Reducing the number of abortion: serious discussion or verbal morality wars? (1 Viewer)

[weaver2]

We can play " my morality is more moral than yours" in an ever widening circle of accusations until everyone gets tired and angry or we can discuss abortion reduction, minus the moral one-up-manship, with the basic understanding that abortion will never disappear. Legal or illegal makes no difference; abortions will always be available.

So, leaving the moral pronouncements out; how will you reduce the number of abortions in the US from the present 800,000 to 400,000. Why will your plan work?

 

[WillyPete]

We can play " my morality is more moral than yours" in an ever widening circle of accusations until everyone gets tired and angry or we can discuss abortion reduction, minus the moral one-up-manship, with the basic understanding that abortion will never disappear. Legal or illegal makes no difference; abortions will always be available.

So, leaving the moral pronouncements out; how will you reduce the number of abortions in the US from the present 800,000 to 400,000. Why will your plan work?

Human behavior responds to incentive. These can be positive (reward) or negative (punishment.)

Historically, we have approached abortion with negative incentives, and the biggest one was the very broad social stigma against doing it. That stigma no longer exists, and the fractious nature of our culture means it will likely never return.

My solution to reducing abortion (and general manipulation of people) involves positive incentives for the behavior we want. Make it to 25 (or whatever age) without a pregnancy? Here's a nice fat government check/tax rebate. Marriage with no prior children? Incentive! Kids finished primary school? Incentive! No criminal record?! No moving violations?! Same job for 5 years? Etc, etc, etc.

We milk the actuarial tables to reward people for doing the behaviors that lead to fewer abortions (or whatever other goal,) and people will follow as best they can. People will punish themselves by (and for) not getting these rewards.

 

[Noodlegawd]

We can play " my morality is more moral than yours" in an ever widening circle of accusations until everyone gets tired and angry or we can discuss abortion reduction, minus the moral one-up-manship, with the basic understanding that abortion will never disappear. Legal or illegal makes no difference; abortions will always be available.

So, leaving the moral pronouncements out; how will you reduce the number of abortions in the US from the present 800,000 to 400,000. Why will your plan work?

Are we assuming that reducing the number is desirable, for the sake of argument?

 

[Lursa]

--mandatory sex education that discusses all birth control methods and the impacts of newborns and children on finances and opportunities in life (there are role-playing exercises for this).

--free or heavilly subsidized birth control and reproductive counseling and services. (this saves the US taxpayer $7 for every $1 spent. I can provide the links). For every accidental pregnancy prevented, an abortion is not needed. (duh)

--improving the socio-economic conditions for all people in the US so that fewer abortions are needed.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[weaver2]

Human behavior responds to incentive. These can be positive (reward) or negative (punishment.)

Historically, we have approached abortion with negative incentives, and the biggest one was the very broad social stigma against doing it. That stigma no longer exists, and the fractious nature of our culture means it will likely never return.

My solution to reducing abortion (and general manipulation of people) involves positive incentives for the behavior we want. Make it to 25 (or whatever age) without a pregnancy? Here's a nice fat government check/tax rebate. Marriage with no prior children? Incentive! Kids finished primary school? Incentive! No criminal record?! No moving violations?! Same job for 5 years? Etc, etc, etc.

We milk the actuarial tables to reward people for doing the behaviors that lead to fewer abortions (or whatever other goal,) and people will follow as best they can. People will punish themselves by (and for) not getting these rewards.

Intertesting: we already do this to encourage having more children. Getting or not getting an abortion might be hard to verify but giving and incentive for staying married makes sense because married couple have fewer abortions. Also a government payment to all women to purchase contraceptives that they control would also cut down on abortions since it is the failure of condoms, withdrawal and rhythm methods that cause the most unintended pregnancies. The money would have to come from the government or conservative Christian businesses and organizations would complain that paying for insurance that covered contraceptives was infringing on their freedom of religion.

The very wealthy receive incentives in the form of tax cuts which are supposed to be reinvested in the business to create more jobs, increase wages, add benefits etc. Perhaps we should wait and pay after the jobs, and benefits have been produced.

 

[lwf]

+1 for mandatory sex education.

 

[weaver2]

Are we assuming that reducing the number is desirable, for the sake of argument?

I think it is if for no other reason than to turn down the noise and end one of the divisive topics in American political culture. There is a cost to the woman's body with pregnancy and abortions so it makes it healthier not to get pregnant in the first place and easier to avoid absent work days.

 

[WillyPete]

Intertesting: we already do this to encourage having more children. Getting or not getting an abortion might be hard to verify but giving and incentive for staying married makes sense because married couple have fewer abortions. Also a government payment to all women to purchase contraceptives that they control would also cut down on abortions since it is the failure of condoms, withdrawal and rhythm methods that cause the most unintended pregnancies. The money would have to come from the government or conservative Christian businesses and organizations would complain that paying for insurance that covered contraceptives was infringing on their freedom of religion.

The very wealthy receive incentives in the form of tax cuts which are supposed to be reinvested in the business to create more jobs, increase wages, add benefits etc. Perhaps we should wait and pay after the jobs, and benefits have been produced.

The book Freakonomics explains it all very well, with plenty of non-intuitive examples of why people do and don't do things.

They also demonstrated via statistical analysis that widespread abortion correlates to a lower rate of crime, so consider reducing abortions will have many effects and they won't all be positive.

 

[weaver2]

The book Freakonomics explains it all very well, with plenty of non-intuitive examples of why people do and don't do things.

They also demonstrated via statistical analysis that widespread abortion correlates to a lower rate of crime, so consider reducing abortions will have many effects and they won't all be positive.

I've been putting off reading Freakonomics. This gives me an incentive. The reduction in the crime rate correlates to the reduction in birth rate among the poor and working poor as a result of increased availability of contraceptives that women control and availability of abortion. If women's contraceptives were 100% paid for through a government program (not the ACA) then the reduction in unwanted pregnancies will require abortion to sustain the lowered crime rate. It might even lower it further since women's contraceptives have a much lower rate of failure than condoms which is the BC of choice among couples that do not have access to cheap women's birth control. T
relatively inexpensive incentives and our large and monstrously expensive prison system.

 

[OceanBlues1]

--mandatory sex education that discusses all birth control methods and the impacts of newborns and children on finances and opportunities in life (there are role-playing exercises for this).

--free or heavilly subsidized birth control and reproductive counseling and services. (this saves the US taxpayer $7 for every $1 spent. I can provide the links). For every accidental pregnancy prevented, an abortion is not needed. (duh)

--improving the socio-economic conditions for all people in the US so that fewer abortions are needed.

Agreed on all plans of action. Those make the most sense to me.

 

[Mashmont]

--mandatory sex education that discusses all birth control methods and the impacts of newborns and children on finances and opportunities in life (there are role-playing exercises for this).

--free or heavilly subsidized birth control and reproductive counseling and services. (this saves the US taxpayer $7 for every $1 spent. I can provide the links). For every accidental pregnancy prevented, an abortion is not needed. (duh)

--improving the socio-economic conditions for all people in the US so that fewer abortions are needed.

1. If sex education is to be taught, it should be based on Catholic sexual moral teaching from an early grade. NO sex outside marriage. Women are to be cherished and committed to and not used as vessels for pleasure.

2. NO immoral birth control instruction or distribution. Giving such trash to young minors and thereby encouraging them to have sex is especially despicable. (Remember these same people lamenting over a 10-year old)?

3. President Trump is doing just that, improving socio-economic conditions, especially for minorities. 0bummer and Biden didn't do it at all. Blacks fared WORSE under them.

 

[Mashmont]

We can play " my morality is more moral than yours" in an ever widening circle of accusations until everyone gets tired and angry or we can discuss abortion reduction, minus the moral one-up-manship, with the basic understanding that abortion will never disappear. Legal or illegal makes no difference; abortions will always be available.

So, leaving the moral pronouncements out; how will you reduce the number of abortions in the US from the present 800,000 to 400,000. Why will your plan work?

Start teaching the value of human life and moral sexual practices from an early grade. Punish media outlets and Hollywood who depict or glamorize sex outside marriage. Make it a pariah just like they have done to dogfighting and the N word. Recapture the societal stigma towards fornication and abortion. Thjen after you've changed enough hearts and minds, and changed the culture, make abortion illegal in all 50 states. Arrest doctors who perform abortions and women who have them. Get to the Constitutional Amendment banning them.

Do these things, and the number of abortions will slow to a crawl. If you dismiss these things, you aren't interested in reducing abortions, which I suspect you aren't, really.

 

[Lursa]

1. If sex education is to be taught, it should be based on Catholic sexual moral teaching from an early grade. NO sex outside marriage. Women are to be cherished and committed to and not used as vessels for pleasure.

2. NO immoral birth control instruction or distribution. Giving such trash to young minors and thereby encouraging them to have sex is especially despicable. (Remember these same people lamenting over a 10-year old)?

It's sad that the Catholic CHurch teaches that sex outside marriage with women is 'using them.' For shame! That's some made up crap, women arent any different within or outside of marriage. Women and men enjoy consensual sex, and have every right to appreciate it any time they choose.

It's moronic to hide or discourage the use of birth control, its use reduces abortion by reducing unplanned pregnancies. What kind of cult encourages such stupidity?

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[Lursa]

3. President Trump is doing just that, improving socio-economic conditions, especially for minorities. 0bummer and Biden didn't do it at all. Blacks fared WORSE under them.

Prove it. Let's see the data.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[weaver2]

Start teaching the value of human life and moral sexual practices from an early grade. Punish media outlets and Hollywood who depict or glamorize sex outside marriage. Make it a pariah just like they have done to dogfighting and the N word. Recapture the societal stigma towards fornication and abortion. Thjen after you've changed enough hearts and minds, and changed the culture, make abortion illegal in all 50 states. Arrest doctors who perform abortions and women who have them. Get to the Constitutional Amendment banning them.

Do these things, and the number of abortions will slow to a crawl. If you dismiss these things, you aren't interested in reducing abortions, which I suspect you aren't, really.

The following can't be done because they are unconstitutional or illegal .
Teach the value of moral sexual practices in public schools
Punish media and entertainment for showing sex outside of marriage
Require the government to post advertisements that fornication and abortion as immoral.

You can teach the value of human life but not from any sects viewpoint.

These are probably legal but only accomplished, if at all, with great difficulty and much resistance.
Make abortion illegal
Arrest and jail doctors who perform and women who get abortions

Dismissing the unconstitutional leaves just three avenues of action, two are extremely punishing activities which has the opposite effect to instilling morality. You have nothing in any of your suggestions that would make people want to act morally or find morality attractive. And because your suggestions involve incarceration you have made the cost extremely high. Your suggestions are dismissed because they can't be done and those that can are expensive.

 

[Mashmont]

It's sad that the Catholic CHurch teaches that sex outside marriage with women is 'using them.' For shame! That's some made up crap, women arent any different within or outside of marriage. Women and men enjoy consensual sex, and have every right to appreciate it any time they choose.

It's moronic to hide or discourage the use of birth control, its use reduces abortion by reducing unplanned pregnancies. What kind of cult encourages such stupidity?

Handing out condoms to uncommitted teens teaches boys to treat women as disposable sex socks. Is that what you want for women?

 

[Mashmont]

The following can't be done because they are unconstitutional or illegal .
Teach the value of moral sexual practices in public schools
Punish media and entertainment for showing sex outside of marriage
Require the government to post advertisements that fornication and abortion as immoral.

You can teach the value of human life but not from any sects viewpoint.

These are probably legal but only accomplished, if at all, with great difficulty and much resistance.
Make abortion illegal
Arrest and jail doctors who perform and women who get abortions

Dismissing the unconstitutional leaves just three avenues of action, two are extremely punishing activities which has the opposite effect to instilling morality. You have nothing in any of your suggestions that would make people want to act morally or find morality attractive. And because your suggestions involve incarceration you have made the cost extremely high. Your suggestions are dismissed because they can't be done and those that can are expensive.

How is it illegal to teach moral sexual practices in the public schools are punish the entertainment industry? As for making people want to behave morally, that's where the Catholic moral education in the public schools comes in as well as changing the media message. We've brainwashed people that saying the N word is the worst thing in the world, so we can certainly influence people to learn real truths such as human life is sacred and abortion is evil.

 

[weaver2]

Handing out condoms to uncommitted teens teach boys to treat women as disposable sex socks. Is that what you want for women?

What I want for women is certainly not what think women should be doing. I want strong healthy families where girls and boys goals and opportunities aren't limited by sex obsessed old men from some conservative religions run by pastors spewing out conspiracy crap and molesting little boys or the women in the choir. What right do your child molesting, contraceptive denying priests have to tell my daughter anything about life or morality.

As for passing out condoms, you are describing what happens when abstinence only schools realize there are a hell of a lot of pregnant teens in school and start frantically passing out condoms and call it education about birth control. This doesn't happen at schools with an expanded sex-ed curriculum from K-12 that focuses on respect, responsibility, family and relationships. Responsible sex-ed isn't just mechanics: it is mostly about healthy relationships unlike the distinctly unhealthy chastity rings and re-virginification ceremonies that go on in conservative states with abstinence programs.

What ever the Church is telling women about morality isn't working since Catholic women get abortions at the same rate as pro-choice women.

 

[Mashmont]

Prove it. Let's see the data.

More trolling. Again, I don't play the 'go fetch' game.

 

[Mashmont]

What I want for women is certainly not what think women should be doing. I want strong healthy families where girls and boys goals and opportunities aren't limited by sex obsessed old men from some conservative religions run by pastors spewing out conspiracy crap and molesting little boys or the women in the choir. What right do your child molesting, contraceptive denying priests have to tell my daughter anything about life or morality.

As for passing out condoms, you are describing what happens when abstinence only schools realize there are a hell of a lot of pregnant teens in school and start frantically passing out condoms and call it education about birth control. This doesn't happen at schools with an expanded sex-ed curriculum from K-12 that focuses on respect, responsibility, family and relationships. Responsible sex-ed isn't just mechanics: it is mostly about healthy relationships unlike the distinctly unhealthy chastity rings and re-virginification ceremonies that go on in conservative states with abstinence programs.

What ever the Church is telling women about morality isn't working since Catholic women get abortions at the same rate as pro-choice women.

If you want strong healthy families, giving unmarried pre-teens condoms sure ain't the way to get them.

And you're lying about Catholic women. Practicing Catholic women, aka those who believe in RCC teaching and attend Mass weekly obviously don't have abortion near the number of the general population. This is just common sense.

You're claiming they pass out condoms in abstinence-only schools? That's just patently absurd. I'm not sure you're intelligent enough for me to converse with, making such a ridiculous unfounded claim.

 

[weaver2]

If you want strong healthy families, giving unmarried pre-teens condoms sure ain't the way to get them.

And you're lying about Catholic women. Practicing Catholic women, aka those who believe in RCC teaching and attend Mass weekly obviously don't have abortion near the number of the general population. This is just common sense.

You're claiming they pass out condoms in abstinence-only schools? That's just patently absurd. I'm not sure you're intelligent enough for me to converse with, making such a ridiculous unfounded claim.

LOL. Oh now you are just using Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals. Using rules numbered 4,5,6, 8, 11, and 13 is good technique

4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
6. “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.” They’ll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They’re doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones.
8. “Keep the pressure on. Never let up.” Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new.
11. “If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive.” Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog.
13. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

Your problem is that you've forgotten that the above rules aren't any good unless you also follow rules 2, 3, 7, and 12
2. “Never go outside the expertise of your people.” It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone.
3. “Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy.” Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty.
7. “A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.” Don’t become old news.
12. “The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative.” Never let the enemy score points because you’re caught without a solution to the problem.

Try harder. LOL

 

[weaver2]

...............And you're lying about Catholic women. Practicing Catholic women, aka those who believe in RCC teaching and attend Mass weekly obviously don't have abortion near the number of the general population. This is just common sense...............

Yes Catholic women, those that believe in Catholic teachings and attend Mass weekly do have abortions, actually they get abortions more frequently than main-line Protestant women, evangelical women and "other" women. Only women that have no religious affiliation beat Catholic women on rates of abortions.

Read it and try to refute it. " abortion patients reported a religious affiliation—24% were Catholic, 17% were main- line Protestant, 13% were evangelical Protestant and 8% identified with some other religion. Thirty-eight percent of patients had no religious affiliation.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/de...characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014.pdf

 

[Mashmont]

Yes Catholic women, those that believe in Catholic teachings and attend Mass weekly do have abortions, actually they get abortions more frequently than main-line Protestant women, evangelical women and "other" women. Only women that have no religious affiliation beat Catholic women on rates of abortions.

Read it and try to refute it. " abortion patients reported a religious affiliation—24% were Catholic, 17% were main- line Protestant, 13% were evangelical Protestant and 8% identified with some other religion. Thirty-eight percent of patients had no religious affiliation.

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/de...characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014.pdf

Nothing was said about whether these women are 'practicing Catholics'. These subjects just checked a box. Maybe they once went to church when they were with their families. Likely, they've fallen away, and turned to nasty things like abortion.

 

[weaver2]

Nothing was said about whether these women are 'practicing Catholics'. These subjects just checked a box. Maybe they once went to church when they were with their families. Likely, they've fallen away, and turned to nasty things like abortion.

There were 800,000 abortion in 2017(last reported date for tabulation of abortions). 25% of those abortions were provided to Catholic women thats 200,000 Catholic abortions. A little searching: https://www.americamagazine.org/sites/default/files/attachments/CatholicWomenStudy_AmericaMedia.pdf
shows that among Catholic women:
71% want to be mothers
59% go to church 1/week
78% have no doubt that God exists
48% are proud to identify l themselves as Catholic
52% agree prayer is essential and pray at least 1/day sometimes more than one
68% say they are living lives consistent with Church teachings

Looking at the above figures it is safe to say that over half of Catholic women consider themselves practicing Catholics not just box checkers. So, over half of Catholic abortions or about 100,000+ are performed for women that are living lives consistent with Catholic teachings. Slightly less than 100,000 abortion are for Catholics that you scornfully call box checkers. They're probably perfectly good Catholics but just not up to your obsessive standard.

What the statistics say is that Catholic women, practicing and box checkers, when faced with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy, one that will disrupt the family stability or security or finances do the thing that is best for the family: they get abortions 200,000 of them every year.

 

[weaver2]

There were 800,000 abortion in 2017(last reported date for tabulation of abortions). 25% of those abortions were provided to Catholic women thats 200,000 Catholic abortions. A little searching: https://www.americamagazine.org/sites/default/files/attachments/CatholicWomenStudy_AmericaMedia.pdf
shows that among Catholic women:
71% want to be mothers
59% go to church 1/week
78% have no doubt that God exists
48% are proud to identify l themselves as Catholic
52% agree prayer is essential and pray at least 1/day sometimes more than one
68% say they are living lives consistent with Church teachings

Looking at the above figures it is safe to say that over half of Catholic women consider themselves practicing Catholics not just box checkers. So, over half of Catholic abortions or about 100,000+ are performed for women that are living lives consistent with Catholic teachings. Slightly less than 100,000 abortion are for Catholics that you scornfully call box checkers. They're probably perfectly good Catholics but just not up to your obsessive standard.

What the statistics say is that Catholic women, practicing and box checkers, when faced with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy, one that will disrupt the family stability or security or finances do the thing that is best for the family: they get abortions 200,000 of them every year.

Good Catholics get abortions because it makes sense not to destroy your family with a child or another child that the family can't support either emotionally or financially or physically