane over time making them susceptible to severe SARS-CoV-2 infection. ACIP and CDC have made age-specific recommendations for an additional primary dose and a booster dose for this population.

---It's not quite like a light switch.

Additional Primary Shot and Booster Shot for Some Immunocompromised People View attachment 67371182

After completing the primary series, some moderately or severely immunocompromised people should get an additional primary shot.
Everyone 12 years and older, including immunocompromised people, should get a booster shot. If you are eligible for an additional primary shot, you should get this dose first before you get a booster shot.

View attachment 67371185

The hospital did not make a political decision quite so much as an "ability to benefit" decision.
Just as it is pointless to send a person with a 58 IQ due to brain damage from a crack overdose to pursue a degree in physics,
it seems pointless to donate a heart to someone who is unwilling to take even basic steps to secure what little protection they can get.

View attachment 67371186

COVID-19 vaccine elicits antibodies in 90% taking immunosuppressants


"What we found here is that the vast majority of immunocompromised patients with autoimmune diseases are able to mount antibody responses following COVID-19 vaccination. There’s clearly a benefit for this population.”
From your own source:

Since a minimum level of antibodies needed for protection hasn’t been established, it has been difficult to say whether the levels achieved by people on immune suppressing drugs are high enough to protect them from severe COVID-19, the researchers said.
 

Decypher

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You people just have to keep digging with trying to make these dumb argument, huh? it's against his religion to take a vaccines (far more effective and far less side effects than transplantation) but he's OK with getting someone's organs and go on a cocktail of medications to deal with anti rejection? YOu really tried that as an argument, and you whine about the article being misleading?

religious purposes is just as dumb as being a misinformed idiot
I’d be interested to know exactly which religion prohibits this vaccine. Even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists don’t prohibit the Covid vaccine.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

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From your own source:

So you're expecting 100% on everything, oh well.
Like I said, I hope you never have to go through this the way our family is.
With your kind of mindset, it's going to be very painful learning about reality.

And again, the hospital made a decision based on "ability to benefit", not a political one.
Conspiracy addled people have a tough life, I guess...what with seeing a conspiracy around every corner.
 

Checkerboard Strangler

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I’d be interested to know exactly which religion prohibits this vaccine. Even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists don’t prohibit the Covid vaccine.

I have yet to see a scripture that mentions inoculation of any kind.
 

Decypher

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Something tells me you don't understand how organ transplants work.
Or hospitals or insurance companies or the courts system or etc etc.
 

911Sparky

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Once you get it naturally, you have immunity for a certain period, of time. Vaccinated, not so much.
I read an article a while ago asserting that natural immunity lasts about 3 months, vaccine immunity 6-8 months.
 
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