Read the Iraq Study Group report (1 Viewer)

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

All right here's a link to the full report:

Read the Iraq Study Group report


Now does anyone else find the prospect of commission charged with determining the best plan for the Iraq war not having a single military veteran on it to be ridiciculous in the extreme? I mean Sandra Day OConner??? WTF??? And are we really supposed to now listen to the same realist *** holes who allowed the threat of Radical Islam to metastasis in the first place?

 

[jallman]

All right here's a link to the full report:

Read the Iraq Study Group report


Now does anyone else find the prospect of commission charged with determining the best plan for the Iraq war not having a single military veteran on it to be ridiciculous in the extreme? I mean Sandra Day OConner??? WTF??? And are we really supposed to now listen to the same realist *** holes who allowed the threat of Radical Islam to metastasis in the first place?

Yes, yes we know. If you don't like the message, just shoot the messenger. :roll:

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yes, yes we know. If you don't like the message, just shoot the messenger. :roll:

Ya when that messenger doesn't have the slightest clue what they're talking about. WTF is Sandra Day OConner doing on a commission on Iraq, and why isn't there one single military veteran who knows military strategy on the commission?

 

[oldreliable67]

Now does anyone else find the prospect of commission charged with determining the best plan for the Iraq war not having a single military veteran on it to be ridiciculous in the extreme? I mean Sandra Day OConner??? WTF???

Reading your comment, I couldn't help but be reminded of of Col Jack Ripper's comment in Dr. Strangelove:

"Clemenceau once said that war is too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 50 years ago, he may have been right...but now, war is too important to be left to the politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought...And I can no longer, sit around and allow Communist subversion, Communist corruption, and Communist infiltration of our precious bodily fluids."

...Col. Jack Ripper, commander of Burpleson AFB to Group Capt. Mandrake (Peter Sellers) in Dr. Strangelove



Reading the ISG report, I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry. All these months and a re-hashing of everything that has been in the public discussion is all that this group of supposed luminaries could come up with? What a disappointment.

 

[jallman]

Ya when that messenger doesn't have the slightest clue what they're talking about. WTF is Sandra Day OConner doing on a commission on Iraq, and why isn't there one single military veteran who knows military strategy on the commission?

I would bet you my right leg that this commission relied heavily on the input of veterans and active military personnel. What..you think they just pulled their findings out of their asses?

I also find it amusing that these people were chosen for this commission because of their ability...yet Trajan has nothing more to offer than his vague criticism on an internet forum. :rofl

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I would bet you my right leg that this commission relied heavily on the input of veterans and active military personnel.

Then why is their report not a strategy for victory? Summarazid it says talk to Iran and Syria and get out, good plan. :roll:

What..you think they just pulled their findings out of their asses?

Yep they didn't leave the green zone.

I also find it amusing that these people were chosen for this commission because of their ability,

If they were chosen for their ability then why isn't a single military veteran on the commission? Why is Baker not Powell chairmen of said committee? Why isn't Wesley Clarke on the committee? Why aren't any former chiefs of staff on the committee? Sandra Day OConner was a great SC justice but what the hell does she know about military strategy?

 

[jallman]

Then why is their report not a strategy for victory? Summarazid it says talk to Iran and Syria and get out, good plan. :roll:

Well, what is the angry little TOT's master plan? Surely, one with so much criticism would have an alternative plan of his own to put forth...

Yep they didn't leave the green zone.

And you haven't left the US. What's your point?

If they were chosen for their ability then why isn't a single military veteran on the commission? Why is Baker not Powell chairmen of said committee? Why isn't Wesley Clarke on the committee? Why aren't any former chiefs of staff on the committee? Sandra Day OConner was a great SC justice but what the hell does she know about military strategy?

Probably about as much if not more than you do. She was probably chosen because she has shown excellent judgement in the past and is known for being level headed and fair. You know, it was her job for many years to listen to all kinds of evidence and testimony and then draw a fair conclusion.

So let's approach this from another angle. What is your specific criticism of the report? I am not inclined to hear your criticism of people who have excelled far beyond your position...but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the report itself.

 

[Adrian]

Well, what is the angry little TOT's master plan?

LOL.

Why Are We In Viet Nam? by Norman Mailer.

This short read summarizes the neoconservative position quite nicely.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Well, what is the angry little TOT's master plan? Surely, one with so much criticism would have an alternative plan of his own to put forth...

Summarized it involves listening to the Generals in the field and not suits in Washington or b.s. committees that don't leave the Green Zone.

And you haven't left the US. What's your point?

But General Abizaid, Zinni, and Batiste have left both.

Probably about as much if not more than you do. She was probably chosen because she has shown excellent judgement in the past and is known for being level headed and fair. You know, it was her job for many years to listen to all kinds of evidence and testimony and then draw a fair conclusion.

Ya let's run wars by judicial committee now. :roll: It doesn't matter that she's never studied military strategy a day in her life, she was a judge so she's qualified. lmfao

So let's approach this from another angle. What is your specific criticism of the report? I am not inclined to hear your criticism of people who have excelled far beyond your position...but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the report itself.

Umm for one they want us to negotiate with Iran and Syria who are the ones behind most of the insurgency in the first place. The second is that they think we should withdrawal and leave the Iraqi's to their own devices in stark contrast to the consensus views of the Generals, it's Nixon's "Vietnamization," plan redux and it's going to be just as much a failure now as it was then except this time the enemy is going to follow us home.

 

[jallman]

Summarized it involves listening to the Generals in the field and not suits in Washington or b.s. committees that don't leave the Green Zone.

So basically, you who have never left a green zone, would listen to the Generals and other military personnel, and then make a judgement based on your findings from that input? Isn't that exactly what this panel has done?

But General Abizaid, Zinni, and Batiste have left both.

And I am quite certain that their input was taken into account.

Ya let's run wars by judicial committee now. :roll: It doesn't matter that she's never studied military strategy a day in her life, she was a judge so she's qualified. lmfao

But this isn't a judicial committee. Sandra Day OConnor just happened to have been one of our highest public officials. She is qualified to sit on a bipartisan committee or else she wouldn't be there. I still notice that she is there and you are not.

Umm for one they want us to negotiate with Iran and Syria who are the ones behind most of the insurgency in the first place.

Diplomacy was never such a dirty word before Bush came along...

The second is that they think we should withdrawal and leave the Iraqi's to their own devices in stark contrast to the consensus views of the Generals, it's Nixon's "Vietnamization," plan redux and it's going to be just as much a failure now as it was then except this time the enemy is going to follow us home.

My understanding may be a bit limited, I will readily admit that. But it is my impression that they think we should limit our combat role and focus on building the Iraqi military so it can defend itself....

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

So basically, you who have never left a green zone, would listen to the Generals and other military personnel, and then make a judgement based on your findings from that input? Isn't that exactly what this panel has done?

Obviously not since they have totally ignored the input from CENTCOM Commander General Abizaid who says that withdrawal will escalate the dissent into civil war.

And I am quite certain that their input was taken into account.

Obviously not, since all three warned against withdrawal.

But this isn't a judicial committee. Sandra Day OConnor just happened to have been one of our highest public officials. She is qualified to sit on a bipartisan committee or else she wouldn't be there. I still notice that she is there and you are not.

She is not qualified in the least to sit on a panel that is to determine the best strategy to obtain victory in a war.

Diplomacy was never such a dirty word before Bush came along...

You don't negotiate with the enemy you defeat the enemy, we have seen how far negotiation gets us with the Iranians during the hostage crisis.

My understanding may be a bit limited, I will readily admit that. But it is my impression that they think we should limit our combat role and focus on building the Iraqi military so it can defend itself....

Ya it's called "Vietnamization redux," it was a failed policy for then and it's a failed policy now. I notice that nowhere in the report is it stated how best to obtain victory in Iraq, rather it is a report on how best to obtain surrender while saving face. It's a crock.

 

[jallman]

Obviously not since they have totally ignored the input from CENTCOM Commander General Abizaid who says that withdrawal will escalate the dissent into civil war.

Just because they didn't lockstep with the good general does not mean that they ignored him...

Obviously not, since all three warned against withdrawal.

Perhaps there are other considerations...

She is not qualified in the least to sit on a panel that is to determine the best strategy to obtain victory in a war.

Obviously she is because she is on that panel and you are not.

You don't negotiate with the enemy you defeat the enemy, we have seen how far negotiation gets us with the Iranians during the hostage crisis.

Since when did negotiation not play into the ending of a war? Now I must doubt YOUR understanding of war strategy....

Ya it's called "Vietnamization redux," it was a failed policy for then and it's a failed policy now. I notice that nowhere in the report is it stated how best to obtain victory in Iraq, rather it is a report on how best to obtain surrender while saving face. It's a crock.

Is this the latest neocon catch phrase? Did you ever stop to think that maybe obtaining a surrender is our best course of action?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Just because they didn't lockstep with the good general does not mean that they ignored him...

When they ignore his main point they did ignore him.

Perhaps there are other considerations...

Ya like the best way to fail in Iraq, victory is not even on the table for this commission, it's all about failing with style. They devoted only one paragraph to the possiblity of a troop increase, and 0 paragraphs to actual military strategy, it's laughable.

Obviously she is because she is on that panel and you are not.

The entire panel is unqualified, there is not one veteran with knowledge on the Iraq ground situation or the slightest inkling of military strategy on the entire freaking panel.

Since when did negotiation not play into the ending of a war?

Umm since WW2, it's a little thing called unconditional victory, you don't negotiate with Mussolini to win a war against Hitler, it's lunacy.

Is this the latest neocon catch phrase? Did you ever stop to think that maybe obtaining a surrender is our best course of action?

Surrendering Iraq to the Islamic Fascists would be the best course of action?

 

[Billo_Really]

Did you see this TOTUS?

The Iraqi people have a democratically elected government, yet
it is not adequately advancing national reconciliation, providing
basic security, or delivering essential services. Pessimism is pervasive.

You made it sound like they were enjoying more electricity in Iraq now than before.

YOU WERE WRONG!

 

[KidRocks]

Ya when that messenger doesn't have the slightest clue what they're talking about. WTF is Sandra Day OConner doing on a commission on Iraq, and why isn't there one single military veteran who knows military strategy on the commission?

Ya right, as if you would really give a damn if there was a "military veteran" on the commission, for if there was one, you would instantly discredit and dismiss him or her as traitors and anti-Americans as you did Congressmen Murtha, that great military veteran-American strategist.

You forget, this liberal can see right through your transparent and hypocritical rant.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Ya right, as if you would really give a damn if there was a "military veteran" on the commission, for if there was one, you would instantly discredit and dismiss him or her as traitors and anti-Americans as you did Congressmen Murtha, that great military veteran-American strategist.

You forget, this liberal can see right through your transparent and hypocritical rant.

You of all people shouldn't be casting stones at anyone with the lines hypocritical and or Transparent....LOL

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Did you see this TOTUS?You made it sound like they were enjoying more electricity in Iraq now than before.

YOU WERE WRONG!

Umm no I'm not wrong, and your quote doesn't prove that in the least, the fact of the matter is that electricity is above pre-war levels, and it would be meeting demand if not for your beloved resistance blowing **** up.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Ya right, as if you would really give a damn if there was a "military veteran" on the commission, for if there was one, you would instantly discredit and dismiss him or her as traitors and anti-Americans as you did Congressmen Murtha, that great military veteran-American strategist.

lmfao, I actually meant a military veteran from Iraq who is actually versed in military strategy and the ground situation there.

You forget, this liberal can see right through your transparent and hypocritical rant.

Ya gotcha, what's your position on negotiating with Iran?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Without a doubt, there should have been a couple people on the commitee that have military experience in Iraq. When your reporting on a war zone why would you have a committee with nobody that has any involvement in Iraq or the military stratigies used. Why would you ignore the wealth of information and experience these people have in the very subject you are reporting on. Maybe they just wanted to put there opinions out there more then an accurate report. And having all like minded people on the committee would make that easier. Dunno... But it does seem strange

 

[Binary_Digit]

They devoted only one paragraph to the possiblity of a troop increase, and 0 paragraphs to actual military strategy, it's laughable.

there is not one veteran with knowledge on the Iraq ground situation or the slightest inkling of military strategy on the entire freaking panel.

We don't need a better military strategy. The military has been kicking ***. We need a better political strategy, because the current strategy of "wait until the Iraqis get it together" is getting us nowhere fast.

Since when did negotiation not play into the ending of a war?

Umm since WW2, it's a little thing called unconditional victory

I think you mean "unconditional surrender." But did you know that Japan only surrendered on the condition that Yamamoto be allowed to remain as the emperor of Japan? That was part of the surrender negotiations. Sometimes you have to put away your testicles and do what's best for all sides. If that means talking with (as opposed to threatening) Iran and Syria to try and convince them to stop helping the violence in Iraq, then so be it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

We don't need a better military strategy. The military has been kicking ***. We need a better political strategy,

Ya to bad the Baker Commisssion didn't come up with one, for example they want to negotiate with Syria who they think they can get a bunch of concessions from in return for giving Syria the Golan Heights which is a bit of a problem because A) The Golan Heights doesn't belong to the the U.S. B) Syria doesn't really give a crap about the Golan Heights it's just one of their talking points to legitimize supporting Hezbollah and Palestinian terrorists, and C) Syria isn't going to give up support for Hezbollah (which is really more controlled by Iran anyways) and stop attempting to dominate Lebanese politics in return for the Golan Heights which the Baker report suggests they will. Furthermore how in the hell do you intend to negotiate with a regime who holds the following positions:

• "With the support and power of God, we will soon experience a world without the United States."
• "If you want to have good relations with the Iranian people in the future, you should acknowledge the right and the might of the Iranian people, and you should bow and surrender to the might of the Iranian people. If you do not accept this, the Iranian people will force you to bow and surrender."
• "The battle that is going on in Palestine today is the front line of the conflict between the Islamic world and the Oppressor world. It is a battle of destiny that will determine the fate of hundreds of years of conflict in Palestine." And "Israel must be wiped off the map."
• "We must prepare ourselves to rule the world and the only way to do that is to put forth views on the basis of the Expectation of the Return [of the Twelfth Imam, whose arrival will be preceded by the apocalypse]. If we work on th@ basis, all the affairs of our nation will be streamlined."

I think you mean "unconditional surrender." But did you know that Japan only surrendered on the condition that Yamamoto be allowed to remain as the emperor of Japan? That was part of the surrender negotiations. Sometimes you have to put away your testicles and do what's best for all sides. If that means talking with (as opposed to threatening) Iran and Syria to try and convince them to stop helping the violence in Iraq, then so be it.

Oh for Christ's sakes allowing Yamamoto to retain a figure head position isn't the same thing as giving Iran and Syria influence in Iraq.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Yes, yes we know. If you don't like the message, just shoot the messenger. :roll:

The ISG's report was a unanimous bi-partisan statement outlining the grave and serious state of the American involvement in the Iraq War.

The TRUTH is that this report is a complete rejection of Bush's war policies and the failures that have brought us to this point in history.

Have you noticed that in the last 24 hours the new Sec. of Defense testified that we're not winning the war in Iraq and that from the very beginning it was mishandled due to lack of troop strength? Then a commission headed by James Baker, former Sec. of State under Bush 41 completely trashes the handling of the war and suggests very strongly that the only solution will be a political one, not a military one which means it's time to go home since we can't win by fighting...

Trajan man what is your solution if you disagree with this report?

 

[tryreading]

All right here's a link to the full report:

Read the Iraq Study Group report


Now does anyone else find the prospect of commission charged with determining the best plan for the Iraq war not having a single military veteran on it to be ridiciculous in the extreme? I mean Sandra Day OConner??? WTF??? And are we really supposed to now listen to the same realist *** holes who allowed the threat of Radical Islam to metastasis in the first place?

They have interviewed high ranking military officials, among the hundreds of other types of people consulted.

More importantly, they interviewed a military veteran and expert named Colon Powell, who actually won a war with Iraq a few years ago.

They consulted Tony Blair, a big pro-war ally. They even interviewed President Bush and the Vice President for some reason.

They had a member of the commission itself who was a previous Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Director, and who President Bush has just appointed Secretary of Defense. His name is Robert M. Gates.



How has the Iraq Study Group come up with its findings?

Over the past year, the group’s panelists have met, interviewed, or consulted with hundreds of high-ranking current and former officials, most of them in the United States or Iraq, as well as senior military officers, nongovernmental organization leaders, and academics. They have consulted foreign policy experts ranging from former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell to New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman. They have interviewed members of President Bush’s cabinet, including the president and vice president, the administration's top ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and Iraqi leaders of all sectarian stripes, including Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. Baker also reportedly met in September with Iran's UN ambassador, Javad Zarif, at his New York residence for a three-hour discussion focusing on Iraq, and members of the ISG repeatedly contacted Syria's Ambassador to the United States, Imad Moustapha. The purpose of this research, according to the USIP's website, is to provide a nonpartisan, forward-leaning assessment of the situation in Iraq and offer strategic advice to U.S. policymakers.

The Baker-Hamilton Commission (aka Iraq Study Group) - Council on Foreign Relations

 

[26 X World Champs]

Obviously not since they have totally ignored the input from CENTCOM Commander General Abizaid who says that withdrawal will escalate the dissent into civil war.

I guess you never considered that his commander in chief ORDERED him to say those words? Gee, the President would never make a military guy speak for the Administration....just ask Colin Powell about his UN speech in February 2003!

Obviously not, since all three warned against withdrawal.

Ditto the above....I think they were ordered to toe the line by their commander. When is the last time you saw an active duty General criticize the President? Hmmm..when did that last happen TOT?

You don't negotiate with the enemy you defeat the enemy,

This one statement defines everything that is wrong with Bush and his ability to deal with the world outside of the USA.

 

[Billo_Really]

There is some school of thought that if the US left Iraq, al Qaeda would no longer have a reason to be there and would be kicked out by the Iraqis themselves who are sick of people coming to their country to conduct war on their shore.