• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Records of Ancient Civilizations

MaryP

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2018
Messages
18,799
Reaction score
10,736
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
But from all evidence so far, it was built not by a "civilization, but by hunter-gatherers. Likely as a location where many groups would come together for various reasons. That my be religious, for trade, or many other things. And this is not unlike many of the American Indian tribes into the recent era. Still widely scattered nomadic groups, simply returning to the same location over and over again.

As such, it would not be a "civilization", simply a location that multiple groups came together in. A step in the right direction, but not there yet.

One of the fascinating things about looking at pre-Columbian America is that we can see such examples much closer. As the Indians remained in a Neolithic state for many thousands of years longer, many anthropologists look to them to try and interpret what has been found more recently. And to me, Göbekli Tepe brings to mind the Mississippian Culture. Once again, largely multiple groups that started to work together, at the same time that agriculture started to spread in the area. Even building edifices and large structures.

But it was not a "civilization", simply a kind of confederation of dozens of different tribal groups. And only lasted a few hundred years before imploding and the various tribes scattering again. Hence, why it is called a "culture", and not a "civilization". Even though they had built large structures, trade routs, and the starts of cities it did not last, never unified, and soon dissolved again.
What was missing at Gobekli Tepe that makes the builders not a civilization?
 

Oozlefinch

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
15,833
Reaction score
11,511
Location
State of Jefferson
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
What was missing at Gobekli Tepe that makes the builders not a civilization?

Uhhhh, everything?

Cities, agriculture, evidence of trade? There was none of this, it was simply a gathering place for multiple hunter-gatherer groups.

It is no more a "civilization" than the various rendezvous that happened in the US for hundreds and thousands of years.
 

MaryP

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2018
Messages
18,799
Reaction score
10,736
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
Uhhhh, everything?

Cities, agriculture, evidence of trade? There was none of this, it was simply a gathering place for multiple hunter-gatherer groups.

It is no more a "civilization" than the various rendezvous that happened in the US for hundreds and thousands of years.
Maybe they haven't found everything yet.

Work on foundations needed to support the site's swooping fabric canopy required archaeologists to dig deeper that Schmidt ever had. Under the direction of Schmidt's successor, Lee Clare, a German Archaeological Institute team dug several "keyhole" trenches down to the site's bedrock, several metres below the floors of the large buildings. "We had a unique chance," Clare said, "to go look in the lowest layers and deposits of the site."

New discoveries at Gobekli Tepe and closer looks at the results of earlier excavations are upending Schmidt's initial interpretations of the site

What Clare and his colleagues found may rewrite prehistory yet again. The digs revealed evidence of houses and year-round settlement, suggesting that Gobekli Tepe wasn't an isolated temple visited on special occasions but a rather a thriving village with large special buildings at its centre.
The team also identified a large cistern and channels for collecting rainwater, key to supporting a settlement on the dry mountaintop, and thousands of grinding tools for processing grain for cooking porridge and brewing beer. "Gobekli Tepe is still a unique, special site, but the new insights fit better with what we know from other sites," Clare said. "It was a fully-fledged settlement with permanent occupation. It's changed our whole understanding of the site."

 

Oozlefinch

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
15,833
Reaction score
11,511
Location
State of Jefferson
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
The digs revealed evidence of houses and year-round settlement, suggesting that Gobekli Tepe wasn't an isolated temple visited on special occasions but a rather a thriving village with large special buildings at its centre.

And once again, such was the case of the Mississippian Culture as well.

But it is still lacking the things that make a collection of groups a "civilization".

Even in pre-Columbian America we had both. Both civilizations like the Aztecs, but it also takes a unification into a singular group. We know the Mississippians were on the way, but imploded before they got there. And from the evidence at Gobekli Tepe they probably hit the same barrier. Getting close, but for some reason never crossing over into a unified body.

One thing about anthropology, there are many examples over and over of groups getting close, but not quite making the next step. Sometimes it is in writing, or math, or even creating a stable government that survives past a single ruler or dynasty. Buildings do not make a "civilization", it may be no more than one or two members of each tribal group that remain with those to support them to maintain the location year round. Maybe priests, or something different.

Once again, we have seen this in various rendezvous in North America. Sometimes returning to the same location year after year after year, sometimes moving each year. Some of them even becoming "permanent settlements", but still never advancing beyond hunter-gatherers and a handful of different groups simply returning for trade and other reasons before departing again.

Without agriculture, that is all it would ever be. Different scattered groups that are always on the move, and never unifying into a single settled community. We could see this first hand in the Mississippians, because when the culture imploded it dissolved right back into the various groups that it had formed from a century or so before. Most of them resuming a nomadic existence, many even becoming little more than tribes of raiders that started to migrate across the continent.

What I would love to have them discover at Gobekli Tepe would be enough various fragments so we could get a DNA profile of these groups. That could tell us a lot more. Like where they ended up after that site was abandoned.

But in this same general region and era we had many other cultures. The Natufian for example, as well as the Kebaran, Mushabian, and Nemrikian cultures. Each of which did later spawn civilizations however. The Natufian may have been the seed that both the Semitic and Egyptian civilizations rose from (there is much DNA evidence to support this), and the Nemrikian spawned the Chaldean and Neo-Babylonian Civilizations. Which by the way is different than the Babylonian Civilization.

Anthropologists are still trying to piece together all the various migrations that humans were making in the Paleolithic and Neolithic eras. And even though "communities" were appearing as early as the Upper Paleolithic (including structures), none appear to have ever really been "permanent". Most likely only inhabited for a handful of years until the local environment was largely stripped, then packing up and moving on again.
 

MaryP

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2018
Messages
18,799
Reaction score
10,736
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
And once again, such was the case of the Mississippian Culture as well.

But it is still lacking the things that make a collection of groups a "civilization".

Even in pre-Columbian America we had both. Both civilizations like the Aztecs, but it also takes a unification into a singular group. We know the Mississippians were on the way, but imploded before they got there. And from the evidence at Gobekli Tepe they probably hit the same barrier. Getting close, but for some reason never crossing over into a unified body.

One thing about anthropology, there are many examples over and over of groups getting close, but not quite making the next step. Sometimes it is in writing, or math, or even creating a stable government that survives past a single ruler or dynasty. Buildings do not make a "civilization", it may be no more than one or two members of each tribal group that remain with those to support them to maintain the location year round. Maybe priests, or something different.

Once again, we have seen this in various rendezvous in North America. Sometimes returning to the same location year after year after year, sometimes moving each year. Some of them even becoming "permanent settlements", but still never advancing beyond hunter-gatherers and a handful of different groups simply returning for trade and other reasons before departing again.

Without agriculture, that is all it would ever be. Different scattered groups that are always on the move, and never unifying into a single settled community. We could see this first hand in the Mississippians, because when the culture imploded it dissolved right back into the various groups that it had formed from a century or so before. Most of them resuming a nomadic existence, many even becoming little more than tribes of raiders that started to migrate across the continent.

What I would love to have them discover at Gobekli Tepe would be enough various fragments so we could get a DNA profile of these groups. That could tell us a lot more. Like where they ended up after that site was abandoned.

But in this same general region and era we had many other cultures. The Natufian for example, as well as the Kebaran, Mushabian, and Nemrikian cultures. Each of which did later spawn civilizations however. The Natufian may have been the seed that both the Semitic and Egyptian civilizations rose from (there is much DNA evidence to support this), and the Nemrikian spawned the Chaldean and Neo-Babylonian Civilizations. Which by the way is different than the Babylonian Civilization.

Anthropologists are still trying to piece together all the various migrations that humans were making in the Paleolithic and Neolithic eras. And even though "communities" were appearing as early as the Upper Paleolithic (including structures), none appear to have ever really been "permanent". Most likely only inhabited for a handful of years until the local environment was largely stripped, then packing up and moving on again.
I was hoping for a simpler answer as to what was missing. It didn't last long enough to suit you?
 

Oozlefinch

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
15,833
Reaction score
11,511
Location
State of Jefferson
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I was hoping for a simpler answer as to what was missing. It didn't last long enough to suit you?

It did not evolve enough. It did not unify into a single "civilization".

It can even be argued that the United States until the Civil War was not yet such, just a conglomeration of many different groups. Very different, largely acting on their own until afterwards when it changed and finally accepted a "single identity".

A gathering of multiple different groups with no permanent roots does not make up a "civilization".
 

MaryP

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2018
Messages
18,799
Reaction score
10,736
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
It did not evolve enough. It did not unify into a single "civilization".

It can even be argued that the United States until the Civil War was not yet such, just a conglomeration of many different groups. Very different, largely acting on their own until afterwards when it changed and finally accepted a "single identity".

A gathering of multiple different groups with no permanent roots does not make up a "civilization".
Thanks for the answer.

Six miles away was Sanliurfa (possibly ancient Ur) which began about the same time. I'll be interested in if there's any connection. Old, old stories there, huh?
 

HK.227

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
1,620
Reaction score
600
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Many of the runes look very much like letters from Alpine alphabets, while other has uncanny resemblence to Greek letters. Most likley the runic script was created by Germanic travellers who had seen other alphabets and decided to create a writing system for their own language.

Jackson Crawford has a good video about it.

I like Jackson Crawford, especially how he has begun to focus more on archaeology and philology in his work. :)
Once he gets around to covering anthropology and folkloristics too, he'll should truly be a force to be reckoned with.
 

Gladiator

Verifier
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
4,605
Reaction score
633
Location
Suburbia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent

Gladiator

Verifier
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
4,605
Reaction score
633
Location
Suburbia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Here's a photo of a model of the ancient Cuban city;




Contradictory facts and theories. Large stone cut precisely. Alien technology, Angels?


//
 
Last edited:

Oozlefinch

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
15,833
Reaction score
11,511
Location
State of Jefferson
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
What is the origin of the underwater ruins, 2300 Feet deep, of a city near the North West coast of Cuba?

Geology, just like the ones off of Okinawa.

As geologists have said clearly, it would have taken over 50,000 years for those "structures" to be at that depth. And as there were no humans in that area at all, that means it was entirely something natural.

It is no more "man made" than the "Giant's Causeway" in Ireland.

And you know, those "images" are entirely fictitious, right? Not a single one of those "images" is real, just fabrications that are on one of the most well known "junk science" sites out there. Nothing from "Ancient-Origins.Net" should ever be taken as anything but a complete joke.

Like the completely nonsensical claim they recently posted that "Neanderthal-Human Sex Caused a Million COVID Deaths". Well, that was a great headline to try and get people to read their junk science clickbait site. However, that completely falls apart when one realizes that the human population on the planet which has the least amount of "Neanderthal DNA" on the planet actually has one of the highest death rates from COVID. Just knowing that Caucasians have around 2.6% Neanderthal DNA and Blacks have around 0.3% Neanderthal DNA (yet Blacks were almost twice as likely to die from COVID than Caucasians) kinda blows that theory completely out of the water.

Or that ancient megaliths focus electro-magnetic currents and produce particles that cause spiritual energies to affect humans.

That site is like 1% real science, and 99% junk science. And should never be taken seriously as they blend in junk even in their semi-accurate science articles.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom