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Real Men

Does being a Real Man require more than a penis?

  • Either having a penis or behaving like a stereotypical man can qualify you as a man

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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MrWonka

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You ever noticed how toxic men like to refer to "Real Manhood?"
"Real men do this..." "Reall men do that..." "A Real man would never do x."

Real men drive trucks, real men like guns, and real men watch sports, not opera or ballet.
Real men listen to rock and roll or outlaw country they don't listen to this ***** emo bullshit.
Real men don't bake cookies or cakes, they hunt for their food. Real men grill meat, and potatoes. Everything else is just ***** rabbit food.
Real men work with their hands, and do men's chores, they save the kitchen work for women.
Real men don't let their wives dress them, and they don't wear pink, yadda yadda yadda...

Isn't it amazing how the very people who attack Transgender rights are also the very people who insist being a Man is about more than simply having a penis?
These very people have been rejecting the idea that simply having a penis is what makes you a man for centuries, and yet now that some people are taking them seriously they're freaking out about it.

Now all of a sudden some effeminate men are saying, "you know what? You're right. I'm not a real man because I don't like any of those things. I'd like to have my dick surgically removed and just embrace womanhood full steam ahead."
And all of a sudden those same toxic right-wing men are losing their ****ing minds about it.

Meanwhile, you got women out there who really do like Trucks and sports and guns and meat, but when they want to join the brotherhood they're being rejected. Suddenly now, having a penis is the only thing that matters to them.
 

Fabiusbile

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These very people have been rejecting the idea that simply having a penis is what makes you a man for centuries, and yet now that some people are taking them seriously they're freaking out about it.
Personally, I have never believed that having a penis defines masculinity and courage.
This is determined by other qualities, such as a sense of duty... not as a burden, but as an honorable responsibility. The ability to sacrifice your time, life, health... and don't expect gratitude for it.
But I agree with you on one thing, it is not necessary to have a penis for the qualities described above.
I know many worthy women whose daily feat, in everyday life and in the face of everyday difficulties, is admirable... and they don't do it because of some mercantile moments, because they don't exist, and they do it because they have to, they have a duty and the world won't see it, won't praise it, they remain unrecognized and unnamed... is it courage? Definitely. This is real masculinity.
 

grip

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Kind of limited choices but the answer seems pretty simple. A 'real man,' or any person, considers themself no better than anyone else and no less.
That leaves a lot more room for individuality.
 

mrjurrs

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Thus, soldiers who lose their penis fighting for our freedoms are not real men.

#sad
 

MrWonka

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Personally, I have never believed that having a penis defines masculinity and courage.
This is determined by other qualities, such as a sense of duty... not as a burden, but as an honorable responsibility. The ability to sacrifice your time, life, health... and don't expect gratitude for it.
So women should expect gratitude for it? Or do they just not have a duty or responsibility? Pregnancy and motherhood certainly do sacrifice your time, life, and health.
 

bongsaway

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You ever noticed how toxic men like to refer to "Real Manhood?"
"Real men do this..." "Reall men do that..." "A Real man would never do x."

Real men drive trucks, real men like guns, and real men watch sports, not opera or ballet.
Real men listen to rock and roll or outlaw country they don't listen to this ***** emo bullshit.
Real men don't bake cookies or cakes, they hunt for their food. Real men grill meat, and potatoes. Everything else is just ***** rabbit food.
Real men work with their hands, and do men's chores, they save the kitchen work for women.
Real men don't let their wives dress them, and they don't wear pink, yadda yadda yadda...

Isn't it amazing how the very people who attack Transgender rights are also the very people who insist being a Man is about more than simply having a penis?
These very people have been rejecting the idea that simply having a penis is what makes you a man for centuries, and yet now that some people are taking them seriously they're freaking out about it.

Now all of a sudden some effeminate men are saying, "you know what? You're right. I'm not a real man because I don't like any of those things. I'd like to have my dick surgically removed and just embrace womanhood full steam ahead."
And all of a sudden those same toxic right-wing men are losing their ****ing minds about it.

Meanwhile, you got women out there who really do like Trucks and sports and guns and meat, but when they want to join the brotherhood they're being rejected. Suddenly now, having a penis is the only thing that matters to them.
Where is the none of the above button?
 

Fabiusbile

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So women should expect gratitude for it?
First of all, I wasn't talking about all women... I just didn't go into details.

But answering your question... actually, no. The question of duty, as an honorable one, is not a story about gratitude. It's like decency... if you expect some kind of approval from others for your decency, then your motives are not sincere.
At the same time, there is nothing wrong if you respect someone else's courage and express it... the person will be pleased.
 

MrWonka

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First of all, I wasn't talking about all women... I just didn't go into details.

But answering your question... actually, no. The question of duty, as an honorable one, is not a story about gratitude. It's like decency... if you expect some kind of approval from others for your decency, then your motives are not sincere.
At the same time, there is nothing wrong if you respect someone else's courage and express it... the person will be pleased.
So it has nothing to do with manhood.
 

Fearandloathing

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You ever noticed how toxic men like to refer to "Real Manhood?"
"Real men do this..." "Reall men do that..." "A Real man would never do x."

Real men drive trucks, real men like guns, and real men watch sports, not opera or ballet.
Real men listen to rock and roll or outlaw country they don't listen to this ***** emo bullshit.
Real men don't bake cookies or cakes, they hunt for their food. Real men grill meat, and potatoes. Everything else is just ***** rabbit food.
Real men work with their hands, and do men's chores, they save the kitchen work for women.
Real men don't let their wives dress them, and they don't wear pink, yadda yadda yadda...

Isn't it amazing how the very people who attack Transgender rights are also the very people who insist being a Man is about more than simply having a penis?
These very people have been rejecting the idea that simply having a penis is what makes you a man for centuries, and yet now that some people are taking them seriously they're freaking out about it.

Now all of a sudden some effeminate men are saying, "you know what? You're right. I'm not a real man because I don't like any of those things. I'd like to have my dick surgically removed and just embrace womanhood full steam ahead."
And all of a sudden those same toxic right-wing men are losing their ****ing minds about it.

Meanwhile, you got women out there who really do like Trucks and sports and guns and meat, but when they want to join the brotherhood they're being rejected. Suddenly now, having a penis is the only thing that matters to them.


There is little in this universe I could care less about than what some over-weight, beer bellied, under educated, gun toting, American thinks is manhood.

One thing I CAN say, it doesn't involve lying, cheating, back stabbing, and deep hate.

It has nothing to do with what you eat or drink, how you dress or cut your hair, whether you worship Budweiser or Coors, but how you honor you fellow man.
 

CLAX1911

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You ever noticed how toxic men like to refer to "Real Manhood?"
"Real men do this..." "Reall men do that..." "A Real man would never do x."

Real men drive trucks, real men like guns, and real men watch sports, not opera or ballet.
Real men listen to rock and roll or outlaw country they don't listen to this ***** emo bullshit.
Real men don't bake cookies or cakes, they hunt for their food. Real men grill meat, and potatoes. Everything else is just ***** rabbit food.
Real men work with their hands, and do men's chores, they save the kitchen work for women.
Real men don't let their wives dress them, and they don't wear pink, yadda yadda yadda...

Isn't it amazing how the very people who attack Transgender rights are also the very people who insist being a Man is about more than simply having a penis?
These very people have been rejecting the idea that simply having a penis is what makes you a man for centuries, and yet now that some people are taking them seriously they're freaking out about it.

Now all of a sudden some effeminate men are saying, "you know what? You're right. I'm not a real man because I don't like any of those things. I'd like to have my dick surgically removed and just embrace womanhood full steam ahead."
And all of a sudden those same toxic right-wing men are losing their ****ing minds about it.

Meanwhile, you got women out there who really do like Trucks and sports and guns and meat, but when they want to join the brotherhood they're being rejected. Suddenly now, having a penis is the only thing that matters to them.
The idea that real men do something that other men don't is called an appeal to purity or colloquially a no true Scotsman fallacy.

But I don't think it's other men that are causing men to abandon stereotypically male things. It's women. Most of everything that a man is is dictated by a woman. Men want women they have to pursue women and in order to attain women they have to offer What women want.

When I accepted my sexuality and no longer pursued women a lot of things changed because I no longer cared about impressing women. It was really rather interesting. And watching straight men arrange their entire life around this goal seems a bit odd to me.

I still grill meat and work with my hands, drive trucks and so forth but because I'm in a relationship with a man the only people in our household that do household stuff are men. It's never other men that tell me this is not manly because chances are they've been single and had to do it for themselves. It's never married men.

My partner has told me several times that women ask how he can be attracted to me based on a few things that they find unattractive.

My partner is someone people would consider somewhat effeminate. I don't see it but others say that. And it took me a while to convince him that he is a real man and the people who say he's not are either afraid that their men will take on that personality by being proximity or their children will. But I have a friend group that consists of mechanics welders gun enthusiasts and all sorts of the stereotypical male types and they never made any mention or indicated that Evan my partner is not a real man. Mentionally don't care about that because they're interested in women.
 

CLAX1911

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Thus, soldiers who lose their penis fighting for our freedoms are not real men.

#sad
Well no, this is some sort of accident causes that I don't cease to be men because they had it to begin with. That's like saying docking the ears of the dog means it's not a dog anymore
 

Gatsby

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Isn't it amazing how the very people who attack Transgender rights are also the very people who insist being a Man is about more than simply having a penis?
Usually it's the transgender activists themselves who say dumb stuff like "I knew I was a girl from a young age because I liked dolls." Or the more mystical version: "I have a male body and a female mind," whatever that means. The entire movement is an incoherent mess of sexist stereotypes.

Those of us who don't see anything wrong with men liking opera see no need to treat them as deformed monsters in need of medical intervention and a society-wide pressure campaign to convince everyone that, despite outward appearances, they actually have a ladybrain. :rolleyes:
 
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MrWonka

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Usually it's the transgender activists themselves who say dumb stuff like "I knew I was a girl from a young age because I liked dolls." The entire movement is an incoherent mess of sexist stereotypes.
Why?

Why can't there simply be an imbalance between a person's outward biology and their level of testosterone?

We know for a fact that the length of a person's ring finger relative to their index finger is determined by the amount of testosterone that they received in the womb. This is true of both men and women, and it is determined after conception, but before birth.
We also know that when men and women have sex that testosterone decreases in men, and increases in women. That's why male athletes are recommended not to have sex before a sporting event, whereas women are.

So, it's possible that parents who have more sex during pregnancy could be influencing their offspring to be more masculine regardless of what their biological sex is. If this could alter something as simple as the length of the finger why couldn't it also result in differences in brain development?
Potentially those who receive higher doses of testosterone could end up developing brain characteristics that more heavily favor function over form. It's possible that at some point it could cause a girl's brain to develop in a way that more closely represents the male brain or vice versa.
 

Gatsby

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Why?
Why can't there simply be an imbalance between a person's outward biology and their level of testosterone?
There can be. But what does it have to do with being trans?
So, it's possible that parents who have more sex during pregnancy could be influencing their offspring to be more masculine regardless of what their biological sex is.
If someone has too much or too little testosterone for what's considered healthy for their biological sex, that's a much easier problem to solve than someone thinking they are the wrong sex and wanting to transition.
If this could alter something as simple as the length of the finger why couldn't it also result in differences in brain development?
Potentially those who receive higher doses of testosterone could end up developing brain characteristics that more heavily favor function over form. It's possible that at some point it could cause a girl's brain to develop in a way that more closely represents the male brain or vice versa.
There are no male brains or female brains. If your brain is inside a male body, that's a male brain. If your brain is inside a female body, that's a female brain. Brain scans can't tell men and women apart with any reliability. Even psychological tests that measure some of the stereotypes associated with one sex or the other (e.g. aggression, nurturing) have a lot of overlap and can only do slightly better than a coin flip. Maybe some day scientists will discover some innate differences between men and women that can be reliably measured. But as of now, those do not exist.
Now all of a sudden some effeminate men are saying, "you know what? You're right. I'm not a real man because I don't like any of those things. I'd like to have my dick surgically removed and just embrace womanhood full steam ahead."
And all of a sudden those same toxic right-wing men are losing their ****ing minds about it.

Meanwhile, you got women out there who really do like Trucks and sports and guns and meat, but when they want to join the brotherhood they're being rejected. Suddenly now, having a penis is the only thing that matters to them.
You are right to be angry that so many men and women are being convinced to undergo medical procedures they do not need merely because they do not conform to gender stereotypes. But your anger is completely misplaced if you aren't blaming the trans activists who are pushing this narrative.
 
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MrWonka

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The idea that real men do something that other men don't is called an appeal to purity or colloquially a no true Scotsman fallacy.

But I don't think it's other men that are causing men to abandon stereotypically male things. It's women. Most of everything that a man is is dictated by a woman. Men want women they have to pursue women and in order to attain women they have to offer What women want.

When I accepted my sexuality and no longer pursued women a lot of things changed because I no longer cared about impressing women. It was really rather interesting. And watching straight men arrange their entire life around this goal seems a bit odd to me.

I still grill meat and work with my hands, drive trucks and so forth but because I'm in a relationship with a man the only people in our household that do household stuff are men. It's never other men that tell me this is not manly
Really? That's weird because growing up as a kid I don't ever remember a girl calling me a ***** if I didn't do something manly, it was always other boys saying it.
Now that I am married to a woman, she would never make fun of me for performing duties that are classically feminine. In fact, she has commented before about how sexy it is when I clean the kitchen.
She has been very critical of the amount of meat I grill and eat, and I assure you that she would be thrilled if I was interested in going to the opera or ballet.
Throughout my life when I have played competitive sports it is almost always surrounded by other men that I am motivated to beat. There were rarely any women around at all. If anything I was probably more motivated to make my parents proud than anything.
My wife could care less whether I won at Golf or what my handicap is, yet my guy friends constantly follow each other's golf matches by tracking online scores.

It would seem like almost nothing you said is true generally. In fact, by your own logic as a gay man, it would be your desire to impress a man that is causing you to do what you do.
 

MrWonka

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There can be. But what does it have to do with being trans?
A big enough imbalance could cause a person's brain to align with an entirely different gender than their body. That's what gender dysphoria is.
If someone has too much or too little testosterone for what's considered healthy for their biological sex, that's a much easier problem to solve than someone thinking they are the wrong sex and wanting to transition.
What makes you say it's a problem? Just because they don't match doesn't mean they necessarily have too much or too little. Why can't the problem simply be that the body doesn't match the brain?
The body is far easier to manipulate than the brain. The brain is who we really are. "I think therefore I am", remember?
There are no male brains or female brains. If your brain is inside a male body, that's a male brain. If your brain is inside a female body, that's a female brain. Brain scans can't tell men and women apart with any reliability.
Then why bother calling it a female brain just because it's inside a woman's body? If there's no difference it's just a brain.

Either way, while the structure of the brain itself may not differ significantly it is entirely possible that the neurons and synapsis that form in early childhood could be heavily influenced by the hormones serving through your body at that moment in time. Once formed there may be no way to undo them.

Even psychological tests that measure some of the stereotypes associated with one sex or the other (e.g. aggression, nurturing) have a lot of overlap and can only do slightly better than a coin flip. Maybe some day scientists will discover some innate differences between men and women that can be reliably measured. But as of now, those do not exist.
The measurements don't exist, but that doesn't mean the differences don't. So if we don't really know the answer what is wrong with letting individuals decide what they are for themselves?
You are right to be angry that so many men and women are being convinced to undergo medical procedures they do not need merely because they do not conform to gender stereotypes.
I am not angry about that at all. I think it's perfectly fine. Their choice doesn't affect me. Nobody is convincing someone else to cut their dick off. They are telling us they want to.
But your anger is completely misplaced if you aren't blaming the trans activists who are pushing this narrative.
No, I'm blaming anti-trans bigots for being hypocritical and contradictory. I'm blaming you for preventing people from having the freedom to be who they want to be. I'm pointing out the stupidity of claiming biology is the only thing that matters while simultaneously judging men as inferior for not behaving like a classical man.
 

Gatsby

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A big enough imbalance could cause a person's brain to align with an entirely different gender than their body. That's what gender dysphoria is.
I'd like to see some medical evidence that high or low testosterone levels cause gender dysphoria. And if that's the case, again, it's much easier to just fix the testosterone levels to match the healthy amount for their biological sex.
What makes you say it's a problem? Just because they don't match doesn't mean they necessarily have too much or too little.
??
You are the one who brought up testosterone levels.
Why can't the problem simply be that the body doesn't match the brain?
The body is far easier to manipulate than the brain. The brain is who we really are. "I think therefore I am", remember?
The brain is part of the body. It's interesting that you bring up Descartes, because I don't understand how trans activists think the body can not match the brain, unless they believe in some sort of mystical mind-body dualism. Which is fine, but I'd prefer only naturalistic explanations inform my personal views and public policy in general.
Then why bother calling it a female brain just because it's inside a woman's body? If there's no difference it's just a brain.
Correct.
Either way, while the structure of the brain itself may not differ significantly it is entirely possible that the neurons and synapsis that form in early childhood could be heavily influenced by the hormones serving through your body at that moment in time. Once formed there may be no way to undo them.
Maybe. But without some way of reliably measuring this, there's no way to know if this is the case. Much less which specific people it applies to. Seems like a lifetime of expensive medical interventions and invasive surgery is a lot to stake on an unproven hypothesis which, even if it is true, might not even apply to a specific person.
The measurements don't exist, but that doesn't mean the differences don't. So if we don't really know the answer what is wrong with letting individuals decide what they are for themselves?
Absolutely. If you're an adult I support your right to do what you want with your body.
I am not angry about that at all. I think it's perfectly fine. Their choice doesn't affect me. Nobody is convincing someone else to cut their dick off. They are telling us they want to.
I thought your thesis of the thread was that sexist stereotypes were convincing people to cut their dicks off? Otherwise what do "real men" stereotypes have to do with anything?
No, I'm blaming anti-trans bigots for being hypocritical and contradictory. I'm blaming you for preventing people from having the freedom to be who they want to be.
You can be whatever you want to be, that's fine with me. If you want to wear a dress and tell people your pronouns are zim/zimself, that's your call. If you're an adult and you want to have some medical procedure, that's your call.
I'm pointing out the stupidity of claiming biology is the only thing that matters while simultaneously judging men as inferior for not behaving like a classical man.
That's exactly what trans activists are doing. They are telling people that there is something medically wrong with them that needs to be fixed if they don't conform to gender stereotypes.

If we instead start with the premise that there's nothing wrong with a man listening to opera, then the idea of having a "female brain" becomes a moot point. Much less the idea of trying to fix one's body to "match" that so-called female brain. You can just be...a man who likes opera. No surgery required. In fact, no changes of any kind required.
 
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HonestJoe

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My position on this kind of question is that I'll give a singular definition for the word man (or woman, as is usually the case) is as soon as I see singular definitions for words like "car", "tree" and "cat" which efficiently covers every commonly recognised example of each of them.

Pretty much all words (certainly all regular nouns) are highly contextual and can mean subtly or significantly different things in different circumstances, environments or contexts.
 

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I'd like to see some medical evidence that high or low testosterone levels cause gender dysphoria. And if that's the case, again, it's much easier to just fix the testosterone levels to match the healthy amount for their biological sex.
Wrong. As pointed out, testosterone levels at a very young age can permanently change certain physical characteristics. Your finger length for example.
Furthermore, the treatment for Dysphoria is to actually prescribe hormones. The hormones don't cause the brain to line up with the body, they cause the body to align up with the brain.
We know that things like muscles and hair can grow and shrink, but things like bones and brain synapsis can't be manipulated so easily.
You are the one who brought up testosterone levels.

The brain is part of the body. It's interesting that you bring up Descartes, because I don't understand how trans activists think the body can not match the brain
You are not required to understand it as you are not Trans. Trying to help you understand it would be roughly equivalent to helping you understand what it feels like to be opposite-handed.
, unless they believe in some sort of mystical mind-body dualism. Which is fine, but I'd prefer only naturalistic explanations inform my personal views and public policy in general.
I have already offered you one potential possibility for why this happens. While we may know for sure if this is the exact reason it is one potential reason, and given that another person's choice of gender is none of your god damn business, I'm not the one required to prove anything.
Maybe. But without some way of reliably measuring this, there's no way to know if this is the case. Much less which specific people it applies to. Seems like a lifetime of expensive medical interventions and invasive surgery is a lot to stake on an unproven hypothesis which, even if it is true, might not even apply to a specific person.
This is why it is not a choice that you should be making for someone else. If you don't believe in this stuff then don't have a sex change operation. That's all you have to not do.

I thought your thesis of the thread was that sexist stereotypes were convincing people to cut their dicks off? Otherwise what do "real men" stereotypes have to do with anything?
No, it is to point out the hypocrisy and contradictory nature of most toxic right-wing men who believe that traditional gender roles are important and who bash other men for whom they perceive to be not manly enough.

That's exactly what trans activists are doing. They are telling people that there is something medically wrong with them that needs to be fixed if they don't conform to gender stereotypes.
Blatantly false. Trans activists are fighting for people's right to decide for themselves what they are instead of having shitty right-wing asshats force them into a stereotype that does not match who they are.
If we instead start with the premise that there's nothing wrong with a man listening to opera, then the idea of having a "female brain" becomes a moot point. Much less the idea of trying to fix one's body to "match" that so-called female brain. You can just be...a man who likes opera. No surgery required. In fact, no changes of any kind required.
Men don't surgically remove their dicks just because they want to go to the Opera without being made fun of. The pure and simple fact that you believe something so stupid proves how little you grasp about the transgender community.
 

Gatsby

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Wrong. As pointed out, testosterone levels at a very young age can permanently change certain physical characteristics. Your finger length for example.

Furthermore, the treatment for Dysphoria is to actually prescribe hormones. The hormones don't cause the brain to line up with the body, they cause the body to align up with the brain.
Are there any other mental conditions where you'd want to change reality to match a person's perception, instead of the other way around?
We know that things like muscles and hair can grow and shrink, but things like bones and brain synapsis can't be manipulated so easily.
So just...don't manipulate them? Why does a man who likes opera need to change either his body or his brain?
I have already offered you one potential possibility for why this happens. While we may know for sure if this is the exact reason it is one potential reason, and given that another person's choice of gender is none of your god damn business, I'm not the one required to prove anything.
Indeed, not unless you want people to change their views. If your goal is to just vice-signal and collect likes from the usual 3-4 people, fair enough. You are free to create all the baseless, unproven theories about parents ****ing too much while pregnant and causing unusual testosterone levels which causes something-something brain synapses and then gender dysphoria, and you don't have to offer any evidence at all.

But those of us in the evidence-based world will dismiss your theories.
No, it is to point out the hypocrisy and contradictory nature of most toxic right-wing men who believe that traditional gender roles are important and who bash other men for whom they perceive to be not manly enough.
Sure, some toxic right-wing man who says "Real men don't listen to opera" is being a douche.

And some toxic left-wing they/them who says "Real men don't listen to opera, so you're actually a woman and should go on hormone treatment" is being a douche for exactly the same reasons, but is also encouraging self-harm.

Blatantly false. Trans activists are fighting for people's right to decide for themselves what they are instead of having shitty right-wing asshats force them into a stereotype that does not match who they are.
I've been interested in this topic for years and it's very rare that a "shitty right-wing asshat" thinks it should be illegal for adults to mutilate their bodies however they want. I suppose there are a few, but they have basically no institutional power. Certainly not as much as the trans activists themselves have.

Most objections to trans activism fall into three buckets:
  • Biological men invading women's spaces (e.g. playing in women's sports, housing male rapists in women's prisons, etc).
  • Involving kids in these medical experiments.
  • Demanding that normies play this game if they don't want to (e.g. telling people what pronouns to use).
All of which are perfectly reasonable objections. If you want to hack off your johnson and tell people you're a woman now, I don't care. I don't think there are very many people who do, as long as you don't do any of the three things I listed above. Live your best dickless life, if that's what floats your boat.
Men don't surgically remove their dicks just because they want to go to the Opera without being made fun of. The pure and simple fact that you believe something so stupid proves how little you grasp about the transgender community.
This was literally the entire thesis of your thread:
These very people have been rejecting the idea that simply having a penis is what makes you a man for centuries, and yet now that some people are taking them seriously they're freaking out about it.

Now all of a sudden some effeminate men are saying, "you know what? You're right. I'm not a real man because I don't like any of those things. I'd like to have my dick surgically removed and just embrace womanhood full steam ahead."
Your thesis was that toxic people were pushing sexist stereotypes, some confused people listened to them and took them seriously, and now those confused people are getting their dicks surgically removed. I agree with you. That is indeed an accurate description of what has been happening.

It's strange...you almost got there. But you couldn't quite draw the obvious conclusion that follows from your own premises in your own thread: "Hey maybe we shouldn't push sexist stereotypes about ladybrains that lead people to self-mutilation. And maybe the confused people who are self-mutilating should instead stop listening to these people and just tell them to **** off."
 
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CLAX1911

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Really? That's weird because growing up as a kid I don't ever remember a girl calling me a ***** if I didn't do something manly, it was always other boys saying it.
I didn't realize we're were talking about schoolyard things. In which case nobody there is a man they are boys.

So what are we talking about? Men or boys?

Now that I am married to a woman, she would never make fun of me for performing duties that are classically feminine. In fact, she has commented before about how sexy it is when I clean the kitchen.
anecdotes don't matter.

She has been very critical of the amount of meat I grill and eat, and I assure you that she would be thrilled if I was interested in going to the opera or ballet.
on what planet is Opera and ballet not manly?
Throughout my life when I have played competitive sports it is almost always surrounded by other men that I am motivated to beat. There were rarely any women around at all. If anything I was probably more motivated to make my parents proud than anything.
And I'm sure all of these boys (not men) we're interested in girls. How many gay men did you know that played those kind of sports?

My wife could care less whether I won at Golf or what my handicap is, yet my guy friends constantly follow each other's golf matches by tracking online scores.
anecdotes still don't matter.
It would seem like almost nothing you said is true generally. In fact, by your own logic as a gay man, it would be your desire to impress a man that is causing you to do what you do.
No generally it's my desire to live in a clean house that motivates me to clean it it's not women's work because it's work bachelors do. It doesn't take much to impress a man. Just the Right touch at the right time bam. I don't have to drive a nice car I don't have to own fancy furniture or fancy dishes or decorative nonsense. I've seen the houses of my friends in straight relationships. They always have to have a new cars. Both of my car and my partner's car is 10 years old because I can fix them and I do. I'd consider that quite manly in fact some single female friends ask me why aren't straight guys more like me. I typically tell them there are straight guys like me. They're typically already happily married. But you have to give up some things. Things that don't really matter.
 

MrWonka

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I didn't realize we're were talking about schoolyard things. In which case nobody there is a man they are boys.
I don't know if you've been listening to many Republicans lately, but they never really grew up.
So what are we talking about? Men or boys?
Republicans...so, boys I guess.

anecdotes don't matter.
I don't think I really need a scientific study to prove that's far more standard than anecdotal.
I mean, that's literally a stereotypical joke about a wife wanting her husband to go to the ballet with her and him not wanting to.
There are commercials with jokes about men finding a way to watch the football game while attending their daughter's dance recital. What women are these men trying to impress with this type of behavior?
on what planet is Opera and ballet not manly?
This one. At least if you ask the typical Republican.
And I'm sure all of these boys (not men) we're interested in girls. How many gay men did you know that played those kind of sports?
I mean, a few. Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm 40, and so are all my golf buddies. All Liberals.

anecdotes still don't matter.
Again, I doubt I need a scientific study to prove how little wives generally care about their husband's golf scores.
That's not an anecdote, that's par for the course(pun intended).
No generally it's my desire to live in a clean house that motivates me to clean it it's not women's work because it's work bachelors do. It doesn't take much to impress a man. Just the Right touch at the right time bam. I don't have to drive a nice car I don't have to own fancy furniture or fancy dishes or decorative nonsense. I've seen the houses of my friends in straight relationships. They always have to have a new cars.
Look buddy, I don't mean to be a dick, but have you considered the possibility that you're being Gay means you have abso****inglutely no clue how a hetero man actually thinks?
I'm sorry, but nothing you're saying here jives with reality at all. Guys are far more in love with cars than women are. Don't get me wrong, women want a man who can afford a decent car, but when I've bought cars in the past that I'm proud of it's generally more about making other guys I know jealous than it is about purely picking up women.

You can cry anecdotal all you want, but I'm the straight guy, not you. That's not an insult, simply that I'm more likely to understand how typical men think than you are.
 
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