Refusing heart transplant for anti-vaxxer

[Chainsawmassacre]

You people just have to keep digging with trying to make these dumb argument, huh? it's against his religion to take a vaccines (far more effective and far less side effects than transplantation) but he's OK with getting someone's organs and go on a cocktail of medications to deal with anti rejection? YOu really tried that as an argument, and you whine about the article being misleading?

religious purposes is just as dumb as being a misinformed idiot

I'd disagree. I don't understand these people that say their religious beliefs stop them from vaccinating but I respect their right to hold these beliefs.
It's a good example of the difference in conservative and so called liberal mindsets. I as a conservative believe in free choice and respect personal freedom to choose your own path in life whereas you as a liberal condemn anyone that doesn't believe as you do and breaks liberal lockstep.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

And your respect is misplaced. We're a nation of science, not god. God doesn't govern the nation, he's absentee at best.
These trasnplant centers have to make tough choices about who lives and who dies, and they aren't going to bend those rules for nonsensical, poor health choices by transplant recipients.

Nor would I expect them to.

 

[Mach]

The unvaccinated patient is no different than an elderly woman who needs a hip replacement but is refused because she smokes.

False. Heart tranplants require a scarce, living organ to transplant. A hip replacement is just off the shelf.
That's why they have to come up with standards that determine eligibility based on reason. This guy for stupid reasons, has denied their efforts to care for him, and he has through his own absurdity, removed himself from the eligibility for that scarce organ.

Nothing like a hip replacement.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

The news I'm hearing is that actually so many more people are getting it, that overall death numbers/hospitalizations are hitting higher marks. It can be less deadly but more transmissible and this kill more people....

You're hearing fake news then.

 

[911Sparky]

That's been pointed out to which I asked about second hand smoke.

How Long Does Nicotine Stay in Your System? Lab Test Results

When you're exposed to nicotine, it’s absorbed into your blood and metabolized by your liver. Find out how long it stays in your system.

www.healthline.com

While I haven't done a deep dive into this subject, my common sense tells me that a pack a day smoker will show higher levels of cotine than someone who
is merely exposed to the smoke.

 

[fireflygmf]

The news I'm hearing is that actually so many more people are getting it, that overall death numbers/hospitalizations are hitting higher marks. It can be less deadly but more transmissible and this kill more people....

Not denying that, but the rate of severe outcomes and deaths is plummeting. I think I was using that point to try and illustrate that a lower risk per individual is reality, but risk to the health systems are still high, as you indicate.

 

[Mach]

Obese? Smoker? Drug user? Prostitute? High wire aerialist? stunt pilot? frat bro?

You've been corrected on this numerous times. For transplants, many peoples choices/conditions do in fact disqualify them already. Nothing new here. You were wrong about the HIV, you're wrong about this. Generally your posts are just wrong.

 

[911Sparky]

A person has a risk of getting hit by a car on their way through the parking lot on their way out.

I believe you are now arguing more from a sense of loyalty to your politics than any strong feelings. Hit by a car in the parking lot? Really?

 

[Lycanthrope]

Seems strange that someone who won't get a vaccine would take a new heart.

I ain't about to trust these scientist-priests who kneel at the altar of science! Who knows what their agenda is trying to jab me with drugs and medicines I know nothing about for the sake of politics! If these science worshippers know so much how come they constantly change their positions!

Now shoot me full of immunosuppressant drugs and stitch someone else's heart in me!

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

Why don't you see my previous response? I don't know it all and I stood corrected. Care to retract your statement?

Partially, because you still pushed that it is a harsh reaction and that is simply unrealistic. And why make a comment critical of the decisions made if you didn't know all the information and all you probably did was read the title? yes, I might be a bit harsh, but that is years of seeing dumb comments from people everywhere, and many of them think they know better than people actually educated on the matter

Yeah I read your earlier post after writing my own, and I buy your premise. I think it is related now too, but still feel that it is an overly-harsh reaction. The age of omicron has seen a large reduction in mortality.

But its not. Alcoholics who aren't sober for 6 months can, there is an entire list of exclusion criteria. For every 1 person who gets an organ, 1000s die for the lack of them. every day 17 people die waiting on transplants list.

The harshness are the many religious nuts out there that refuse to even transplant their organs because they think they need it in the afterlife. Or fight the automatic organ donations unless you opt out.

That's the real harshness, not some anti-vax asshole, who decides to pick and choose which medicine to believe and some people want to make him out to be a victim.

 

[Mach]

So what is the medical rationale behind such a decision? I ask all readers here who might know to offer up some.

Immune system/vaccination aside - A patient who fails to comply with strict medical recommendations loses out to someone who complies with medical recommendations.
Transplant recipients have to follow a very long list of strict behaviors, and take medicines in order to have the best chance for transplant success. Picking someone who can't comply right out of the gate, may be a red flag solely based on their propensity to follow medical advice.

I mean, take a safe vaccine or lose your eligibility for a heart transplant...that's not a hard decision, nor is it an onerous requirement from the hospital even if it's not backed by evidence (I've seen nothing but armchair "experts' suggest otherwise though).

 

[911Sparky]

So you're saying everyone is going to get infected from covid no matter what precautions they take? Really?

They aren't taking the best precaution. Vaccine.

 

[Mach]

Do they say anything about if he had Covid and fought it off naturally ?
Even dummies know that a "VACCINE" is something less harmful than alive virus, that helps your body learn to fight the Actual Virus!
So if one gets THE ACTUAL VIRUS there is not need for a Vaccine !
But you business folks will kill to get more money ....

Doesn't matter. The vaccine is recommended even for people who have had Covid, and the requirement is trivial to accept. A quick vaccine that hundreds of millions have safely taken.
This has nothing to do with money, that's just absurd.

 

[Mach]

Yet tens of millions are denied healthcare based off of their economic status....

Zing.

 

[Mach]

Congress needs to step in.

Absurd gas lighting as always.

 

[Paradoxical]

These people have no concept of anything other than black and white, this or that. Simple minded. have no concept of statistics. they prove it over nad over with their completely moronic responses

You mean the stats that this primarily kills people over 65 with 4 comorbidities? That fact?

 

[Arlette]

Except it's not a valid medical reason. It's nothing but the most egregious form of bullying by trying to use someone's life to get them to do what they want.

He wasn't bullied. He's still unvaccinated

 

[911Sparky]

I

Any reason is valid. It’s his life his choice. I can’t think of any reason other than religion that I personally would see any merit in though.

You are correct, his life, his choice, and he made his choice to not get the vaccine. The doctors made the choice to refuse him a new heart until he is vaccinated.
I know what my choice would be.

 

[Mach]

That's been pointed out to which I asked about second hand smoke.

Why would it matter. Putting yourself in a position where you inhale enough smoke to test like a smoker, effectively puts you at similar risk. we aren't going to depend on your armchair nonsense in order to make these serious choices, we'll depend on the experts who have a vested interest in their field of practice.

 

[911Sparky]

Ummmm, your payment to them. You are going to the hospital with a prepaid bill. They need to be sued to oblivion.

Something tells me you don't understand how organ transplants work.

 

[fireflygmf]

Partially, because you still pushed that it is a harsh reaction and that is simply unrealistic. And why make a comment critical of the decisions made if you didn't know all the information and all you probably did was read the title? yes, I might be a bit harsh, but that is years of seeing dumb comments from people everywhere, and many of them think they know better than people actually educated on the matter

So, the first part, thanks for the partial retract. I made the comment because the decision to deny him seemed harsh to me, and I knee-jerked my response. In reading the reasonings of other posters though I buy those arguments, changed my mind, and stand corrected.

But its not. Alcoholics who aren't sober for 6 months can, there is an entire list of exclusion criteria. For every 1 person who gets an organ, 1000s die for the lack of them. every day 17 people die waiting on transplants list.

The harshness are the many religious nuts out there that refuse to even transplant their organs because they think they need it in the afterlife. Or fight the automatic organ donations unless you opt out.

The second part I also agree with.

That's the real harshness, not some anti-vax asshole, who decides to pick and choose which medicine to believe and some people want to make him out to be a victim.

I think this is where I get feeling weird about things. I've been getting very anxious about the habits of pinning everything on the anti-vax crowd. It was true at one time that COVID was going to be stopped by vaccines, but the virus is now to transmissible that unless 100% of the population is like 95% protected against infection, there is no stopping. A vaccine with those characteristics do not exist, it's 70% effective after 3 doses for 3 months. Not nearly enough.

All this to say, I was probably conflating these things and had a bad take on this scenario. Still feel bad for the guy though.

 

[Mach]

Something tells me you don't understand how organ transplants work.

I've seen no post evidence to indicate his posts communicate how "anything" works.

 

[southwest88]

Next they'll be denied medical coverage and treatment for anything including broken bones or open wounds.

First responders will need to find a way to determine if an unconscious person has been vaccinated before they treat the patient.

It almost sounds like the AIDS/HIV scare of the 70's and 80's. I wonder if the unvaccinated will become a protected class of minorities like AIDS patients? I mean, didn't they engage in risky and unprotected activities as well?

No, my understanding of first responders' mission is that they're to locate & stabilize the patient, & transport him/her as quickly & safely as possible to the nearest hospital that can successfully treat the patient. There are rapid tests for vaccination (why would you take the patient's word for it? Or if the patient is unconscious, incoherent, etc.?) - that's not the issue.

 

[911Sparky]

This tells me that you don't know much about organ transplants.

The drugs that target the organ tissue do just that...and ONLY that. They do not have any effect on the rest of the immune system or vaccines taken. A precaution for transplant recipients when taking vaccines is to NOT take a live vaccine which could cause rejection in the organ, or infect the organ. Inactive vaccines (like most COVID vaccines) are fine to take...and are encouraged.

The immune suppressant drugs do NOT affect vaccines in any way. So, the advantages of being vaccinated are NOT nullified.

Before you argue the point with me....just understand that for the past two+ years I have dealt with my mother-in-law having both kidneys and her liver transplanted. I heard the doctors, we have the documentation.

It is medical science, NOT politics.

Thank you, very informative post. Hope all is well with your mother in law.

 

[911Sparky]

CBS:

Why must an unvaccinated potential organ recipient be taken off from a recipient list? What medical reason is there for such a decision? The decision is a political/administrative one, not a medical one as far as I can see. Don't get me wrong. Folks should get vaccinated with the exceptions of those whose lives or whose unborn childrens' lives are threatened by a vaccine. However in this case there is no valid medical reason to deny such a transplant. The reason is political/administrative and not based on scientific and medical understanding. A fully vaccinated person on immune suppressors is as vulnerable to diseases as an unvaccinated person on immune suppressors. The immunity suppression negates the vaccinations.

So what is the medical rationale behind such a decision? I ask all readers here who might know to offer up some.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy, read post #103 for a good answer to your question.