Ramifications of Fetal Personhood

[CoffeeSaint]

What would happen if an unborn fetus (and please, let's try to avoid the usual semantic argument over the proper term for the child/ZEF/whatever) was recognized as a legal person, with full rights and protections under our laws?

Obviously, abortion would become illegal as it would be the killing of a person with the right to life. Let's just assume that for the sake of this thread, please.

But what else would happen?


Would it affect insurance?
Would it become necessary to limit a pregnant woman's behavior further than we limit it at present?
Would there need to be investigations into miscarriages?

One thought I had: if the fetus was seen as a full person, it would become impossible to imprison a pregnant woman, as the fetus could not legally be imprisoned along with her. Is this correct?

Your thoughts, please.

 

[tecoyah]

What would happen if an unborn fetus (and please, let's try to avoid the usual semantic argument over the proper term for the child/ZEF/whatever) was recognized as a legal person, with full rights and protections under our laws?

Obviously, abortion would become illegal as it would be the killing of a person with the right to life. Let's just assume that for the sake of this thread, please.

But what else would happen?


Would it affect insurance?
Would it become necessary to limit a pregnant woman's behavior further than we limit it at present?
Would there need to be investigations into miscarriages?

One thought I had: if the fetus was seen as a full person, it would become impossible to imprison a pregnant woman, as the fetus could not legally be imprisoned along with her. Is this correct?

Your thoughts, please.

The implications for personal freedoms of American Citizens, Based on undefined Personhood would be devastating to what it actually means to live in America. What we now see as Civil Rights would be called into question for half the polulation (females), based on the given rights of an unborn entity. Sex would eventually need to be legislated as well, due to the likelyhood of creating an individual citizen, and the rights inherent in that title.
I am already quite pleased I am male, as I dont bleed once a month, nor do I suffer the second class status many women must bear....but Damn...this would make it all seem like nothing in comparison.

 

[ngdawg]

On the plus side, that income tax deduction for dependents could be taken 9 months earlier....
would induced labor then be disallowed because this person isn't ready yet?
would miscarrages all be investigated to eliminate criminal charges(or impliment them)?
who gets custody in a divorce if the person isn't born yet?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

What about pregnancies that threaten the mother. Abortion is illegal and there are no laws on the books that I know of that allow the killing of a US citizens that is guilty of nothing for the good of another.

Not to mention you would see a huge increase in population and in the poverty level, crime, unemployment etc etc....

 

[Purple]

If a "Conception Certificate" were issued at the point when pregnancy could be confirmed then all pregnant women would have to be monitored. Maybe a nice belly strap that sent fetal heartrate back to a central computer.
That way if the heartbeat faltered or stopped the Pregnancy Swat Team could be sent out to investigate.

Imprisonment would be interesting. It would be against the rights of the fetus to imprison it. So there would be no jail time for a pregnant women.

 

[1069]

This is pretty much what I was trying to get at with my "If abortion is murder, then is miscarriage Involuntary Manslaughter" thread.
Unfortunately, it went weirdly awry and wasn't very productive.
Hopefully this one will work out a little better.
I'm interested in reading people's thoughts on the issue.

 

[Light]

If a "Conception Certificate" were issued at the point when pregnancy could be confirmed then all pregnant women would have to be monitored. Maybe a nice belly strap that sent fetal heartrate back to a central computer.
That way if the heartbeat faltered or stopped the Pregnancy Swat Team could be sent out to investigate.

Imprisonment would be interesting. It would be against the rights of the fetus to imprison it. So there would be no jail time for a pregnant women.

has anyone thought of what a miscarriage would be? would that be homiside on the mothers part? suicide on the fetus part? And if a miscarriage occured then would you need a death certificate and a funeral, obit? those could be expensive!

and what would happen if the woman got in a car accident, and it was her fault, and the fetus was killed? would she be tried for murder? i dont know if that happens already or not, but if someone could help me out with this point itd be appreciated.

 

[1069]

has anyone thought of what a miscarriage would be?

Yes. I have.
Extensively.

link

 

[AYFR]

Well in some ways the fetus is recognized as a legal person.
If it wasn't then how could someone go to jail for murdering one

Man in Bisbee found guilty of killing woman and her fetus | www.azstarnet.com ®
California Man Found Guilty of Double Murder Under Unborn Victims Law
FOXNews.com - Peterson Found Guilty of Murdering Wife, Unborn Son - U.S. & World

It all has to do with Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

Unborn Victims of Violence Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Well in some ways the fetus is recognized as a legal person.
If it wasn't then how could someone go to jail for murdering one

Man in Bisbee found guilty of killing woman and her fetus | www.azstarnet.com ®
California Man Found Guilty of Double Murder Under Unborn Victims Law
FOXNews.com - Peterson Found Guilty of Murdering Wife, Unborn Son - U.S. & World

It all has to do with Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

Unborn Victims of Violence Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll say it again, here: those are bad convictions. The law is acceptable because it does not mandate that the crime against the fetus be labeled as murder or assault, which it isn't, and it doesn't state that the fetus is a person with rights, which it isn't, but Scott Peterson, for one, never should have been convicted of two murders; he didn't commit two murders. Personally I think he shouldn't have been convicted of one; I thought the evidence far too circumstantial to eliminate all reasonable doubt. But then, I wasn't on the jury, so I'm sure there are things I don't know.

I do know, however, that convicting a man of murder for killing a fetus is wrong, according to our laws. It was almost certainly done in these cases for shock value, to make the crimes seem as heinous as possible in order to sway the jury; but these are not good legal precedents, IMO.


At any rate, IF fetuses were declared persons, it would make any crime against the fetus assault or murder; are there any further ramifications of that that we should consider? Any circumstances that would lead to an unfair conviction? Or would this be a positive step, in the relevant cases?

 

[brewmenn]

One thought I had: if the fetus was seen as a full person, it would become impossible to imprison a pregnant woman, as the fetus could not legally be imprisoned along with her. Is this correct?

No, that is not correct. As long as the woman is receiving proper medical care the baby shes carrying would not be effected by it's mothers imprisonment, in fact it may be better off.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

No, that is not correct. As long as the woman is receiving proper medical care the baby shes carrying would not be effected by it's mothers imprisonment, in fact it may be better off.

It's not a question of the fetus being happy while in prison. I was under the impression that you simply could not lock up an innocent person, and the fetus would be that. So you'd either have to release the mother, or separate the two -- sort of like the Siamese twin riddle.

Or would the fetus be an accessory to the crime? It was a person present at the crime scene . . .

 

[brewmenn]

It's not a question of the fetus being happy while in prison. I was under the impression that you simply could not lock up an innocent person, and the fetus would be that. So you'd either have to release the mother, or separate the two -- sort of like the Siamese twin riddle.

Or would the fetus be an accessory to the crime? It was a person present at the crime scene . . .

No, the fetus would be the same place the fetus would have been otherwise, in it's mothers womb.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

No, the fetus would be the same place the fetus would have been otherwise, in it's mothers womb.

. . . . in a prison cell, having committed no crime. The whole point here is that this is an impossible situation, and a problem that would have to be dealt with if we were to grant fetal personhood. If you don't agree that it is a problem, explain to me how an innocent person can be locked up for having committed no crime -- and since we are talking about an individual, independent person with his/her own rights and freedoms, his or her relationship to the mother is totally irrelevant.

 

[brewmenn]

. . . . in a prison cell, having committed no crime. The whole point here is that this is an impossible situation, and a problem that would have to be dealt with if we were to grant fetal personhood. If you don't agree that it is a problem, explain to me how an innocent person can be locked up for having committed no crime -- and since we are talking about an individual, independent person with his/her own rights and freedoms, his or her relationship to the mother is totally irrelevant.

Go head and type the same argument as many time as you want, I still don't agree with it.

 

[1069]

No, that is not correct. As long as the woman is receiving proper medical care the baby shes carrying would not be effected by it's mothers imprisonment, in fact it may be better off.

I don't think it's legal to imprison innocent "persons" simply because we feel they'd be 'safer" or "better off" in prison.
If they've committed no crime, we can't imprison them. Period.

It sounds like what you're really talking about here is not that fetuses should have legal status as "persons" (which would be kind of ridiculous, all things considered), but rather that pregnant females should have non-human status for the duration of their pregnancies (ie, should be imprisoned for attempting to defend themselves against an organism which is inhabiting their bodies without their consent, and subsisting by extracting their bodily resources against their will).
That's what these "fetal personhood" arguments always boil down to.
Persons do not inhabit the bodies of other persons.
At best, a person might be held by another person against his/her will, in which case that would be illegal, and he or she would have the right to be freed, and walk away.
But when you "free" a fetus, it can't walk away. It dies, because it is unsuited to life outside the body of its host.
No person, organism, or entity has the right, however, to inhabit another person's body for any length of time, regardless of whether or not they need to do so in order to live.
What you want is not to give fetuses human status (which, in truth, would only entitle them to be released from the womb, immediately).
What you want is for women to lose their human status, and be reclassified as domestic animals, brood sows, slaves, ambulatory incubators.
Forget it, it ain't happening.

 

[brewmenn]

So I assume you're against programs like this :BABIES BEHIND BARS / With California inmates expected to give birth to more than 300 babies this year, officials are preparing to open the state's first prison nursery
that would allow a woman who gives birth while in prison to care for their child in prison for a while after it's born.

and I assume that if a person committed a crime while holding a child that you'd consider the child to be an accessory to the crime.

Just to give you a new subject to ramble on about, how about immigrants? Would it mean that it's not where a kid it born that matters, but where it's conceived? That might not be such a bad thing, at least then we wouldn't have to consider a baby to be an American just because it's mother managed to get to American soil before having the kid.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Go head and type the same argument as many time as you want, I still don't agree with it.

I'm not waiting for you to agree with it, I'm waiting for you to disprove it. IF you can't, then your disagreement is duly noted, and duly ignored.

So I assume you're against programs like this :BABIES BEHIND BARS / With California inmates expected to give birth to more than 300 babies this year, officials are preparing to open the state's first prison nursery
that would allow a woman who gives birth while in prison to care for their child in prison for a while after it's born.

No, since I am not in favor of fetal personhood, I'd be for programs like this. But if fetuses were persons, then these programs, and the incarceration of any pregnant woman, would be illegal.

and I assume that if a person committed a crime while holding a child that you'd consider the child to be an accessory to the crime.

No, I wouldn't. The remark was facetious.

Just to give you a new subject to ramble on about, how about immigrants? Would it mean that it's not where a kid it born that matters, but where it's conceived? That might not be such a bad thing, at least then we wouldn't have to consider a baby to be an American just because it's mother managed to get to American soil before having the kid.

That's an interesting point; you're right. It would have to change to where a person was conceived. I wonder how you'd go about proving that? If newlyweds took a honeymoon to Cancun, would any child conceived there be a Mexican citizen? Would he therefore be ineligible to serve as President of the US?

I'm not sure that it would help with the immigration question; after all, all a woman would have to do is sneak across the border and have sex. If she got pregnant, her child would be an American citizen, and she'd be permitted to move here -- wouldn't she? Just imagine how easy it would be to get laid at the border!

 

[Jerry]

What would happen if an unborn fetus (and please, let's try to avoid the usual semantic argument over the proper term for the child/ZEF/whatever) was recognized as a legal person, with full rights and protections under our laws?

Obviously, abortion would become illegal as it would be the killing of a person with the right to life. Let's just assume that for the sake of this thread, please.

But what else would happen?


Would it affect insurance?
Would it become necessary to limit a pregnant woman's behavior further than we limit it at present?
Would there need to be investigations into miscarriages?

One thought I had: if the fetus was seen as a full person, it would become impossible to imprison a pregnant woman, as the fetus could not legally be imprisoned along with her. Is this correct?

Your thoughts, please.

ROE v. WADE, Section 9a:

"A. The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a "person" within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, [410 U.S. 113, 157] for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment. The appellant conceded as much on reargument. 51 On the other hand, the appellee conceded on reargument 52 that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment."

Where would you like to begin:

Roe-V-Wade is revisited and SCOTUS declares that abortion is regulatable per each State;

Roe-v-Wade is revisited and SCOTUS declares "personhood" is established prenataly from the 24th. week on;

Roe-v-Wade is revisited and SCOTUS declares "personhood" is established prenataly from the 12th. week on;

Roe-v-Wade is revisited and SCOTUS declares "personhood" is established prenataly from conception on?

 

[Jerry]

On the plus side, that income tax deduction for dependents could be taken 9 months earlier....

Damn right!!

would induced labor then be disallowed because this person isn't ready yet?

I doubt that an abortion ban would bar induced labor on a viable ZEF.

would miscarrages all be investigated to eliminate criminal charges(or impliment them)?

Of coarse not.
A miscarriage is, by definition, not under anyone's control.

A do-it-yourself abortion, however, might be investigated.

who gets custody in a divorce if the person isn't born yet?

The pregnant woman gets full physical and joint legal custody if she divorces her wife before the ZEF is born.

 

[Jerry]

What about pregnancies that threaten the mother.

Abortion is illegal and there are no laws on the books that I know of that allow the killing of a US citizens that is guilty of nothing for the good of another.

Justifiable Homicide

Not to mention you would see a huge increase in population and in the poverty level, crime, unemployment etc etc....

All the more reason to enforce mandatory abortions, sterilizations and 1 child laws (seeing as how were well headed down the above mentioned road with abortion being legal now).....just like our good buddies in China, yeah, we want to be exactly like them....

...or we could just stop making unwanted children in the first place.....naahh, that would require self control, something which got passed up for sex-ed and Riddlin in the schools.

Besides, barring people from over populating the planet and creating a Malthusian catastrophe would violate their civil rights, would it not, and we don't want to do that.

We humans have the right to kill ourselves, be it child by child or mass over population, and anyone who stands in our way is an Anti-Choice religious zealot.

We have the right to die!
:mrgreen:
:spin:
:lol:
:2wave:

 

[Jerry]

If a "Conception Certificate" were issued at the point when pregnancy could be confirmed then all pregnant women would have to be monitored. Maybe a nice belly strap that sent fetal heartrate back to a central computer.
That way if the heartbeat faltered or stopped the Pregnancy Swat Team could be sent out to investigate.

Imprisonment would be interesting. It would be against the rights of the fetus to imprison it. So there would be no jail time for a pregnant women.

Don't pregnant women currently go to prison?

Why yes they do...

California Coalition for Women Prisoners: The Fire Inside: To pregnant women in prison

..it would seem that prison has little if any bearing on a ZEF's "personhood".

 

[Jerry]

Oooohhhhh...look what ells I found from that same source:

It's Your Health

<snip>

The state has long had legislation requiring the CDC to allow pregnant women to live in community-based facilities before giving birth, and for up to 6 years afterwards with their child. But the Department has made it really hard to qualify for these programs, and the state has provided little funding. There are now only 3 Community Prisoner Mother Programs (CPMPs in Oakland, Pomona, and Bakersfield), also known as the Mother-Infant Program—down from 7—where women can live with their babies. A lot of “experts” have studied programs similar to the CPMPs in other states (New York, Washington, Nebraska) and reported that not only are babies and moms healthier, but they also result in less recidivism for women and better lives for their children.

 

[Jerry]

has anyone thought of what a miscarriage would be?

Sure have...a misscarrage would be a tradgedy.

would that be homiside on the mothers part?

....nope.....

suicide on the fetus part?

Yo mama so ugly you killed yo-self befo yo wuz bone!

And if a miscarriage occured then would you need a death certificate and a funeral, obit? those could be expensive!

Actually, you may.
My 6th was a miscarriage, and my wife an I were told that, though we had the option to claim the fetus, it would have been mandatory for us to claim the fetus had it been 24 weeks along when it miscarried.

We would have been required to "dispose" of it no different than another body (in the river with cement shoes :mrgreen.

We were also issued a death certificate which is sitting in a file at my feet at this very moment.

and what would happen if the woman got in a car accident, and it was her fault, and the fetus was killed?

That could be some form of Homicide...

would she be tried for murder?

"Murder" is a spicific thing.

IMO a car accident would likely be some form of Homicide.

i dont know if that happens already or not, but if someone could help me out with this point itd be appreciated.

Add this to your Favorites list:
law.com Law Dictionary

...now you can search terms like "Murder", "Homicide"......even "person" for that matter....

 

[Jerry]

has anyone thought of what a miscarriage would be?

Yes. I have.
Extensively.

link

Yup, we got that question answered....

Mansloughter is not a biological function.
Miscarage is not a crime.

The 2 can not be compaired.

Legal Definition of Involuntary Manslaughter

So miscarriage cannot be classified as involuntary manslaughter, I was wrong.

If a miscarriage is murder, then a heart attack is suicide.

Miscarriage is a natural function of the Human Body, reacting to a failed pregancy (or creating one). It has no similarity to a manslaughter charge , if only because no "accidental" action has taken place by the mother,thus she is not in control nor responsible for the result.

On topic, miscarriage is not comparable to voluntary abortion. That's just plain silly.