Rape & abortion

[Caine]

Many Pro Life groups have sited this very verse as proof that the Bible did value a Baby in the womb.

Yes, it is valued, but is not of equal value to a human life. Thus, abortion is not murder.

No the Temple did not collect taxes for a baby in the womb. They are very hard to collect from. Besides they don't have pockets yet.

LOL.... The excerpt just means that children and fetuses under one month old have no value.

No they were to young to go to Temple Alot of babies died before the first month. Take a look at Numbers 3:5-16 I think this will put it in proper contex. They were assigning duties and taking a census. Today when a census is taken do they count the unborn?

Here god states that those under one month are not counted as persons. Plain and simple. You christians read into things too much.

Since I have no acess to these scrolls I can not comment on them. But the latin word Fetus means Young one or Baby????

[/quote]Ummm.. WTF does Latin have to do with Hebrew? Jews have nothing to do with Latin.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Yes, it is valued, but is not of equal value to a human life. Thus, abortion is not murder.

OK lets hope you get a chance to ask him someday.

LOL.... The excerpt just means that children and fetuses under one month old have no value.

Here god states that those under one month are not counted as persons. Plain and simple. You christians read into things too much.

They were taken a census and assigning duties. What do you want the unborn to do take out the trash? 5,000 years ago many children did not live past the first month.

Ummm.. WTF does Latin have to do with Hebrew? Jews have nothing to do with Latin.[/QUOTE]

Boy "Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body."
Did you forget what you wrote? So why did you use the latin word rather than the hebrew?

 

[Caine]

Ummm.. WTF does Latin have to do with Hebrew? Jews have nothing to do with Latin.

Boy "Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body."
Did you forget what you wrote? So why did you use the latin word rather than the hebrew? [/QUOTE]

What is Latin????
'ubar yerech imo' ? Is that latin?
Why don't you do a google search on that exact phrase.

 

[steen]

]Boy "Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.'

So the fetus is NOT a person. DUH! We have said that for many months. Glad you finally agree that the prolifers are wrong when they claim fetal personhood.

The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body."

Uhum, another thing that prolifers have denied for a long time. You are just full of delightful evidence of prolife errors tonight.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Boy "Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body."
Did you forget what you wrote? So why did you use the latin word rather than the hebrew?

What is Latin????
'ubar yerech imo' ? Is that latin?
Why don't you do a google search on that exact phrase.[/QUOTE]

I did I am not impressed apparently the Hebrew is translated to the latin word Fetus which means young one or baby. What does this mean I am no expert on jewish scrolls. I did find this.

The Noahide laws are the mitzvot (commandments) that Judaism teaches that all of humankind is morally bound to follow. Although opinions differ on the reach of these laws, all contemporary authorities agree that there are seven main laws.

These Laws can be found Genisis 9:vs 3-10 My favorite is vs 7

 

[steen]

apparently the Hebrew is translated to the latin word Fetus which means young one or baby.

Your claim is false. Evidence has been provided that your claim is false. yet, you deliberately persist in spewing that same false claim. You are now outright lying.

 

[Caine]

I did I am not impressed apparently the Hebrew is translated to the latin word Fetus which means young one or baby. What does this mean I am no expert on jewish scrolls. I did find this.

The Noahide laws are the mitzvot (commandments) that Judaism teaches that all of humankind is morally bound to follow. Although opinions differ on the reach of these laws, all contemporary authorities agree that there are seven main laws.

These Laws can be found Genisis 9:vs 3-10 My favorite is vs 7

Your right and your wrong.
Your right the the Noahide laws are those that all humankind is morally bound to follow.
Your wrong that they are the Mitzvot that Judaism teaches, Jews have 613 commandments that apply directly to them, while gentiles only need to follow the 7 noahide commandments in order to be "righteous".

And, nowhere in the 7 noahide commandments does it state that abortion is wrong.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

Your right and your wrong.
Your right the the Noahide laws are those that all humankind is morally bound to follow.
Your wrong that they are the Mitzvot that Judaism teaches, Jews have 613 commandments that apply directly to them, while gentiles only need to follow the 7 noahide commandments in order to be "righteous".

And, nowhere in the 7 noahide commandments does it state that abortion is wrong.

I said there were many commandments the 7 Noahide commandments are the main ones for "All" Humankind. Based on my own research Note I am a Christian but I love my Jewish Brothers and Sisters.
I was trying to avoid typing the Bible quotes as it would help people open their Bible. This is just a taste.
Genisis 9:vs 6-7

"6 Whoever sheds the blood of a human (note DNA proves the baby in the womb is human)by a human shall that persons blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind."
"7 And you be fruitful and multiply, aboundon the earth and multiply in it"Is it by accident these verses follow one another? HMMM I don't think so

 

[Stace]

6 Whoever sheds the blood of a human (note DNA proves the baby in the womb is human)by a human shall that persons blood be shed; for in his own image God made humankind."
"7 And you be fruitful and multiply, aboundon the earth and multiply in it"

Is it by accident these verses follow one another? HMMM I don't think so

First of all, it's a fetus while in the womb, not a baby. And the mother does shed blood during an abortion, so there you go. And yes, I know that's not the point you're trying to make, but I figured I'd go ahead and point that out.

Secondly, I was always under the impression that Christians, as a part of the New Covenant, were supposed to follow the New Testament, not the Old. So why do all of you like to pull quotes from the Old Testament?

Third, I really don't think we have a problem with multiplying. Can you imagine how overrun the world would be without abortion?

Fourth, you're not the one that wrote the Bible, so....who are you to say whether or not it was a mistake for those verses to be written like that?

 

[Saboteur]

Every Life has a purpose but here are some Bible quotes and my reasoning.

Please Define sentience Lets go to the Good Book instead of the dictionary
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5
The Lord Knew us even before we were in the womb. Sentience

"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15;
How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person? Again Sentience

"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2
The Lord recognizes the baby in the womb and helps it survive. Sentience.

"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14
Sentience Made in the image of God and being recognized as one of God's children. My definition back up by no dictionary man made but by the Word of God.

"Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5
When we abort we take a servent from the Lord.

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15
Yes The same God that form you in your mothers womb form the thousands of babies being aborted everyday.

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

I guess God is recognizing The Baby in His or Her"s Mother's womb as Sentience Why would he call?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5
Oh yes The sin that Adam and Eve commited for which we are saved by Jesus's shed blood. I guess God knows even in our Mothers womb we were charged with this sin until Jesus saved us. I guess we were sentience

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25
The Good Lord Knows the baby inside the Mothers womb is protected by the 6th commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The Bible passages were taken from abortioninfo.net the comments after are by me. I was setience in my Mothers womb and so were you? Why destroy a Baby created in the image of God.
God Bless,

Proudly Pro Life JP Freeman

I once had an out of body experience. I went to a spiritual place called 'the womb'. In the womb were many souls, they looked like silhouettes with red and blue orbs in different places in their bodies. They had a humanoid shape but not really any substance. The orbs were at the forehead, the chest, each shoulder, the stomach and the groin. I am told that these are chakra points. Anyway, I was taken into a part of 'the womb' were I was shown events that would happen in my life. No one spoke a word there except me, communication from the souls just came into my mind. I cannot remember clearly what they were trying to tell me because they became alarmed and there was some kind of rush for me to get back to my body. I was instantly being pulled down to my body I could see a cord of light attached to me. As I came through my bedroom ceiling I saw my body, my girlfriend laying next to me and a large black cloud hovering near. I entered my body and immediately sat up shivering and gasping for air. I woke my girlfriend with my sudden movement and gasping, she touched me and said that I had never felt so cold. I told her what happened and about the cloud but there was nothing where I pointed. I think the cloud was a demon that would have taken my body over.

I think I might understand your quotes a little better than you do, I don't think they mean the literal human womb.

 

[doughgirl]

Stace says, “4. Since I don't follow the Bible as a part of my faith anyhow, I really couldn't care less what it says.

5. I never once said that God was "for" abortion. I simply said that a case can be made saying that he's not 100% against it....or basically, he really doesn't care either way.”

You also made this comment, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Why say something you obviously have no idea about. If you are not a Christian and have no idea what scriptures back up your claims why make it? If you could care less what it says, why make a false statement about it?

Then present your case………backing it up with scriptures that God is not 100% against it. Show us why He could care less about it.

 

[doughgirl]

Stace said, "First of all, it's a fetus while in the womb, not a baby. And the mother does shed blood during an abortion, so there you go...."

The first is your opinion. The courts even refer to it as a child. Read the court ruling in the Scott Peterson case. He was convicted on two counts. One on his wife, the other his unborn child.
Of course there is blood after an abortion........it is very very painful.
Can you think of the pain the child goes through? Experts say that as early as eight to ten weeks after conception the unborn can feel organic pain.

"Secondly, I was always under the impression that Christians, as a part of the New Covenant, were supposed to follow the New Testament, not the Old. So why do all of you like to pull quotes from the Old Testament?"

The Old TEstament is very important to Christians. It shows us, who God the Father is, His power and gives us accounts of the men and woman of faith that God selected. It tells us that Jesus was to come. It shows us that one day judgment will come and it reassures us that God blesses those who follow him. It also is the history of the Jewish people(Hebrews) who were God's chosen nation.
Jesus shows us that we should Love God first, and then other people. This is what all the Old Testament laws tried to help people see. Loving God includes doing what he commands willingly. It means searching for him and longing to be with him and hear his voice. The Old Testament is important.


"Third, I really don't think we have a problem with multiplying. Can you imagine how overrun the world would be without abortion?"

OMG So kill innocent babies to keep the population down? Wow......
Hitler had the same idea........kill the weak, the handicapped, the sick, the retarded, the diseased..........

Would you be in favor of this............to keep the population down that is?

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

First of all, it's a fetus while in the womb, not a baby. And the mother does shed blood during an abortion, so there you go. And yes, I know that's not the point you're trying to make, but I figured I'd go ahead and point that out.

Hi Stace Hope you had a nice Christmas or December. Fetus is the latin word for baby or young one. Right now steen is having a cow, butr it is true. Secondly by the time most abortions are perfomed the baby or fetus has his or her own circulatory system, So it is the Baby's blood I am refering to. Note this blood does not have the same DNA as the Mom.

Secondly, I was always under the impression that Christians, as a part of the New Covenant, were supposed to follow the New Testament, not the Old. So why do all of you like to pull quotes from the Old Testament?

In this case I was asked to by Caine, but we still obey the 10 Commandments and most of all Jesus was Jewish. Jesus in many instances refered to the Old testament in his teachings.

Third, I really don't think we have a problem with multiplying. Can you imagine how overrun the world would be without abortion?

I disagree, right now our goverment is telling us we will not have enough people working to pay Social security benifits for this generaton.

Fourth, you're not the one that wrote the Bible, so....who are you to say whether or not it was a mistake for those verses to be written like that?

I did not say that. I said that I am sure it was no accident that those verses follow each other. I would never say the Bible made a mistake.

 

[Caine]

Stace said, "First of all, it's a fetus while in the womb, not a baby. And the mother does shed blood during an abortion, so there you go...."

The first is your opinion. The courts even refer to it as a child. Read the court ruling in the Scott Peterson case. He was convicted on two counts. One on his wife, the other his unborn child.
Of course there is blood after an abortion........it is very very painful.
Can you think of the pain the child goes through? Experts say that as early as eight to ten weeks after conception the unborn can feel organic pain.

Thats comparing apples to oranges. The Scott Peterson case has nothing to do with abortion.

The Old TEstament is very important to Christians. It shows us, who God the Father is, His power and gives us accounts of the men and woman of faith that God selected. It tells us that Jesus was to come. It shows us that one day judgment will come and it reassures us that God blesses those who follow him. It also is the history of the Jewish people(Hebrews) who were God's chosen nation.
Jesus shows us that we should Love God first, and then other people. This is what all the Old Testament laws tried to help people see. Loving God includes doing what he commands willingly. It means searching for him and longing to be with him and hear his voice. The Old Testament is important.

1. Jesus wasn't the prophecized messiah, why don't you look into it a little more.
2. If the Christians want to use the Old Testament, why don't any Christians celebrate the Passover? Why don't they observe the Sabbath on Saturdays? Why don't they observe the Kashrut Dietary Laws?
Christians pick and choose what they want to out of the Old Testament, when it suits their purpose. Thats the truth.

OMG So kill innocent babies to keep the population down? Wow......
Hitler had the same idea........kill the weak, the handicapped, the sick, the retarded, the diseased..........

Hrmm... Okay.... Lets force women to have children they don't want, so thousands upon thousands of people grow up knowing they weren't wanted and grow up with mental and emotional problems because of it, Or, even grow up in even more poverty so that they end up a bunch of friggin' thieves and steal YOUR stuff, all because a bunch of Self-Righteous christians want to punish someone for having sex.

Would you be in favor of this............to keep the population down that is?

I would be in favor of letting women choose to do what the heck they want to, and not be forced to do what YOU want them to do.
Screw anyone who thinks thier morals are more important than someone else's life.

 

[Stace]

Stace says, “4. Since I don't follow the Bible as a part of my faith anyhow, I really couldn't care less what it says.

5. I never once said that God was "for" abortion. I simply said that a case can be made saying that he's not 100% against it....or basically, he really doesn't care either way.”

You also made this comment, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Why say something you obviously have no idea about. If you are not a Christian and have no idea what scriptures back up your claims why make it? If you could care less what it says, why make a false statement about it?

Then present your case………backing it up with scriptures that God is not 100% against it. Show us why He could care less about it.

Just because I don't follow it doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. Stop assuming crap about me, ok? I don't do it to you. If you don't like what I have to say, ignore it. It's that simple. Stop attacking people and start debating them.

 

[Stace]

The first is your opinion. The courts even refer to it as a child. Read the court ruling in the Scott Peterson case. He was convicted on two counts. One on his wife, the other his unborn child.
Of course there is blood after an abortion........it is very very painful.
Can you think of the pain the child goes through? Experts say that as early as eight to ten weeks after conception the unborn can feel organic pain.

NOT just my opinion. Ask ANY medical doctor. We've already proved this point. Judges aren't medical experts, are they? The average person will typically refer to it as a baby while it is still in the womb, but most people understand that technically, it is a fetus.

And I'm pretty sure that Steen has already provided information saying that fetuses can NOT experience "pain" as early as 8-10 weeks gestation.

OMG So kill innocent babies to keep the population down? Wow......
Hitler had the same idea........kill the weak, the handicapped, the sick, the retarded, the diseased..........

Would you be in favor of this............to keep the population down that is?

Uh, we're talking about abortion, not Hitler. You obviously missed my point, and have obviously not caught on to the fact that I use a lot of sarcasm. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: If you're not sure what I meant, ASK, don't just sit there and take it at face value and then attack me.

 

[Stace]

Hi Stace Hope you had a nice Christmas or December. Fetus is the latin word for baby or young one. Right now steen is having a cow, butr it is true. Secondly by the time most abortions are perfomed the baby or fetus has his or her own circulatory system, So it is the Baby's blood I am refering to. Note this blood does not have the same DNA as the Mom.

From Wikipedia:

Fetus, in Latin, literally means "offspring". When speaking in the most literal of terms, a fetus is an organism, as yet undeveloped, in the process of becoming a functional individual of a species.

Also from Wikipedia:

The word fetus originates from the Latin fetus meaning "offspring," "act of bearing young," or "is or was filled with young".

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: fe·tus
Pronunciation: 'fE-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful -- more at FEMININE
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth

 

[tecoyah]

Informative reading:

"If only a person can be murdered, when does the fetus attain personhood? When its face becomes distinctly human, near the end of the first trimester? When the fetus becomes responsive to stimuli--again, at the end of the first trimester? When it becomes active enough to be felt as quickening, typically in the middle of the second trimester? When the lungs have reached a stage of development sufficient that the fetus might, just conceivably, be able to breathe on its own in the outside air?

The trouble with these particular developmental milestones is not just that they're arbitrary. More troubling is the fact that none of them involves uniquely human characteristics--apart from the superficial matter of facial appearance. All animals respond to stimuli and move of their own volition. Large numbers are able to breathe. But that doesn't stop us from slaughtering them by the billions. Reflexes and motion are not what make us human.

Other animals have advantages over us--in speed, strength, endurance, climbing or burrowing skills, camouflage, sight or smell or hearing, mastery of the air or water. Our one great advantage, the secret of our success, is thought--characteristically human thought. We are able to think things through, imagine events yet to occur, figure things out. That's how we invented agriculture and civilization. Thought is our blessing and our curse, and it makes us who we are.

Thinking occurs, of course, in the brain--principally in the top layers of the convoluted "gray matter" called the cerebral cortex. The roughly 100 billion neurons in the brain constitute the material basis of thought. The neurons are connected to each other, and their linkups play a major role in what we experience as thinking. But large-scale linking up of neurons doesn't begin until the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy--the sixth month.

By placing harmless electrodes on a subject's head, scientists can measure the electrical activity produced by the network of neurons inside the skull. Different kinds of mental activity show different kinds of brain waves. But brain waves with regular patterns typical of adult human brains do not appear in the fetus until about the 30th week of pregnancy--near the beginning of the third trimester. Fetuses younger than this--however alive and active they may be--lack the necessary brain architecture. They cannot yet think.

Acquiescing in the killing of any living creature, especially one that might later become a baby, is troublesome and painful. But we've rejected the extremes of "always" and "never," and this puts us--like it or not--on the slippery slope. If we are forced to choose a developmental criterion, then this is where we draw the line: when the beginning of characteristically human thinking becomes barely possible.

It is, in fact, a very conservative definition: Regular brain waves are rarely found in fetuses. More research would help… If we wanted to make the criterion still more stringent, to allow for occasional precocious fetal brain development, we might draw the line at six months. This, it so happens, is where the Supreme Court drew it in 1973--although for completely different reasons".

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

 

[steen]

6 Whoever sheds the blood of a human (note DNA proves the baby in the womb is human)

It proves the speciation, not the individuality you are trying to falsely assign the FETUS (which is not a baby, your revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding).

Your claim is false.

"7 And you be fruitful and multiply, aboundon the earth and multiply in it"

Yes, we already did that. We fulfilled that part already, That is done.

 

[steen]

You also made this comment, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Why say something you obviously have no idea about. If you are not a Christian and have no idea what scriptures back up your claims why make it? If you could care less what it says, why make a false statement about it?

Well, as I have had it explained, in the Torah, it is made clear that ensoulment happens at "Nemeth" which is "first breath." Could somebody elaborate?

 

[steen]

Stace said, "First of all, it's a fetus while in the womb, not a baby. And the mother does shed blood during an abortion, so there you go...."

The first is your opinion. The courts even refer to it as a child. Read the court ruling in the Scott Peterson case. He was convicted on two counts. One on his wife, the other his unborn child.

Could you please provide documentation for that?

Can you think of the pain the child goes through? Experts say that as early as eight to ten weeks after conception the unborn can feel organic pain.

What is 'organic pain"? because certainly the conscious ability to feel is not even PHYSICALLY possible until the end of the 26th week of pregnancy. I provided the medical, scientific evidence for that several times before, so you can't claim to have missed it.

 

[steen]

Fetus is the latin word for baby or young one. Right now steen is having a cow, butr it is true.

Well, actually, I provided EVIDENCE with documented sources that it isn't true. Providing evidence for this is not the same as "having a cow." Disagreeing with your false claim is not a sign of being bothered, morely of disliking falsehoods. If you didn't make false claims, I wouldn't have to correct you. But as long as you persist in making false claims, and then outright lying and claiming these false claims as facts, then of course I will point out that you are lying. Why shouldn't I?

Secondly by the time most abortions are perfomed the baby or fetus has his or her own circulatory system, So it is the Baby's blood I am refering to.

Ah, most abortions are done before the 8th week, while there still is an embryo. So coould you please document your claim?

Note this blood does not have the same DNA as the Mom.

Ah, but a hydatidiform mole also does not have the same DNA as "mom." So what significance does DNA hold?

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

It proves the speciation, not the individuality you are trying to falsely assign the FETUS (which is not a baby, your revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding).


"If DNA evidence can be used to prove a person was at a crime scene. Then it can be used to prove a person is in His or Her Mother's womb

Let me add you failed to mention which speciation Namely Human Why do you keep trying to beat a dead horse? BTW did you get your green card yet?

Your claim is false.

My claim is true


Yes, we already did that. We fulfilled that part already, That is done.

Not yet we have lots of room if we can stop all the ilegals from coming in steen.

 

[steen]

"If DNA evidence can be used to prove a person was at a crime scene. Then it can be used to prove a person is in His or Her Mother's womb

Nope. that weird and silly ignorant claim is not anymore real just because you keep on repeating it.

Yes, I realize this is your one-trick-pony claim to fame, which makes it doubly sad, but it still is nonsense.

Let me add you failed to mention which speciation Namely Human

"Human," yes. Homo sapiens sapiens. Not "a human," not an individual. These are two different terms and concepts and your attempt at equalizing them is floridly dishonest.

Why do you keep trying to beat a dead horse?

because you try to keep propping it up.

BTW did you get your green card yet?

Ah, more ad hominems. BTW, did you get your brain yet?

My claim is true

Nope, it remains false, you have still not proved your silly claim that DNA proves personhood.

Not yet we have lots of room if we can stop all the ilegals from coming in steen.

Really? Because you say so?

 

[Felicity]

Ah, but a hydatidiform mole also does not have the same DNA as "mom." So what significance does DNA hold?

But it does have the same DNA as Dad if it is a "complete hadatidiform mole." Two sperm in an empty egg cell = Dad's DNA run amok in Mom's womb.

Now a "partial hadatidiform mole," That's a severely deformed human with genetic problems that cause early demise of the individual. A little learnin' makes it all very clear. Check out the FYI: Hydatidiform Moles thread for correction of steen's misinformation and ommissions on this particular topic.:2wave: