Rape & abortion

[vergiss]

Why? Because steen just told what to think?

Actually, the Bible says so. It's a commonly-held belief amongst Jews and Christians.

Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Job 33:4: "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

And the story of Ezekiel and the dry bones in Ezekial 37:1-6: "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry. And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, thou knowest." Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord." (emphasis mine)

So, Adam had a body before he had a soul. Those who die have physical bodies, but no soul. The soul comes from God, not entry of a sperm into an egg. Why give a soul to the 40 percent or so of zygotes and embryos which end up miscarried? We receive the breath of life from God into our lungs when we're born.

I mean, even in Christianity... followers are "born again", not "conceived again".

 

[Stace]

Well...as you know, steen has me on ignore because I call him on his garbage.

So...Without that "Christian" stuff...what exactly is your take on ensoulment and what tradition does it come from?

Actually, the Bible says so. It's a commonly-held belief amongst Jews and Christians.

Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Job 33:4: "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

And the story of Ezekiel and the dry bones in Ezekial 37:1-6: "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry. And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, thou knowest." Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord." (emphasis mine)

So, Adam had a body before he had a soul. Those who die have physical bodies, but no soul. The soul comes from God, not entry of a sperm into an egg. Why give a soul to the 40 percent or so of zygotes and embryos which end up miscarried? We receive the breath of life from God into our lungs when we're born.

I mean, even in Christianity... followers are "born again", not "conceived again".

What vergiss said works.....because the Bible isn't just for Christians. Jews follow at least the Old Testament of it....right vergiss? I don't want to screw this up. Although I guess for y'all it's the....Torah? Not the actual Bible that Christians use?

 

[vergiss]

What vergiss said works.....because the Bible isn't just for Christians. Jews follow at least the Old Testament of it....right vergiss? I don't want to screw this up. Although I guess for y'all it's the....Torah? Not the actual Bible that Christians use?

Tanakh. Pretty much the same thing as the OT, but different term. :smile:

 

[Stace]

Tanakh. Pretty much the same thing as the OT, but different term. :smile:

Darn, I was close. Where the hell did I get Torah from? :doh

 

[vergiss]

Darn, I was close. Where the hell did I get Torah from? :doh

The Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh. :2razz:

 

[Stace]

The Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh. :2razz:

Cool. At least I'm not a COMPLETE idiot when it comes to Judaism. I'm picking up things here and there from Caine and yourself :mrgreen:

 

[steen]

Good grief. Is felicity STILL going on about me?

 

[Felicity]

Good grief. Is felicity STILL going on about me?

Just correcting the record...it's a never-ending task w/you!

 

[doughgirl]

Steen says, "SIGH! When preemies are born, they are no longer fetuses. Why the silly strawman? The soul enters at nemeth, the first breath."

How do you know? Site the source.
So you say there is no soul.....

The Associated Press reported a study showing "babies start learning about their language to be before they are born." University of North Carolina psychology professor Dr. Anthony DeCasper was quoted as saying, "Fetuses heard, percieved, listened and learned something about the acoustic structure of American English." (Associated Press, cited in Christian Action Council's Action Line, March-April 1991.)

Newsweek states, "Life in the womb represents the next frontier for studies of human development, and the early expolrations of the frontier-through ultrasound, fiber-optic cameras, miniature micrphones-have yielded startling discoveries. with no hype at all, the fetus can rightly be called a marvel of cognition, consciousness and sentience."

This article also says that scientists have already detected sentience (self-awareness) in the second trimester.
(Begley, "Do You Hear What I Hear?" 12.)

The extraordinary capabilities and responses of preborn children have been well documented by scientific studies for years.

"By early in the second trimester the baby moves his hands to shield his eyes to bright light coming in through his mothers body. The fetus also responds to sounds in frequencies so high or low that they cannot be heard by the human adult ear." he hears loud music and may even cover his ears at loud noises from the outside world. At seventeen weeks when abortions are still commonly performed, the child experiences rapid eye movement sleep, indicating that he is not only sleeping but dreaming.
(H.B. Valman and J.F. Pearson,"What the Fetus Feels." (New Yorkelta Books, 1981)

Can we say Steen that someone capable of dreaming is incapable of thinking........and someone that is capable of thinking has no soul?

There is no doubt that later abortions kill a sentient, thinking human being. By the end of the 2nd and beginning of the 3rd trimester the brains neural circuits are as advanced as a newborns.
That abortions are defended by prochoice advocates like yourself should cause us all to ask whether your position is based on facts at all........or merly on your personal preference or wishful thinking.

I believe most who advocate abortion are in denial. I believe most of you who are pro-abortion distance yourself from information that would contradict your beliefs and actions. It is easy for us to ignore evidence to the contrary, as well as the promptings of our consciences and simply believe whatever we want to believe. You will distance yourself I am sure from the factual information I have given because YOU DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IT.

Obviously you believe life begins at birth and before this the child in the womb is nothing.

The Chinese calculate a person's age from the estimated time of conception. I think there is something to be said for that. The Chinese are stupid.

 

[doughgirl]

"In 1983 a physician was accused of murder because he killed a baby who survived his attempt to abort him. Envision this scenario as it actually happened.
Before the attempted abortion the baby was normal and healthy. Five minutes later, he had been disfigured, poisoned and burned with salt, all of which was perfectly legal. But since the child had been moved a few feet where he was before (inside his mother) he was now considered a person.

The same physician who went on to become a director of Planned Parenthood Federation of America, had full legal right to poison and kill the child moments earlier, but was now considered a murderer because he bungled his assigned task of killing inside the womb and finished the same job on the outside. He was prosecuted not for killing a child, but for doing such a poor job killing the child.

Does anyone really believe that one of these attempted killings was right and the other wrong?

Steen which child had the soul?

(Pro-Life answers to ProChoice Arguments, Randy Alcorn) p 90.

 

[vergiss]

Yeah, like that isn't a load of BS. :roll:

 

[doughgirl]

vergiss, it's so horrible eh that you can't even comment on it. Typical of pro-abortion side. And you can't comment on it because you simply do not have an explanation or answer.

 

[vergiss]

vergiss, it's so horrible eh that you can't even comment on it. Typical of pro-abortion side. And you can't comment on it because you simply do not have an explanation or answer.

ROFL.

No, it's because a credible source is necessary before I'm going to waste my time on it.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

ROFL.

No, it's because a credible source is necessary before I'm going to waste my time on it.

I guess the editors at Newsweek and the Associated Press feel they are creditable sources. I woud not call either of them Pro Life publications. In My Obi won Conobie voice Come over to the light side vergiss.

 

[Stace]

I guess the editors at Newsweek and the Associated Press feel they are creditable sources. I woud not call either of them Pro Life publications. In My Obi won Conobie voice Come over to the light side vergiss.

Where are you getting the editors of Newsweek and the AP from? They're not the ones that wrote the book cited. Even if they wrote a review for it, so what? I can guarantee that they've written reviews for pro choice books as well.


Who is Obi won Conobie? Is he Obi-Wan Kenobi's cousin? :mrgreen:

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Where are you getting the editors of Newsweek and the AP from? They're not the ones that wrote the book cited. Even if they wrote a review for it, so what? I can guarantee that they've written reviews for pro choice books as well.


Who is Obi won Conobie? Is he Obi-Wan Kenobi's cousin? :mrgreen:

Finally someone is now saying the obvious. The Editors of Newsweek and Associated press site sources that are not creditable. Although these two are creditable I guess it just depends what side of the issue you are on. Hell you guys know I can not spell. Stace you can come over to the right side any way.

 

[Stace]

Finally someone is now saying the obvious. The Editors of Newsweek and Associated press site sources that are not creditable. Although these two are creditable I guess it just depends what side of the issue you are on. Hell you guys know I can not spell. Stace you can come over to the right side any way.

I'm not saying the book itself isn't credible, but it is quite obviously biased. I think that's what Vergiss was getting at. Newsweek and the AP are perfectly credible, because for the most part, they are unbiased - they tend to report things from both sides of the issue.

Eh, I was just picking on your for the spelling, no hard feelings? Spelling is one of my pet peeves, nothing personal at all.

And I think I am on the right side, but thanks anyway.