Re: The Arizona Law

[Rogue]

Re: The Arizona Law

not the same effect we've already been going after "the people" to no effect. i'm advocating trying something different to possibly get a different result.

Basically all that we have had about going after "the people" has been dog and pony shows to show to the American sheeple that "something" is being done about illegal immigration. What has really been very carefully done by the corrupt fed gov is nothing more than the absolute minimum that can be done and still say that something is being done. There has NEVER been any EFFECTIVE enforcement done designed to actually stop illegal immigration in it's tracks. Just putting another little bandaid on top of little bandaids. The scumbag empoyers of illegals must be dealt with severely but in all cases the unwanted uninvited illegal border jumpers must be dealt with just as severely because, well, they're not even citizens, they're ILLEGAL. Get it?

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The Arizona Law

Basically all that we have had about going after "the people" has been dog and pony shows to show to the American sheeple that "something" is being done about illegal immigration. What has really been very carefully done by the corrupt fed gov is nothing more than the absolute minimum that can be done and still say that something is being done. There has NEVER been any EFFECTIVE enforcement done designed to actually stop illegal immigration in it's tracks. Just putting another little bandaid on top of little bandaids. The scumbag empoyers of illegals must be dealt with severely but in all cases the unwanted uninvited illegal border jumpers must be dealt with just as severely because, well, they're not even citizens, they're ILLEGAL. Get it?

you are soooo right there rogue we have to WANT to solve the problem before it will be solved. then the solution will be an easy one.

 

[Rogue]

Re: The Arizona Law

you are soooo right there rogue we have to WANT to solve the problem before it will be solved. then the solution will be an easy one.

Well, actually the open border pro illegal alien lobby will never agree to any solution that doesn't include giving amnesty to the 20 million unwanted uninvited illegal border jumpers because they stand to profit from such an amnesty but the anti illegal immigration proponents are trying to take back America so there will never be any agreement between these two factions and thus the solution will never be an easy one, just whichever side wins.

 

[tlmorg02]

Re: The Arizona Law

Well, actually the open border pro illegal alien lobby will never agree to any solution that doesn't include giving amnesty to the 20 million unwanted uninvited illegal border jumpers because they stand to profit from such an amnesty but the anti illegal immigration proponents are trying to take back America so there will never be any agreement between these two factions and thus the solution will never be an easy one, just whichever side wins.

I am joining this debate late, but would ask why people are so offended by the Arizona law which simply allows police to ask for identification of suspected illegals? Especially as Mexico is throwing an absolute fit. Yet, all the while peoples from other Latin American countries are treated much, much worse when they enter Mexico. I say either come legally or face the consequences, case closed.

 

[Rogue]

Re: The Arizona Law

I am joining this debate late, but would ask why people are so offended by the Arizona law which simply allows police to ask for identification of suspected illegals? Especially as Mexico is throwing an absolute fit. Yet, all the while peoples from other Latin American countries are treated much, much worse when they enter Mexico. I say either come legally or face the consequences, case closed.

Well, among other things the marxist amnesty democrats in control in Washington are desperately trying to keep the hispanics riled up with the end towards a big turn out of hispanics voting democratic in Nov to try to save a few marxist amnesty democratic politician's butts. Leftist stooges and the out of state democratic supporting unions are actually behind all of the protests against the Arizona law. If you're a legal hispanic why would you worry about the law anyway? Oh yeah, it's all of those illegal relatives that the legal hispanics have living with them that makes the ethnocentric legal hispanics object to the Arizona law, right?

 

[political_signs]

Re: The Arizona Law

well if they dont like the law if its 6not already in motion... leave the sate. and go where they dont have persecution

 

[Rogue]

Re: The Arizona Law

well if they dont like the law if its 6not already in motion... leave the sate. and go where they dont have persecution

Well, the unwanted uninvited illegal future democratic voters if amnestied have been leaving Arizona en masse. A few have gone back to mexico, although mexico doesn't want them back, and most of the others have left for mexifornia.

 

[Cyberhwk]

Re: The Arizona Law

Well, among other things the marxist amnesty democrats in control in Washington are desperately trying to keep the hispanics riled up with the end towards a big turn out of hispanics voting democratic in Nov to try to save a few marxist amnesty democratic politician's butts.

Why would Dems try to rile Hispanics? Republicans are doing a PLENTY effective job of that their own.

 

[Rogue]

Re: The Arizona Law

Why would Dems try to rile Hispanics? Republicans are doing a PLENTY effective job of that their own.

Are you not up to speed to the fact that the amnesty democrats stand to lose the House back to the Republicans and maybe even the Senate? Pelosi is beside herself. In desperation to try to save a few marxist amnesty democratic politician's azzes the maobama regime has had leftist stooges and bussed in out of state union agitators lead protests against the new Arizona law to keep the hispanics riled up so there is a big hispanic turnout in Nov voting democratic, of course.

 

[Cyberhwk]

Re: The Arizona Law

Are you not up to speed to the fact that the amnesty democrats stand to lose the House back to the Republicans and maybe even the Senate?

Well in that case Democrats riling up Hispanics isn't doing a damn thing, so what are you whining about?

 

[American]

Re: The Arizona Law

no sir i'm just a lowly janitor doing a job those "lazy americans" are not willing to do. by the way i was born and raised right here in the usa as were my parents. i would argue that you sir are in some way profiting from the way the illegal immagrant problem is being handled now if you think we've been doing a good job so far. can't say anything about your credibility don't know you.

Try using capital letters to start sentences, so that your posts are easier to read.

 

[American]

Re: The Arizona Law

Right, I guess I just feel that the law would be used as an excuse to stop people and pester them, requiring that everybody who is stopped and examined takes the state to court if they feel their rights have been infringed. Which is exactly my point: conservatives should be against allocating more power to the government. That's what I find confusing and upsetting. I like having conservatives in our government to keep government expansion in check, I feel like they're really letting us down on this one. Nobody trusts liberals when it comes to protecting our freedom

Any police officer in the country can probably stop you right now for something. And how many adults run around without an ID? Do you run around in public without your driver's license? I never do. People are making stuff up, about hordes of people being stopped all over the place because of this law. Have you every been to Arizona? There are so many Mexicans and descendents, that they'd have to stop everybody. It would be a freaking nightmare for police to that. Then there's all the paperwork with each stop.

 

[Elixir]

Re: The Arizona Law

This may be a bit to simplistic of a solution. It is like saying legalize murder and the problem will go away. While I can agree that not all drugs are equal in impact to a person, to make all drugs legal would create other problems in health care, etc. Not all illegals crossing the border are working for the drug cartels.

True for the most part. Although the current beheading in Chandler has been classified as part of the illegal drug cartel and the participants are all illegals. And Chandler is considered one of your finer suburbs of Phoenix.

This whole illegal mess is just a no win situation all around. I know people are crossing for a better life, but the majority of Arizonans are just saying do it the correct way...get naturalized. Who wants all this stuff?

As far as businesses, every one that I'm aware of does the e-verify now. You can't get employment until you do your I-9 Forms and all of the other correct legal forms and everything is sent in via computer. They're getting fined big time if they knowingly hire an illegal. So I'm not sure if your state doesn't do e-verify, but we certainly do here. I've read the comments about hiring them illegally. Not sure where you're getting your information from.

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The Arizona Law

answer me this. How can some illegals pay 3-4 thousand dollars to get smuggled into the US if they are so broke? (other threads provide links that this is a true fact). I am not buying the "I got to feed my child" point.

the borders are for keeping poor people out not rich. rich people can go across borders freely. borders don't keep movie stars or oil tycoons or bill gates from having many houses in many countrys and do their work there too.

 

[Elixir]

Re: The Arizona Law

I've heard the OP's point made by several conservative radio talk show hosts. But we should remember the notion of reasonable suspicion -- there has to be a reason you are pulled over. That reason in itself provides a basis for running your registration. The Arizona law provides for a subjective definition of reasonable suspicion. It says that officers can demand to see your documentation if they suspect you may be an illegal immigrant... that's not clear enough for me. And unclear policies are bad policies in my mind.

A completely unrelated point to that one: some Republicans have recently claimed that Obama's health care bill is unconstitutional because the government will require people to make a purchase. Under this law, it requires all Americans to purchase valid identification. I don't think that's wrong, but I think that it discredits any conservative who backs the Arizona bill and argues against the health care bill's constitutionality.

Can you clarify this better? Why on earth would we purchase ID? We already have Social Security cards, Driver's License cards, Passports, birth certificates. As long as they are the legal documents and not copies, they would be valid. Purchase? Purchase what?

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The Arizona Law

Can you clarify this better? Why on earth would we purchase ID? We already have Social Security cards, Driver's License cards, Passports, birth certificates. As long as they are the legal documents and not copies, they would be valid. Purchase? Purchase what?

It's possible that one doesn't have a Social Security card, I suppose; although now I think they're issued at birth. And, in fact, we are advised against carrying our Social Security cards in our wallets. So let's say that one's out as a form of I.D. Lots of people don't have Driver's Licenses and, in fact, to get a driver's license one has to pay a fee in every state I know of. Passports? A fee. Birth Certificates? People don't carry around their birth certificates. I think every state has a State Identification Card, just for those people who don't have DL's. There's a fee for that.

 

[Elixir]

Re: The Arizona Law

legalize the drugs and that problem will go away too. when we have no illegals here dealing drugs and working here illegally the violence will subside. imo.

That's too simplistic and I can tell you're not anywhere near a border state.

Even if an illegal alien isn't involved in drugs and I don't believe a lot of them are, they tax our medical system like crazy. Have a headache? Go to the emergency room. You have no idea of any of the other problems associated with this situation. Let's take the drug situation out of it. Our schools are involved, businesses on the up-and up are involved. Like I said our medical facilities are packed to the brim with illegals sitting in the emergency room and no hospital here turns anyone away. Who eats the cost? Taxpayers.

I just moved into a Phoenix suburb about 6 weeks ago and boy did I learn all sorts of things fast.

Oh and when I got my job...you should have seen all the paperwork, background info, references, etc. I was required to provide. So anyone saying Arizona businesses are to blame, you'll have to name them for me.

 

[Elixir]

Re: The Arizona Law

It's possible that one doesn't have a Social Security card, I suppose; although now I think they're issued at birth. And, in fact, we are advised against carrying our Social Security cards in our wallets. So let's say that one's out as a form of I.D. Lots of people don't have Driver's Licenses and, in fact, to get a driver's license one has to pay a fee in every state I know of. Passports? A fee. Birth Certificates? People don't carry around their birth certificates. I think every state has a State Identification Card, just for those people who don't have DL's. There's a fee for that.

Hey MaggieD!

Yes, you're correct there are fees associated with the items you mentioned, but SS cards, birth certificates and passports are usually kept safe and when needed, you provide them. For those people who don't drive, yes, they can get an ID card of some kind to show who they are. Voter's Registration cards are free and provide an example of ID. I got the impression from Mustachio that we needed something "different" to purchase and that didn't make any sense to me when we had all of the other options available to us.

 

[molten_dragon]

Re: The Arizona Law

While I agree with the principle that the federal government is suing on, I think it is MONSTROUSLY hypocritical for the federal government to sue AZ for enforcing laws which they wrote, then refuse to enforce.

I find it extremely cowardly that the federal government for the last couple of decades is apparently fine with letting illegal immigration continue apace, but is unwilling to admit to this by changing the laws. If they want to simply remove the penalties for illegal immigration, then fine, but do it honestly (or try to rather, and see how that works).

I don't agree with letting the states deal with immigration issues on their own, but if the federal government isn't going to do it either, then at least the states dealing with it is better than nothing.

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The Arizona Law

That's too simplistic and I can tell you're not anywhere near a border state.

Even if an illegal alien isn't involved in drugs and I don't believe a lot of them are, they tax our medical system like crazy. Have a headache? Go to the emergency room. You have no idea of any of the other problems associated with this situation. Let's take the drug situation out of it. Our schools are involved, businesses on the up-and up are involved. Like I said our medical facilities are packed to the brim with illegals sitting in the emergency room and no hospital here turns anyone away. Who eats the cost? Taxpayers.

I just moved into a Phoenix suburb about 6 weeks ago and boy did I learn all sorts of things fast.

Oh and when I got my job...you should have seen all the paperwork, background info, references, etc. I was required to provide. So anyone saying Arizona businesses are to blame, you'll have to name them for me.

you say arizona businesses are not hiring them then why are they there?

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The Arizona Law

While I agree with the principle that the federal government is suing on, I think it is MONSTROUSLY hypocritical for the federal government to sue AZ for enforcing laws which they wrote, then refuse to enforce.

I find it extremely cowardly that the federal government for the last couple of decades is apparently fine with letting illegal immigration continue apace, but is unwilling to admit to this by changing the laws. If they want to simply remove the penalties for illegal immigration, then fine, but do it honestly (or try to rather, and see how that works).

I don't agree with letting the states deal with immigration issues on their own, but if the federal government isn't going to do it either, then at least the states dealing with it is better than nothing.

i agree with you and think it is also hypocritical for the government to take our taxes use them for defence (they say) and we still have 16 million illegals here. why am i the only one who sees this?

 

[Ockham]

Re: The Arizona Law

you say arizona businesses are not hiring them then why are they there?

Are the illegals still staying in arizona? I read somewhere that many were leaving... San Francisco Sentinel » Blog Archives » ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW THREATENS TO DIVIDE AMERICA WITH PANICKING HISPANIC FAMILIES FLEEING

And why leave if you don't get a job? The government takes care of you ... welfare, food stamps, family assistance programs. No citizenship proof is required that I know of, but I could be wrong. And I'm sure there are still businesses who hire illegals - that will never stop 100%.

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The Arizona Law

Are the illegals still staying in arizona? I read somewhere that many were leaving... San Francisco Sentinel » Blog Archives » ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW THREATENS TO DIVIDE AMERICA WITH PANICKING HISPANIC FAMILIES FLEEING

And why leave if you don't get a job? The government takes care of you ... welfare, food stamps, family assistance programs. No citizenship proof is required that I know of, but I could be wrong. And I'm sure there are still businesses who hire illegals - that will never stop 100%.

how about the fact that the u.s.a. spends more on "defense" than the rest of the world combined and yet it has 16 million illegals. where did all that defense money go?

 

[Elixir]

Re: The Arizona Law

you say arizona businesses are not hiring them then why are they there?

I believe it was your quote first that said that Arizona businesses were responsible for the illegals coming over. I asked you to name them because I know that those businesses that are on the up-and-up don't hire illegals.

It's tough enough to go through the normal hiring process for anyone. All the documentation you have to provide and the instant verification that occurs for some of your documents and usually within 3-5 days, the businesses have the rest of your info to see if you're properly legal.

To answer the second part, they cross over here because Arizona is ONE of the border states to enter. Illegals want a better life than they are getting in Mexico. Simple. You already know that. Unfortunately, they are not following the correct procedure in getting naturalized. And for those who do want to follow the correct procedures, I'm sure some are getting incorrect info and getting duped as we're seeing. They're paying whomever X amount of dollars to get whatever card they think is correct and they think it's a good card(s). Others knowingly aren't following what they need to do. There isn't a perfect answer.

What you're saying is that all Arizona businesses hire illegals. I've only been here several months, but I know while getting to the second interviews I could provide the correct documentation to be hired legally. I never came across any that didn't ask me for proof of the correct IDs.

I just don't know where you are getting your sources of all.

 

[Elixir]

Re: The Arizona Law

Are the illegals still staying in arizona? I read somewhere that many were leaving... San Francisco Sentinel » Blog Archives » ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW THREATENS TO DIVIDE AMERICA WITH PANICKING HISPANIC FAMILIES FLEEING

And why leave if you don't get a job? The government takes care of you ... welfare, food stamps, family assistance programs. No citizenship proof is required that I know of, but I could be wrong. And I'm sure there are still businesses who hire illegals - that will never stop 100%.[/QUOTE]

Interesting article. Haven't seen anything like it published here. I'm sure some are leaving. Would make sense.

I agree that some illegal businesses would hire illegals. Sad.