Recession Ended in June 2009

[buck]

As was the same partisan hackery when the FDIC (they claimed it would end private enterprise) was established, medicare was introduced (they claimed we were becoming socialists), and when FDA/SEC regulations (they claimed that it would force costs to skyrocket) were put in place. Hmmmm.

How did that all work out?

I have no idea. I didn’t get my crystal ball that will allow me to see how things would be if certain legislation hadn’t been passed. Would things have been better? :shrug:

BTW, I read a decent opinion piece not too long ago about how Medicare/Medicaid is responsible for much of the medical inflation we have had since they were implemented. Just as an aside. Not something I particularly want to discuss, but just lends credence that we just don’t know how things would have been otherwise.

 

[buck]

Are you infering that we should lower our standards so to re-establish a labor comparative advantage during a time when our capital comparative advantage provides a greater positive long term growth outlook? Great idea; strive to be like China (who is striving to be like us).

Yes, I do not believe that cap and trade is good legislation and it will lead to increased and unnecessary costs - and cost jobs. I also feel the same way about the health care reform that was recently passed. Additionally, while I think some regulation is good, I think there is such a thing as too much regulation. Have we reached that point? I am not certain. However, I can tell you that many CEO’s of some of the world’s largest corporations seem to think so, or are at least worried about what is next.

 

[Kushinator]

Yes, I do not believe that cap and trade is good legislation and it will lead to increased and unnecessary costs - and cost jobs. I also feel the same way about the health care reform that was recently passed. Additionally, while I think some regulation is good, I think there is such a thing as too much regulation. Have we reached that point? I am not certain. However, I can tell you that many CEO’s of some of the world’s largest corporations seem to think so, or are at least worried about what is next.

Your opinions are noted.

 

[ricksfolly]

It fits the definition of a recession, but it does not imply that we've actually recovered fully.

Actually, there's no such thing as full recovery. At best unemployment will still be 4 to 5 percent, people will still lose their houses and cars, rental, poverty, and inflation will be about the same, businesses and banks will still fail, and health costs will keep going up.

ricksfolly

 

[ptif219]

Nope. As soon as they know people are spending, they'll hire just fine. there is no evidence to support your claim at all.

So the rise in expense Obama has put on them has no influence on their business model this year? HAHAHA thats funny.

 

[ptif219]

This is not how (most) business operates; under the premise of "waiting" for tax policy to be implemented. I stress the word most because future tax policy is an integral part for hedge funds and various private trusts.

Unless of course the actions since 2000 (when surpluses turned into massive deficits) did not send the signal to all businesses that tax increases are necessary requisites for future deficit reduction. If you or anyone was in business during this time, i have a hard time believing that you were both competent and not expecting tax increases in the wake of trillions upon trillions of added debt.

My :twocents:

If it was just tax but their will be huge costs connected to Obamacare

 

[ptif219]

Wrong, the corporate tax structure will remain as it always does... they don't really pay taxes. And states can now regulate inappropriate rises in health care costs.

You are sadly misinformed about a great number of things.

Wrong in that they will have to increase prices to make up the cost of taxes the market may not allow that. The feds have huge power over state with Obamacare that is why states are going to court over it

 

[Boo Radley]

They were blaming outsourcing, which was accurate. The CEO's are saying that they see a potential cap and trade policy, health care reform, regulations, etc increasing the cost of doing business. So, they are going to increase their efforts to hire outside of the country where the enviroment is more business friendly. They don't want to make large investments at home.

Currently, there are many jobs that are not particuarly beneficial to outsource (from a cost benefit perspective). As costs continue to increase at home - due to the previously mentioned items - that entire metric can change. While the job may not have been cost effective to outsource, it now is.

You can see the same thing happening between states. As the cost of doing business in the state increases (due to taxes, etc) companies become more likely to move to a different state.

I don't buy that. I saw one state, New Mexico I think it was, eliminate all business tax, and they, business, moved anyway. Tax had no effect on them. The fact is paying 50 cents an hour and not having to worry healthcare at all, because most countries either don't have it or it is government run and not employment based. Whining about taxes is more a red herring than anything else IMHO.

 

[Boo Radley]

So the rise in expense Obama has put on them has no influence on their business model this year? HAHAHA thats funny.

No, it really hasn't. First, nothing has happen to speak of yet. Second, if people were buying, they'd be hiring. It really is that simple.

 

[ptif219]

No, it really hasn't. First, nothing has happen to speak of yet. Second, if people were buying, they'd be hiring. It really is that simple.

US has 4th highest coporate tax rate in the world and that is not enough. This is why jobs leave and why taxes is something companies have to look at before they hire. Now we have Obamacare. If these expenses cut into the profit they can not hire for the profit will not justify it.

New Data Show U.S. Has Fourth Highest Corporate Tax Rate

A new corporate tax survey by KPMG makes clear that this is only the first of many needed business tax reforms in the United States.

KPMG found that the United States has the fourth highest corporate income tax rate in the 30-nation Organiza-tion for Economic Co-operation and Development.[1] The combined U.S. federal and average state rate of 40 percent is almost 9 percentage points higher than the average OECD top corporate rate of 31.4 percent.[2] Only Belgium, Italy, and Japan have higher rates than that of the United States.

 

[buck]

Sorry double post.

 

[buck]

I don't buy that. I saw one state, New Mexico I think it was, eliminate all business tax, and they, business, moved anyway.

Yeah... That's not at all true. The states that don't have a corporate income tax have not had one in forever. So, it would be impossible to reach the conclusion that you did. There are currently a few states looking to eliminate their business income tax.

 

[washunut]

I don't buy that. I saw one state, New Mexico I think it was, eliminate all business tax, and they, business, moved anyway. Tax had no effect on them. The fact is paying 50 cents an hour and not having to worry healthcare at all, because most countries either don't have it or it is government run and not employment based. Whining about taxes is more a red herring than anything else IMHO.

Look at Reno Nev. It has grown into a very large distribution center location. The reason being it is right across from Calif. But materially lower state taxes.

 

[obvious Child]

As a truck driver I know frieght improved since april. That means we may level off. I believe you will not see hiring until companies know how taxes and helthcare will affect their profits.

Not really. More like companies start seeing increased demand and the ability to get credit. Taxes and healthcare be damned if you can't get credit to buy a machine you need.

 

[obvious Child]

Boo doesn't live in a world of Businesses and Reality, just liberal Ideology

One could easily say the same for you.

Of course Businesses of all stripes are holding down, and prepping for the worst

Is that why the recent job reports show net gains? Is that why corporate spending is on the rise? Oh wait. That doesn't make sense with your argument.

 

[obvious Child]

US has 4th highest coporate tax rate in the world and that is not enough.

Look at the date of your article.

High Corporate Tax Rate Is Misleading - Investing - Economy - SmartMoney.com

Second, no one gives a **** about statutory rates. US marginal effective is quite low when you account for the tax loops.

 

[obvious Child]

Look at Reno Nev. It has grown into a very large distribution center location. The reason being it is right across from Calif. But materially lower state taxes.

No, not really. A large distribution center implies that one is shipping vast amount of goods. Easily enough to produce a tax nexus within California. That pretty much negates the argument of lower state taxes. I suspect it has more do with really cheap land, utilities and labor laws rather then state income taxes.

 

[washunut]

No, not really. A large distribution center implies that one is shipping vast amount of goods. Easily enough to produce a tax nexus within California. That pretty much negates the argument of lower state taxes. I suspect it has more do with really cheap land, utilities and labor laws rather then state income taxes.

It is a combination of all of the above. State taxes is certainly an issue in the equation.

 

[upsideguy]

As a truck driver I know frieght improved since april. That means we may level off. I believe you will not see hiring until companies know how taxes and helthcare will affect their profits.

Taxes and healthcare costs are, at best, a trediary factor in hiring. Hiring has everything to do with sustainable demand for a product and expected growth and little to do with anything else.

 

[upsideguy]

US has 4th highest coporate tax rate in the world and that is not enough. This is why jobs leave and why taxes is something companies have to look at before they hire. Now we have Obamacare. If these expenses cut into the profit they can not hire for the profit will not justify it.

New Data Show U.S. Has Fourth Highest Corporate Tax Rate

A new corporate tax survey by KPMG makes clear that this is only the first of many needed business tax reforms in the United States.

KPMG found that the United States has the fourth highest corporate income tax rate in the 30-nation Organiza-tion for Economic Co-operation and Development.[1] The combined U.S. federal and average state rate of 40 percent is almost 9 percentage points higher than the average OECD top corporate rate of 31.4 percent.[2] Only Belgium, Italy, and Japan have higher rates than that of the United States.

All nice theory, but few companies actually pay tax at the highest corporate rates. The largest US companies largely offshore their profits (many have moved their HQ to Dubai or Grand Cayman or Bermuda, including KPMG), anyway, and pay almost no tax. In fact, 2 out of every 3 corporations pay NO TAX.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/06/exxon-tax/ (yes, this is a liberal site)

That said, I would be in favor of lowering corporate tax rates and eliminating many of the transfer pricing loopholes (in other words, make them pay the tax!)

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/category/corporation-tax/

http://www.treas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/subpartf.pdf

US Corporations are bearing something on the order of 8% of the Federal tax burden today compared to over 30% 30 years ago (cite forthcoming).

You want personal tax relief? Close corporate loopholes.

 

[Gardener]

Do you agree?

Not based upon my own business, certainly. 2007 was great, there was a big drop off in 08, and 10 has been about the same as 08 and 09.

 

[Boo Radley]

US has 4th highest coporate tax rate in the world and that is not enough. This is why jobs leave and why taxes is something companies have to look at before they hire. Now we have Obamacare. If these expenses cut into the profit they can not hire for the profit will not justify it.

New Data Show U.S. Has Fourth Highest Corporate Tax Rate

A new corporate tax survey by KPMG makes clear that this is only the first of many needed business tax reforms in the United States.

KPMG found that the United States has the fourth highest corporate income tax rate in the 30-nation Organiza-tion for Economic Co-operation and Development.[1] The combined U.S. federal and average state rate of 40 percent is almost 9 percentage points higher than the average OECD top corporate rate of 31.4 percent.[2] Only Belgium, Italy, and Japan have higher rates than that of the United States.

Someone already pointed out the date. But no matter where they rank, that doesn't automatically prove that was the reason for them leaving. Again, one state did away with taxes all together. So, why did they leave?

 

[buck]

Again, one state did away with taxes all together. So, why did they leave?

Which state would that be again that just recently eliminated corporate income taxes and all the businesses fled?

Additionally, you seem to think that we are arguing that the only thing businesses are going to look at is the corporate income tax rate they will pay. That is not what we are saying. Tax rate is only one item, and not an unimportant one, that a business will look at.

 

[Boo Radley]

Which state would that be again that just recently eliminated corporate income taxes and all the businesses fled?

Additionally, you seem to think that we are arguing that the only thing businesses are going to look at is the corporate income tax rate they will pay. That is not what we are saying. Tax rate is only one item, and not an unimportant one, that a business will look at.

I think it was New Mexico, and it wasn't recent.

As for other factors, exactly. Wage and healthcare, as I said, are far larger factors. But taxes, as can be treaced historically, have not played a large role at all.

 

[buck]

I think it was New Mexico, and it wasn't recent.

Care to try again? New Mexico still has corporate income taxes. Do you mean that the personal income tax was lowered?

As for other factors, exactly. Wage and healthcare, as I said, are far larger factors. But taxes, as can be treaced historically, have not played a large role at all.

Really? You do realize that governors/mayors will often use tax breaks to lure a corporation to their city/state. Cities/States will also use tax breaks to keep corporations from leaving their state.