Real simple:

[jallman]

It's not my time of month. And lucky for you too 'cause when the moon is right I go on the warpath! I always need chocolate though.

I will remember that and keep a box of Godiva truffles on hand for just such an occasion!!!

 

[Noah's Hammer]

Toenails are not human.

The baby that squirms and screams while a doctor is stabbing it to death is human.

Clip your toe nails. It'll do you good. But don't murder an innocent child.

How do you feel about partial birth abortion?

 

[talloulou]

The baby that squirms and screams while a doctor is stabbing it to death is human.

:rofl Now even I can admit that's a little over the top! :rofl I liked it anyway though. A fetus will move away from an amnio needle. If only they could give their mother the finger via forced ultrasound right before being aborted.

 

[Felicity]

:If only they could give their mother the finger via forced ultrasound right before being aborted.

See...now that's why I love ya!!!! Go girl!:lamo

 

[Felicity]

I may have found a new avatar!!!

 

[FutureIncoming]

It is "mental capabilties" that let me, at least, without even being certain of the full list, think I might recognize a person when I interact with one. What criteria would you use, to recognize a generic person?

I've already answered your question.

If blathering words to the effect that there is no such thing as a generic person, that there are only human persons, is what you mean by that, then perhaps I will agree with that quote. Are you ready to ban churches, therefore? On the other hand, if there is some vague chance that you might think that it is not impossible for non-human person-equivalent entities to exist, then you have not answered the question, about how would you recognize a generic person.

I have no tortuous criteria for defining personhood, because I have no agenda that requires it.

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! What a stupid lie! You obviously have the agenda of banning abortions, and you need any excuse you can concoct, to try to support that agenda. Like lying/denying the existing legal definition of "person", which excludes unborn humans. But, tsk, tsk, it won't work; your lies are exposed for all to see.

You have this belief that mental qualities are what make a person.

Actually, I have two beliefs, one for each of two scenarios, because it is not known which scenario is true. One scenario involves souls. If they exist, then they are the persons; the human body is nothing more than an animal/vehicle for a soul/person. And so would any other body that housed a soul, regardless of its physical characteristics. The other scenario excludes souls, and in this one minds are the persons. And again the body is just an animal/vehicle for the person. Regardless of the characteristics of the body. The main difference between the scenarios is the notion that a soul might inhabit a body that we might ordinarily consider to be an animal (such as Koko the gorilla). I don't know of any theoretical restriction barring a soul from inhabiting a bacterium, if it wanted. Which would require us to give that particular bacterium the respect due a person. Meanwhile, a person-class mind cannot exist without considerable behind-the-scenes brainpower-equivalent. (Whatever manner of brainpower-equivalent a soul possesses, I don't care; it must exist for the soul to be able to exhibit such person-class characteristics as Free Will, such that, in the soul-scenario, it can be held responsible for choices made.) For biology-based organisms, we have considerable evidence that the average animal lacks sufficient brainpower for it to exhibit person-class characteristics; only humans are known to routinely have that much brainpower. But there are few theoretical restrictions regarding the possibilities, and plenty of hear-say. You know, alien-abduction reports, for example, would indicate that non-human person-class minds exist. Heh, have you heard the notion that "leprachaun" legends are derived (the "kernel of truth" thing) from crashed space-alien survivors, "little green men", see? With technology sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic, too.

You admit that you cannot quantify them, and claim that you are genuinely interested in learning the answer.

TRUE. With respect to an Absolute Scale, that is.

Yet your posts have the religious zeal of one who thinks he knows the truth and feels compelled to beat others over the head with it.

I am interested in beating the ignorance out of the ignorant, and the lies out of the liars. After all, pro-life arguments against abortion are fundamentally based either on inadequate data (ignorance) or faulty data (lies). The arguments may continue with Bad Logic and Prejudice and Hypocrisy and Excess Selfishness and Arrogance and so on, but they all have to start with data. Since I'm aware that their arguments cannot survive in the presence of adequate/valid data, I don't mind at all zealously dishing it out. Ignorance deserves to be cured, and liars deserve exposure. Science uber stupidity!

Science has not answered the question of consciousness, or whether souls exist.

And this does not matter, since I've explained above how similar are the ways of handling that. Bodies cannot be persons, period.

Your opinion on personhood appears arbitrary, unfinished, and likely to be wrong.

That's "likely" only in your opinion, of course. Meanwhile, your own definition is provably wrong, from both the Scientific and Legal perspectives, as I've explained.

Why would you base life and death decisions on such a belief? It seems to me that the ethical thing to do is to err on the side of protecting innocent life.

"Innocent" in what way? We routinely and automatically kill parasites of all sorts, because they are guilty of parasitism. An unborn human is equally guilty of that, not innocent at all. In spite of this, the life of the unborn human is frequently desired to continue, by the host. And in general that's perfectly fine by me. It's when some non-host declares to have some right to claim what decision a host should make, about being a host, that I object! You don't have any such right. Else I should have the right to tell you that if you contract malaria, you should keep it.


{{to be concluded. last time I was out of space; now I'm out of time. Logical conclusion: I need more space/time!}}

 

[Noah's Hammer]

They've done sonograms of babies during the process of abortion- I don't know exactly what stage the baby was in- the sonogram shows what they call a silent scream.

 

[jallman]

Toenails are not human.

The baby that squirms and screams while a doctor is stabbing it to death is human.

Clip your toe nails. It'll do you good. But don't murder an innocent child.

How do you feel about partial birth abortion?

Human toenails most certainly are human. If you disagree with that, then maybe we should free the hundreds of criminals put away due to the DNA evidence.

If a baby is being stabbed to death by a doctor, then that doctor is a murderer. During an abortion, a baby is not stabbed to death, but rather a specialized mass of human cells is being removed from the uterus by an approved medical procedure.

Partial birth abortions are inhumane and barbaric. After the threshold of personhood has been crossed 20-22 weeks, but in the interest of caution, my preference would be 18 weeks), there is no excuse whatsoever for the abortion of a being that is self aware, spatially sensitive, and can clearly interact with it's environment. Besides, at 18 weeks, the woman has had plenty of time to decide whether she wants to be preggers or not. When the thalamus attaches to the cortex, there is a vested social interest in protecting the rights of the unborn.

 

[Noah's Hammer]

If blathering words to the effect that there is no such thing as a generic person, that there are only human persons, is what you mean by that, then perhaps I will agree with that quote. Are you ready to ban churches, therefore? On the other hand, if there is some vague chance that you might think that it is not impossible for non-human person-equivalent entities to exist, then you have not answered the question, about how would you recognize a generic person.

HAW! HAW!! HAW!!! What a stupid lie! You obviously have the agenda of banning abortions, and you need any excuse you can concoct, to try to support that agenda. Like lying/denying the existing legal definition of "person", which excludes unborn humans. But, tsk, tsk, it won't work; your lies are exposed for all to see.

Actually, I have two beliefs, one for each of two scenarios, because it is not known which scenario is true. One scenario involves souls. If they exist, then they are the persons; the human body is nothing more than an animal/vehicle for a soul/person. And so would any other body that housed a soul, regardless of its physical characteristics. The other scenario excludes souls, and in this one minds are the persons. And again the body is just an animal/vehicle for the person. Regardless of the characteristics of the body. The main difference between the scenarios is the notion that a soul might inhabit a body that we might ordinarily consider to be an animal (such as Koko the gorilla). I don't know of any theoretical restriction barring a soul from inhabiting a bacterium, if it wanted. Which would require us to give that particular bacterium the respect due a person. Meanwhile, a person-class mind cannot exist without considerable behind-the-scenes brainpower-equivalent. (Whatever manner of brainpower-equivalent a soul possesses, I don't care; it must exist for the soul to be able to exhibit such person-class characteristics as Free Will, such that, in the soul-scenario, it can be held responsible for choices made.) For biology-based organisms, we have considerable evidence that the average animal lacks sufficient brainpower for it to exhibit person-class characteristics; only humans are known to routinely have that much brainpower. But there are few theoretical restrictions regarding the possibilities, and plenty of hear-say. You know, alien-abduction reports, for example, would indicate that non-human person-class minds exist. Heh, have you heard the notion that "leprachaun" legends are derived (the "kernel of truth" thing) from crashed space-alien survivors, "little green men", see? With technology sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic, too.

TRUE. With respect to an Absolute Scale, that is.

I am interested in beating the ignorance out of the ignorant, and the lies out of the liars. After all, pro-life arguments against abortion are fundamentally based either on inadequate data (ignorance) or faulty data (lies). The arguments may continue with Bad Logic and Prejudice and Hypocrisy and Excess Selfishness and Arrogance and so on, but they all have to start with data. Since I'm aware that their arguments cannot survive in the presence of adequate/valid data, I don't mind at all zealously dishing it out. Ignorance deserves to be cured, and liars deserve exposure. Science uber stupidity!

And this does not matter, since I've explained above how similar are the ways of handling that. Bodies cannot be persons, period.

That's "likely" only in your opinion, of course. Meanwhile, your own definition is provably wrong, from both the Scientific and Legal perspectives, as I've explained.

"Innocent" in what way? We routinely and automatically kill parasites of all sorts, because they are guilty of parasitism. An unborn human is equally guilty of that, not innocent at all. In spite of this, the life of the unborn human is frequently desired to continue, by the host. And in general that's perfectly fine by me. It's when some non-host declares to have some right to claim what decision a host should make, about being a host, that I object! You don't have any such right. Else I should have the right to tell you that if you contract malaria, you should keep it.


{{to be concluded. last time I was out of space; now I'm out of time. Logical conclusion: I need more space/time!}}

Did you just compare a human child in the womb to a parasite. May God help you.

 

[Felicity]

If blathering words to...

Oh...the irony :doh

{{to be concluded. last time I was out of space; now I'm out of time. Logical conclusion: I need more space/time!}}

We are all waiting with bated breath...:roll:

 

[Felicity]

Did you just compare a human child in the womb to a parasite. May god help you.

You'll get used to it...it's not uncommon here...

 

[Noah's Hammer]

Like your avatar. I wonder if it pricks the conscience of on proabortionists here.

 

[Felicity]

Like your avatar. I wonder if it pricks the conscience of on proabortionists here.

Probably not the ones who think fetus' are merely "parasites."

It's a close up of Da Vinci's drawing of a fetus...

 

[Noah's Hammer]

Keep those visual reminders coming. It is truly baffling to me how any one could say that its OK for a mother to choose to butcher such a beautiful human baby as is depicted in that picture.

 

[Felicity]

Others...

 

[Felicity]

Keep those visual reminders coming. It is truly baffling to me how any one could say that its OK for a mother to choose to butcher such a beautiful human baby as is depicted in that picture.

I agree that a picture is worth a thousand words...but I avoid the bloody ones, usually, precisely because I think it is beneath the baby's dignity to be displayed in such degradation.

 

[Monkey Mind]

If blathering words ... etc

If at all possible, please try to restrain yourself and communicate succintly. The constant insults and personal attacks are also unnecessary. Feel free to keep them up though, it's funny to watch. Maybe this thread has a future in the basement.

Just letting you know that I've seen your posts and intend to respond when I have time. Probably 10 pages from now, but nevertheless...

 

[OKgrannie]

They've done sonograms of babies during the process of abortion- I don't know exactly what stage the baby was in- the sonogram shows what they call a silent scream.

Are you talking about that old fraudulent movie The Silent Scream?

Silent Scream -- Monday, Mar. 25, 1985 -- Printout -- TIME

 

[talloulou]

Are you talking about that old fraudulent movie The Silent Scream?

Silent Scream -- Monday, Mar. 25, 1985 -- Printout -- TIME

As for the silent scream, says Johns Hopkins Neurobiologist David Bodian, doctors have no evidence that a twelve-week-old fetus can feel pain, though "there is a possibility of a reflex movement" in response to stimuli like surgical instruments.

Ya think?? :rofl

By the way for a long time drs. felt all born babies were encapable of feeling pain and thus they didn't need anesthesia for surgery. All the crying out was just seen as "reflex." Now they know better. :roll:

It's retarded like the old question, "Do dogs dream?" Anyone who owns one knows they do. Might as well ask do dogs fart in my opinion.

Hobbins suggests that the dramatic scream may have been a fetal yawn, because "the fetus spends lots of time with its mouth open."

Yes I'm sure the response to surgical instruments was boredom and yawning. :rofl

I honestly don't know if the silent scream movie is bull$hit or not. I'm not gonna defend it and call it legit. But I gotta say Bodian and Hobbins sound like real crackpots to me.

Does planned parenthood's website still claim it's possible that the fetus is never able to feel pain? :roll:

Oh the things we tell ourselves in order to sleep at night.

 

[talloulou]

Seeing the Embryo or Fetus

Some women fear seeing the embryo or fetus during abortion.

Planned Parenthood - Risks & Side Effects

That's cause it might be giving them the finger.

It is even possible that a fetus is unable to perceive pain at any time during pregnancy.

Yep apparently they're still lying. You'd be hard pressed to find a legitimate dr. to agree with that statement.
I guess you know anything is possible.

Some day pigs may in fact fly. One day I might $hit out a golden egg too.

Planned Parenthood - Risks & Side Effects

 

[doughgirl]

“ Prior to 22 weeks, the thalamus and the cortex are not connected. Those are the structural components necessary for any possibility of thought and awareness. Personhood is dependent upon that requisite being met. I sufficiently met your challenge in designating that as the critical point of development and raising the ZEF to the status of personhood.”

Come on jallman, so my little neice born at 21 ½ weeks was not a person?

Why did they sedate her when they did surgery on her? Funny when my sister touched her she moved.

Noah said, “There were no laws prohibiting the marriage of homosexuals until recently as well. But it's not because the founding father's were sympathetic to homosexuality in their time. It is because it has for the most part been a non-issue until recently.’

That is because at that time we were a Christian nation until the HUMANISTS raped it. We always stood on bible principles, today we do not and look at the chaos the LEFT so defends. Homosexual marriage was unthinkable as abortion was as well. woman might have done it but no one talked about it. Woman today dont talk about it.

Yea why don't woman today really talk about the abortions they get? Why don't you pro-choice/abortion people tell us why? Hey if its perfectly acceptable, its not human, not a person.........and woman have free choice why not talk about it? Its legal remember.

"Hey Linda I can't have lunch Tuesday, I'm scheduled for another abortion."

"Hey George why werent you at bowling yesterday?" "Hell Fred I had to take my wife for an abortion, but I'll make it next week."

"Kids I'm sorry i cant take ya to the park today, mommies got to have an abortion"

"You know Pastor, I wasnt feeling good enough to come to church last Sunday, I had an abortion on Saturday. Do have the congregation pray for me."

Who really talks about abortion? We talk about other surgeries.........we talk about masterbation, sex, why not abortion? :rofl Why is it still taboo?????????????????????

We all know why........you dont even have to address it.

“Abortion has always gone on, and abortifacient patent medicines were sold openly in America from the time of the establishment of the original 13 colonies, onward.”

Hell jallman, so did rape and incest but should we make them legal as well just because some people do it?

Roberdorus said, “It shouldn't be decided by nine people.”

You got that right. Nine people who imposed their immorality on an entire nation. All based on lies and more lies. A decision that places a bullseye on every unborn child that is conceived in the womb. A decision that puts a loaded gun in every womans hand.


You see Noah, they measure personhood by the size it is, not what is happening internally. They believe for the most part that personhood happens after you take the baby home from the hospital and has nothing to do by the stage of development that it’s at. They do not care if its small, big, looks like a baby, hearts beating........they condone the womans right to kill, and thats the bottom line. They skirt around the issue because none have the guts to just say it like it is. Because to really say it......I mean how bad would that look?



Well grannie you take the cake with this statement

………..”OK, abortion isn't immoral because it doesn't effect another "person". “

ROTFLMAO if you don’t think this is immoral then fly me to the moon………


This is what you think is so humane grannie………


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Images/PBA_Images_Heathers_Place.htm


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/Haskellinstructional.pdf

“The physician rotates the fetus to a footling breech position. The body of the fetus is then drawn out of the uterus feet first, until only the head remains inside the uterus. Then, the physician uses an instrument to puncture the base of the skull, which collapses the fetal head. Typically, the contents of the fetal head are then partially suctioned out, which results in the death of the fetus and reduces the size of the fetal head enough to allow it to pass through the cervix. The dead and otherwise intact fetus is then removed from the woman's body.”
“A specific area of controversy with D&X is that fetal death does not occur until after most of the fetal body has exited the uterus.”

And its not a person, its not human, its nothing right grannie? Just a heart that has been beating since the first month…….just measurable brain waves since the first month.

Newsweek states, “Life in the womb represents the next frontier for studies of human development and the early explorations of the frontier-through ultrasound, fiber-optic cameras, miniature microphones-have yielded startling discoveries. With any hype at all, the fetus can rightly be called a marvel of cognition, consciousness and sentience. Scientists have already detected sentience (self-awarness) in the second trimester.” (Begley, “Do You Hear What I Hear?” page 12)

 

[doughgirl]

“ Prior to 22 weeks, the thalamus and the cortex are not connected. Those are the structural components necessary for any possibility of thought and awareness. Personhood is dependent upon that requisite being met. I sufficiently met your challenge in designating that as the critical point of development and raising the ZEF to the status of personhood.”

Come on jallman, so my little neice born at 21 ½ weeks was not a person?

Why did they sedate her when they did surgery on her? Funny when my sister touched her she moved.

Noah said, “There were no laws prohibiting the marriage of homosexuals until recently as well. But it's not because the founding father's were sympathetic to homosexuality in their time. It is because it has for the most part been a non-issue until recently.’

That is because at that time we were a Christian nation until the HUMANISTS raped it. We always stood on bible principles, today we do not and look at the chaos the LEFT so defends. Homosexual marriage was unthinkable as abortion was as well. woman might have done it but no one talked about it. Woman today dont talk about it.

Yea why don't woman today really talk about the abortions they get? Why don't you pro-choice/abortion people tell us why? Hey if its perfectly acceptable, its not human, not a person.........and woman have free choice why not talk about it? Its legal remember.

"Hey Linda I can't have lunch Tuesday, I'm scheduled for another abortion."

"Hey George why werent you at bowling yesterday?" "Hell Fred I had to take my wife for an abortion, but I'll make it next week."

"Kids I'm sorry i cant take ya to the park today, mommies got to have an abortion"

"You know Pastor, I wasnt feeling good enough to come to church last Sunday, I had an abortion on Saturday. Do have the congregation pray for me."

Who really talks about abortion? We talk about other surgeries.........we talk about masterbation, sex, why not abortion? :rofl Why is it still taboo?????????????????????

We all know why........you dont even have to address it.

“Abortion has always gone on, and abortifacient patent medicines were sold openly in America from the time of the establishment of the original 13 colonies, onward.”

Hell jallman, so did rape and incest but should we make them legal as well just because some people do it?

Roberdorus said, “It shouldn't be decided by nine people.”

You got that right. Nine people who imposed their immorality on an entire nation. All based on lies and more lies. A decision that places a bullseye on every unborn child that is conceived in the womb. A decision that puts a loaded gun in every womans hand.


You see Noah, they measure personhood by the size it is, not what is happening internally. They believe for the most part that personhood happens after you take the baby home from the hospital and has nothing to do by the stage of development that it’s at. They do not care if its small, big, looks like a baby, hearts beating........they condone the womans right to kill, and thats the bottom line. They skirt around the issue because none have the guts to just say it like it is. Because to really say it......I mean how bad would that look?



Well grannie you take the cake with this statement

………..”OK, abortion isn't immoral because it doesn't effect another "person". “

ROTFLMAO if you don’t think this is immoral then fly me to the moon………


This is what you think is so humane grannie………


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Images/PBA_Images_Heathers_Place.htm


http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/Haskellinstructional.pdf

“The physician rotates the fetus to a footling breech position. The body of the fetus is then drawn out of the uterus feet first, until only the head remains inside the uterus. Then, the physician uses an instrument to puncture the base of the skull, which collapses the fetal head. Typically, the contents of the fetal head are then partially suctioned out, which results in the death of the fetus and reduces the size of the fetal head enough to allow it to pass through the cervix. The dead and otherwise intact fetus is then removed from the woman's body.”
“A specific area of controversy with D&X is that fetal death does not occur until after most of the fetal body has exited the uterus.”

And its not a person, its not human, its nothing right grannie? Just a heart that has been beating since the first month…….just measurable brain waves since the first month.

Newsweek states, “Life in the womb represents the next frontier for studies of human development and the early explorations of the frontier-through ultrasound, fiber-optic cameras, miniature microphones-have yielded startling discoveries. With any hype at all, the fetus can rightly be called a marvel of cognition, consciousness and sentience. Scientists have already detected sentience (self-awarness) in the second trimester.” (Begley, “Do You Hear What I Hear?” page 12)

 

[Felicity]

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/Haskellinstructional.pdf

Apparently the abortionist gives the middle finger to the baby just before she's killed, too.

The skull lodges at the internal cervical os. Usually there is not enough dilation for it to pass through. The fetus is oriented dorsum or spine up.

At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left had along the back of the fetus and `hooks' the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down). Next he slides the tip of the middle finger along the spine towards the skull while applying traction to the shoulders and lower extremities. The middle finger lifts and pushes the anterior cervical lip out of the way.

While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.
You all know what happens next....:2no4:

 

[OKgrannie]

That is because at that time we were a Christian nation until the HUMANISTS raped it. We always stood on bible principles, today we do not and look at the chaos the LEFT so defends. Homosexual marriage was unthinkable as abortion was as well. woman might have done it but no one talked about it. Woman today dont talk about it.

This country has NEVER been a Christian nation other than a majority of our citizens are Christian, that is as true today as it has ever been. Women do talk about abortion, they don't talk about it a great deal because it's a private issue. We generally don't talk about hemorrhoidectomies either.

Hell jallman, so did rape and incest but should we make them legal as well just because some people do it? .

When laws cause MORE people to die, it's time to amend the law. Anti-abortion laws don't stop abortions, but they do cause the deaths of women who seek illegal abortions.

You got that right. Nine people who imposed their immorality on an entire nation. All based on lies and more lies. A decision that places a bullseye on every unborn child that is conceived in the womb. A decision that puts a loaded gun in every womans hand..

Doughgirl, the melodrama queen!! When one has freedom to choose, one can choose to be as moral or immoral as one likes. No morality or lack of morality has been imposed upon anyone. The fact that the family next door, next town, next state, chooses to live in way that you consider immoral actually imposes NOTHING upon you.

And its not a person, its not human, its nothing right grannie? Just a heart that has been beating since the first month…….just measurable brain waves since the first month.

Why is it that right-wingers so love to describe the so-called partial-birth abortion? They are sooo enamored by the gruesomeness. And it is gruesome, like many medical procedures. But they are NOT elective abortions.

Why are some abortions delayed to late in pregnancy?

"Third-trimester abortions: Medical intervention to terminate pregnancies during the third trimester is quite rare. The Alan Guttmacher Institute estimates that 1% of all medical terminations of pregnancies are done at or after 21 weeks - (1994 data). It is sometimes done when the fetus has died in the womb. Termination of the life of a fetus is generally prohibited by medical societies' regulations after the 20th or 21st week of gestation. Exceptions do occur if required to save the life of the woman or avoid very serious, disabling health consequences. e.g.: To save the life or health of a women experiencing a deteriorating health problem. This problem can rapidly grow worse with every day in late pregnancy, and can only be reversed by terminating the pregnancy. It is most often caused by diabetes or heart disease.
A midwifery web site quotes Dr. William F. Harrison, a diplomate of the American Board of Obstetrics and Gynecology. 2 He wrote that "approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus while in the womb." About 5,000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus each year in the U.S. This is not usually discovered until late in the second trimester. A fetus with severe hydrocephalus is alive, but cannot live for long; it will never achieve consciousness.
In rare cases, the delivery of the fetus can go terribly wrong, threatening the life of the woman. "

 

[Felicity]

Why is it that right-wingers so love to describe the so-called partial-birth abortion? They are sooo enamored by the gruesomeness. And it is gruesome, like many medical procedures. But they are NOT elective abortions.
"

Oh yeah......:roll: They can do "elective for any reason" until viability...and then they have to cite some reason (maybe like "mental stress?") on the privacy protected medical records and they call that "therapeutic." Gimme a freakin' break. Why must you guys HIDE what you do if it is so right?

George Tiller MD - Wichita, Kansas - Late Abortion Care



God! this man and his work makes me ill...

Second and third trimester abortions by induction method
(22 weeks or more from last menstrual period)
Prior to inducing labor, the cervix is opened with dilators (see above) over a period of hours or days. Fetal death is accomplished with an injection of medication in the fetus. Drugs are administered which help the uterus to contract and expel the fetus. The time from the beginning of the procedure to delivery varies greatly; at Women’s Health Care Services most women deliver in 1 to 4 hours. Following delivery and removal of the placenta, intravenous medication will continue for a short time to make certain the uterus has contracted and bleeding is controlled. In rare cases where the induction method fails or cannot be used, an extraction procedure (similar to an abortion by D&E) or a hysterotomy is performed to remove the fetus. A hysterotomy is similar to a caesarean section delivery and carries the same risks.


Tell me...WHAT ailment of the woman could POSSIBLY require the death of the baby in this procedure???????