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Rape & abortion

Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
DNA says it is a human being
No it doesn't, your weird, unsubstantiated, sophist, fixation none withstanding.
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I say abortion is the killing of an innocent human being. DNA proves this. And how can anyone say a baby is guilty of anything. Please stace look for comfort and peace throught the Bible. A book for Rape victims for those that have aborted, and those that have lost a baby is "I'll Hold You In Heaven " by Jack Hayford. I guess you will find what religion says in the Bible. If you can not read the Bible it is available on CD. God Bless I wish you a Merry Christmas and good Health and Happiness for the new year.

UMMMMM I'm not Stace.

But thanks for your reply and your bible should give you comfort that the fetus doesn't really die. Right?
 
Saboteur said:
UMMMMM I'm not Stace.

But thanks for your reply and your bible should give you comfort that the fetus doesn't really die. Right?

Every Life has a purpose but here are some Bible quotes and my reasoning.

Please Define sentience Lets go to the Good Book instead of the dictionary
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5
The Lord Knew us even before we were in the womb. Sentience

"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15;
How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person? Again Sentience

"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2
The Lord recognizes the baby in the womb and helps it survive. Sentience.

"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14
Sentience Made in the image of God and being recognized as one of God's children. My definition back up by no dictionary man made but by the Word of God.

"Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5
When we abort we take a servent from the Lord.

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15
Yes The same God that form you in your mothers womb form the thousands of babies being aborted everyday.

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

I guess God is recognizing The Baby in His or Her"s Mother's womb as Sentience Why would he call?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5
Oh yes The sin that Adam and Eve commited for which we are saved by Jesus's shed blood. I guess God knows even in our Mothers womb we were charged with this sin until Jesus saved us. I guess we were sentience

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25
The Good Lord Knows the baby inside the Mothers womb is protected by the 6th commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The Bible passages were taken from abortioninfo.net the comments after are by me. I was setience in my Mothers womb and so were you? Why destroy a Baby created in the image of God.
God Bless,

Proudly Pro Life JP Freeman
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Every Life has a purpose but here are some Bible quotes and my reasoning.

Please Define sentience Lets go to the Good Book instead of the dictionary
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5
The Lord Knew us even before we were in the womb. Sentience

"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15;
How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person? Again Sentience

"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2
The Lord recognizes the baby in the womb and helps it survive. Sentience.

"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14
Sentience Made in the image of God and being recognized as one of God's children. My definition back up by no dictionary man made but by the Word of God.

"Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5
When we abort we take a servent from the Lord.

"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15
Yes The same God that form you in your mothers womb form the thousands of babies being aborted everyday.

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

I guess God is recognizing The Baby in His or Her"s Mother's womb as Sentience Why would he call?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5
Oh yes The sin that Adam and Eve commited for which we are saved by Jesus's shed blood. I guess God knows even in our Mothers womb we were charged with this sin until Jesus saved us. I guess we were sentience

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25
The Good Lord Knows the baby inside the Mothers womb is protected by the 6th commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The Bible passages were taken from abortioninfo.net the comments after are by me. I was setience in my Mothers womb and so were you? Why destroy a Baby created in the image of God.
God Bless,

Proudly Pro Life JP Freeman

From what I understand, a lot of those passages are actually dealing with the prophets, and saying that God knew who would be born as his prophets before they were actually conceived....and the way I see that, God knows what's going to happen to every child conceived, including the fact that some will be aborted.
 
Stace said:
From what I understand, a lot of those passages are actually dealing with the prophets, and saying that God knew who would be born as his prophets before they were actually conceived....and the way I see that, God knows what's going to happen to every child conceived, including the fact that some will be aborted.

I am not a preacher I do read the Bible. The way I understand it we have 2 parts a physical and a spirit. Because we are flesh the devil (Satoh) can control us. If we are saved by the most prescious blood of Jesus our spirit will live. Our spirit was created before our body. Our spirit will live after our body. Right now Iam going through some hard times. My faith helps me each day. The Good Lord never condones abortion but we have free will and we know he hates sin. So like a parent loves a child He loves us. When we do wrong He is dissappointed. When we say we are sorry He forgives us. The story of the Prodicle Son comes to Mind. That is the way He loves us.

Open your mouth for the speechless, in the cause of all who are appointed to die.
Open your mouth and judge righteously and plead the cause of the poor and needy Proverbs 31:8,9
Iam only pleading a case for those who judge and sentence a baby inside the womb to death. A baby who is innocent of any crime no doubt about it.
 
The Devil? HAHAHAHAHAH!

Aww, how cute.
 
vergiss said:
The Devil? HAHAHAHAHAH!

Aww, how cute.

What would you say if I said Israel will always be worth it. Oh how cute? There is evil in the world the same evil is trying to destroy Israel. I would defend Israel right to exist with my life, Note I am Christian. Your comment did not add anything positive to the debate. Why attack someone's religious beliefs like that, are you a racist, a bigot, a Nazi? Yes the Nazi did the same thing. I think you should say your sorry. But if not I think I made my point.
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
....The Bible passages were taken from abortioninfo.net the comments after are by me.
Yes, fundies are good as dishonestly quote-mining the Bible.
I was setience in my Mothers womb and so were you?
There is not even POSSIBILITY for sentience until 3rd trimester.
Why destroy a Baby created in the image of God.
More silly hyperbole. We are not talking about babies.
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
What would you say if I said Israel will always be worth it. Oh how cute? There is evil in the world the same evil is trying to destroy Israel. I would defend Israel right to exist with my life, Note I am Christian. Your comment did not add anything positive to the debate. Why attack someone's religious beliefs like that, are you a racist, a bigot, a Nazi? Yes the Nazi did the same thing. I think you should say your sorry. But if not I think I made my point.

Your getting upset... how cute... HAHAHAHAAHAHA.

Vergiss's comment was that the devil has nothing to do with the debate on abortion. If you want to debate abortion, fine. If you want to debate GODs view on abortion, do it in the religion section, the fact is that the government should make no law respecting a certain religion's view on an issue. As Jews are okay with abortion on a case by case basis and recommend you check with your Rabbi, the rest of this christian stuff is nonsense to me.
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
I am not a preacher I do read the Bible. The way I understand it we have 2 parts a physical and a spirit. Because we are flesh the devil (Satoh) can control us. If we are saved by the most prescious blood of Jesus our spirit will live. Our spirit was created before our body. Our spirit will live after our body. Right now Iam going through some hard times. My faith helps me each day. The Good Lord never condones abortion but we have free will and we know he hates sin. So like a parent loves a child He loves us. When we do wrong He is dissappointed. When we say we are sorry He forgives us. The story of the Prodicle Son comes to Mind. That is the way He loves us.

Open your mouth for the speechless, in the cause of all who are appointed to die.
Open your mouth and judge righteously and plead the cause of the poor and needy Proverbs 31:8,9
Iam only pleading a case for those who judge and sentence a baby inside the womb to death. A baby who is innocent of any crime no doubt about it.

1. Fetuses do not immediately have a "spirit", or soul, rather. And according to the Bible, we are not considered "alive" until we have a soul.

2. Uh...not really sure what you're trying to point out with your devil thing. Or any of the rest of it, 'cause it doesn't make sense if you look at #1.

3. That's great that your faith helps you, but not everyone has the same faith, and faith does not help everyone.

4. If God hates sin so much....then I guess everyone that has never been baptized should be killed. Seeing as how every baby is born with sin, because they were conceived in sin, and that is why babies that die before being baptized go into Limbo, not to Heaven and not to Hell (if that's what you believe). Anyway, baptism is supposed to cleanse infants of this sin, so I guess those of us that haven't been baptized are screwed, huh?

5. And again.....your faith may lead you to believe certain things, but not everyone thinks that way.
 
Caine said:
Your getting upset... how cute... HAHAHAHAAHAHA.

Vergiss's comment was that the devil has nothing to do with the debate on abortion. If you want to debate abortion, fine. If you want to debate GODs view on abortion, do it in the religion section, the fact is that the government should make no law respecting a certain religion's view on an issue. As Jews are okay with abortion on a case by case basis and recommend you check with your Rabbi, the rest of this christian stuff is nonsense to me.

Wrong you guys never get it right.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It is still wrong to mock someone's religious views. What happen all these Lib's want tolerance & diversity they have a nice way of expressing it

Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukuh Or Happy Kwansa or Happy December Or Happy HolidaysI do not know what is Politcall correct so I hope I covered it all
 
Last edited:
Stace said:
1. Fetuses do not immediately have a "spirit", or soul, rather. And according to the Bible, we are not considered "alive" until we have a soul.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5

"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15;
How can He be filled with the Holy spirit if He did not have a soul?


"Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5
Even before we were born the Lord Knew and recognized me Why would he mention By name if he did not have a soul?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5
If sinful at conception You have to have a soul.


2. Uh...not really sure what you're trying to point out with your devil thing. Or any of the rest of it, 'cause it doesn't make sense if you look at #1.

3. That's great that your faith helps you, but not everyone has the same faith, and faith does not help everyone.

Just sharing what helps me

4. If God hates sin so much....then I guess everyone that has never been baptized should be killed. Seeing as how every baby is born with sin, because they were conceived in sin, and that is why babies that die before being baptized go into Limbo, not to Heaven and not to Hell (if that's what you believe). Anyway, baptism is supposed to cleanse infants of this sin, so I guess those of us that haven't been baptized are screwed, huh?

The Catholic Church has back away from the Limbo argument. Baptism does cleanse original sin and yes Baptism cleanses all sin. Mark 1 vs4. The Lord Knows I guess if I was not Baptised and I know the Lord I would get Baptised.Again I am no preacher and I should know the Bible better.

5. And again.....your faith may lead you to believe certain things, but not everyone thinks that way.

Yes and by sharing why we think the way we do it causes a better understanding of each other. I can change n o one's view on anything only the person can change his or her view on a given subject. I could just inform.
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Wrong you guys never get it right.
Oh Yeah? Go look up the Supreme Court Opinions on Roe V Wade.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
And... what does this mean to me? Are you trying to say that your religious moral values are better than my own? And that everyone in the nation should be forced by law to adhere to them? And you don't call that a serious lack of religious tolerance? Ridiculous!!!!!

It is still wrong to mock someone's religious views. What happen all these Lib's want tolerance & diversity they have a nice way of expressing it
Tell me where I mocked your religion. I did no such thing, stop making **** up.

Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukuh Or Happy Kwansa or Happy December Or Happy HolidaysI do not know what is Politcall correct so I hope I covered it all
All you had to do was say Happy Holidays. Of course, if someone feel offended by that, they are a major jackass.
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Yes and by sharing why we think the way we do it causes a better understanding of each other. I can change n o one's view on anything only the person can change his or her view on a given subject. I could just inform.
OH boy! I can inform too!!!!

Bible said:
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." -- Exodus 21:22-23 Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." -- Leviticus 27:6 The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD." -- Numbers 3:15-16 Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

And Jewish Beliefs on Abortion
Jewish Beliefs said:
The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.
Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body." 1 This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.
There is alot more information on Jewish Beliefs on abortion here....
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

So, should your Christian view on abortion be held to a higher standard than my Jewish one?
 
Stace says, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Could you give us some scriptures? Please site them.

I'll site a few I hve compiled that say the opposite.

• "Can a woman forget her infant, or be without tenderness for the child in her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." --Isaiah 49:15

• "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5

• "...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15; (How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person?)

• "This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2

• "For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14

• "Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5

• "Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15

• "But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

• "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5

• "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him." --Psalm 127:3

• "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25

God is not for abortion. Read Pslams 139.

Psalms 139 is discussing someone who is not a human being, not a soul, "unformed". The scripture's use of personal pronouns ("I" and "me") suggests that it was David, and not a mass of tissue, whom God was intimately involved with. Psalms 139 is not the only scripture dealing with the unborn, there are many that give us an idea of how God would feel about abortion. One of the most important scriptures concerning the unborn is Psalms 51:5 -- "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." David is relating his sinfullness to the very beginning of his existence and development, showing his "history" began in the womb, not at birth. Even as an embryo, morality and spirituality applied to David.

Luke 1:44 provides us with some of the strongest New Testament evidence of the personality of the fetus. The unborn John "leaped for joy" when Mary and the unborn Jesus entered the room. Clearly, the unborn John was capable of feeling emotion and acting on that feeling. Since Elizabeth was speaking under the influence of God's Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41), this incident cannot be dismissed as hyperbole. Scientifically, there is no evidence for precluding human emotion in the unborn John, since unborn children can respond to human voices and feel pain and discomfort as early as 25 weeks.
If you have ever had children of your own you know that you can communicate with the child inside the womb. I use to lay on my back and poke and rub my kids. They would move around and kick back. They felt my touch.


Read Proverbs 24:11.

"Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.

If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?'

So for you believers out there..if you think that you shouldn't be involved in the fight to end abortion you are wrong.

John 14:15 says, "If you love me you will obey what I command."



Stace.........Site the ones you have that say God is for abortion.
 
doughgirl said:
Stace says, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Could you give us some scriptures? Please site them.

I'll site a few I hve compiled that say the opposite.

• "Can a woman forget her infant, or be without tenderness for the child in her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." --Isaiah 49:15

• "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5

• "...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15; (How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person?)

• "This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2

• "For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14

• "Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5

• "Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15

• "But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

• "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5

• "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him." --Psalm 127:3

• "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25

God is not for abortion. Read Pslams 139.

Psalms 139 is discussing someone who is not a human being, not a soul, "unformed". The scripture's use of personal pronouns ("I" and "me") suggests that it was David, and not a mass of tissue, whom God was intimately involved with. Psalms 139 is not the only scripture dealing with the unborn, there are many that give us an idea of how God would feel about abortion. One of the most important scriptures concerning the unborn is Psalms 51:5 -- "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." David is relating his sinfullness to the very beginning of his existence and development, showing his "history" began in the womb, not at birth. Even as an embryo, morality and spirituality applied to David.

Luke 1:44 provides us with some of the strongest New Testament evidence of the personality of the fetus. The unborn John "leaped for joy" when Mary and the unborn Jesus entered the room. Clearly, the unborn John was capable of feeling emotion and acting on that feeling. Since Elizabeth was speaking under the influence of God's Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41), this incident cannot be dismissed as hyperbole. Scientifically, there is no evidence for precluding human emotion in the unborn John, since unborn children can respond to human voices and feel pain and discomfort as early as 25 weeks.
If you have ever had children of your own you know that you can communicate with the child inside the womb. I use to lay on my back and poke and rub my kids. They would move around and kick back. They felt my touch.


Read Proverbs 24:11.

"Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.

If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?'

So for you believers out there..if you think that you shouldn't be involved in the fight to end abortion you are wrong.

John 14:15 says, "If you love me you will obey what I command."



Stace.........Site the ones you have that say God is for abortion.

1. I was having the discussion with JP, not you.

2. Therefore, the only reason I was using the Bible is because he was; I find it easier to pull what I can from sources that the person I am conversing with will understand.

3. It's 6 a.m., and I don't feel like finding a Bible or looking up things to CITE.

4. Since I don't follow the Bible as a part of my faith anyhow, I really couldn't care less what it says.

5. I never once said that God was "for" abortion. I simply said that a case can be made saying that he's not 100% against it....or basically, he really doesn't care either way.
 
doughgirl said:
Stace says, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Could you give us some scriptures? Please site them.

I'll site a few I hve compiled that say the opposite.

• "Can a woman forget her infant, or be without tenderness for the child in her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." --Isaiah 49:15

• "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5

• "...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15; (How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person?)

• "This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2

• "For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14

• "Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5

• "Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15

• "But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

• "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5

• "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him." --Psalm 127:3

• "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25

God is not for abortion. Read Pslams 139.

Psalms 139 is discussing someone who is not a human being, not a soul, "unformed". The scripture's use of personal pronouns ("I" and "me") suggests that it was David, and not a mass of tissue, whom God was intimately involved with. Psalms 139 is not the only scripture dealing with the unborn, there are many that give us an idea of how God would feel about abortion. One of the most important scriptures concerning the unborn is Psalms 51:5 -- "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." David is relating his sinfullness to the very beginning of his existence and development, showing his "history" began in the womb, not at birth. Even as an embryo, morality and spirituality applied to David.

Luke 1:44 provides us with some of the strongest New Testament evidence of the personality of the fetus. The unborn John "leaped for joy" when Mary and the unborn Jesus entered the room. Clearly, the unborn John was capable of feeling emotion and acting on that feeling. Since Elizabeth was speaking under the influence of God's Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41), this incident cannot be dismissed as hyperbole. Scientifically, there is no evidence for precluding human emotion in the unborn John, since unborn children can respond to human voices and feel pain and discomfort as early as 25 weeks.
If you have ever had children of your own you know that you can communicate with the child inside the womb. I use to lay on my back and poke and rub my kids. They would move around and kick back. They felt my touch.


Read Proverbs 24:11.

"Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.

If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?'

So for you believers out there..if you think that you shouldn't be involved in the fight to end abortion you are wrong.

John 14:15 says, "If you love me you will obey what I command."



Stace.........Site the ones you have that say God is for abortion.

Thanks Dough Girl I have learned more God Bless.
 
doughgirl said:
Stace says, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Could you give us some scriptures? Please site them.

I'll site a few I hve compiled that say the opposite.

• "Can a woman forget her infant, or be without tenderness for the child in her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." --Isaiah 49:15

• "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5

• "...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15; (How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person?)

• "This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2

• "For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14

• "Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5

• "Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15

• "But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

• "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5

• "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him." --Psalm 127:3

• "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25

God is not for abortion. Read Pslams 139.

Psalms 139 is discussing someone who is not a human being, not a soul, "unformed". The scripture's use of personal pronouns ("I" and "me") suggests that it was David, and not a mass of tissue, whom God was intimately involved with. Psalms 139 is not the only scripture dealing with the unborn, there are many that give us an idea of how God would feel about abortion. One of the most important scriptures concerning the unborn is Psalms 51:5 -- "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." David is relating his sinfullness to the very beginning of his existence and development, showing his "history" began in the womb, not at birth. Even as an embryo, morality and spirituality applied to David.

Luke 1:44 provides us with some of the strongest New Testament evidence of the personality of the fetus. The unborn John "leaped for joy" when Mary and the unborn Jesus entered the room. Clearly, the unborn John was capable of feeling emotion and acting on that feeling. Since Elizabeth was speaking under the influence of God's Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41), this incident cannot be dismissed as hyperbole. Scientifically, there is no evidence for precluding human emotion in the unborn John, since unborn children can respond to human voices and feel pain and discomfort as early as 25 weeks.
If you have ever had children of your own you know that you can communicate with the child inside the womb. I use to lay on my back and poke and rub my kids. They would move around and kick back. They felt my touch.


Read Proverbs 24:11.

"Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter.

If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?'

So for you believers out there..if you think that you shouldn't be involved in the fight to end abortion you are wrong.

John 14:15 says, "If you love me you will obey what I command."



Stace.........Site the ones you have that say God is for abortion.

Thanks Dough Girl I have learned more God Bless.
 
doughgirl said:
Stace says, "According to the Bible, though, life does not begin until you have a soul. And fetuses do not yet have souls."

Could you give us some scriptures? Please site them.

I'll site a few I hve compiled that say the opposite.....
Ah, more Biblical quote-mining.

That aside, if you are so hip on establishing abortion as a Christian issue, I guess you just sunk the ability for any legislation against abortion (You know, imposing your religion on others... un-COnstitutional kind of stuff).
 
steen said:
Ah, more Biblical quote-mining.

That aside, if you are so hip on establishing abortion as a Christian issue, I guess you just sunk the ability for any legislation against abortion (You know, imposing your religion on others... un-COnstitutional kind of stuff).

Don't blame the Christians

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
 
Proudly Pro Life JP Freem said:
Don't blame the Christians
Just the fundies who seek to impose themselves in other people's lives and blasphemously quote-mine the Bible for their own political goal of oppression of women.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
Words from a legally irrelevant piece of text. So what?
 
Caine said:
OH boy! I can inform too!!

Originally Posted by Bible
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." -- Exodus 21:22-
23 Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

Many Pro Life groups have sited this very verse as proof that the Bible did value a Baby in the womb.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." -- Leviticus 27:6

No the Temple did not collect taxes for a baby in the womb. They are very hard to collect from. Besides they don't have pockets yet.

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD." -- Numbers 3:15-16 Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

No they were to young to go to Temple Alot of babies died before the first month. Take a look at Numbers 3:5-16 I think this will put it in proper contex. They were assigning duties and taking a census. Today when a census is taken do they count the unborn?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co.../abortion.html

And Jewish Beliefs on Abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Beliefs
The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.
Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body." 1 This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person

Since I have no acess to these scrolls I can not comment on them. But the latin word Fetus means Young one or Baby????
 
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