Racists?

[Mr Person]

I agree it's not true, but lots of people say it.

At the core of critical race theory is the idea that all white people participate in and benefit from a system that oppresses minorities. Another of CRT's ideas is that racial bigotry and prejudice are not racism, but the only true racism is the institutionalized version of racism that permeates society, for the benefit of all whites and to the detriment of all non-whites. That's how all whites can be racists, regardless of any personal prejudice or lack thereof.

I personally think this is a lot of nonsense that could do great harm to our society without helping minorities at all. But these ideas have a fair bit of traction these days.

How can these ideas "do great harm to our society without helping minorities at all"?

 

[AGENT J]

I benefit from and participate in a system that involves massive exploitation and sweatshops, doesnt make me evil, just is what it is.

exactly, you can be labeled racist for something you didn't create for that purpose and are not actively participating in also for that purpose and you have no real power to stop it.

claiming otherwise is idiotic.

 

[bomberfox]

That doesn't make sense. How do you decide what a person is? And how we look is part of who we are -- it shows how a person takes care of themself, or doesn't. And do you judge people by their intelligence? It is partly inborn and not really someone's fault if they are less intelligent. What about personality? A lot of that is inborn.

And even if you could somehow decide what a person really is, there can never be equality for all. What would that mean? No differences between people?

Equal rights and equal citizenship for all Americans. We dont all have the same abilities, even Marx critiqued that idea in his critique of the gotha program.

 

[AGENT J]

This is all you need to know:
All white people are racists
All institutions are racists.
Once we can come to grips with these facts, we can stop calling each other racists.

not facts

 

[bomberfox]

exactly, you can be labeled racist for something you didn't create for that purpose and are not actively participating in also for that purpose and you have no real power to stop it.

claiming otherwise is idiotic.

Well racism can involve unconscious biases and the like. Doesnt make you an evil person but we grow up in a society that teaches us to assume black people probably deserved it when they are shot by a cop or a muslim person must be a terrorist if they kill someone but if a white kid shoots up a school we get all “he must be mentally ill” or we get all reflecty on society.

 

[AGENT J]

Well racism can involve unconscious biases and the like. Doesnt make you an evil person but we grow up in a society that teaches us to assume black people probably deserved it when they are shot by a cop or a muslim person must be a terrorist if they kill someone but if a white kid shoots up a school we get all “he must be mentally ill” or we get all reflecty on society.

100% true

but that doesn't in any way justify labeling every white person an actual racist or every white person living in a racist system racist

 

[bomberfox]

100% true

but that doesn't in any way justify labeling every white person an actual racist or every white person living in a racist system racist

Sure.

 

[AGENT J]

Sure.

of course sure because we cant just ignore facts and definitions based on feelings and philosophy. It would be insanity to label them all racist based on those things

 

[vanceen]

How can these ideas "do great harm to our society without helping minorities at all"?

Just a few ways.

All the "critical theories" are built on postmodernist, deconstructionist philosophy. In general, it minimizes the importance of objectivity, and rejects logic and science as just more parts of the dominant culture. Intellectually, all of that stuff is sawing off the limb you're sitting on. The consequences of wide adoption of such ways of thinking to a society should be obvious.

Critical race theory, in particular, favors race solidarity over liberalism and "color blindness". It seems obvious to me that if people getting told that "race" is fundamental to identity, some white people are going to start believing it too. I can't say if the current trends in white nationalism are linked to this, but they could be.

Also, CRT focuses on the privileges and structural evils of "whiteness" rather than the specific wrongs and injustices of racial discrimination. Personally, I think that as a society we ought to focus on identifying and correcting mistreatment of minorities instead of focusing on a rather broad and poorly defined systemic problem with the majority.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

 

[Mr Person]

Just a few ways.

All the "critical theories" are built on postmodernist, deconstructionist philosophy. In general, it minimizes the importance of objectivity, and rejects logic and science as just more parts of the dominant culture. Intellectually, all of that stuff is sawing off the limb you're sitting on. The consequences of wide adoption of such ways of thinking to a society should be obvious.

Critical race theory, in particular, favors race solidarity over liberalism and "color blindness". It seems obvious to me that if people getting told that "race" is fundamental to identity, some white people are going to start believing it too. I can't say if the current trends in white nationalism are linked to this, but they could be.

Also, CRT focuses on the privileges and structural evils of "whiteness" rather than the specific wrongs and injustices of racial discrimination. Personally, I think that as a society we ought to focus on identifying and correcting mistreatment of minorities instead of focusing on a rather broad and poorly defined systemic problem with the majority.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

The first point doesn't explain any causes of harm and their mechanism.

The second identifies an alleged harm - that race is fundamental to identity - but does not explain why being told that if you're white you do have an inherent benefit you cannot control causes someone to believe that race is fundamental to identity, nor does it identify what harm that might cause.

Meanwhile, "I can't say if the current trends in white nationalism are linked to this, but they could be" belongs in a dumpster fire on a sinking ship. You're trying to suggest that people became racist only after they were told about how racism harms minorities and helps whites? We can't talk about racism or its effects, because a white person might become racist? Please.

Third, no. That makes no sense and isn't what it says. Saying that white people have benefits does not mean that white people are evil. It's strange. You identified some of what CRT, but when you were asked about how it could cause "great harm", you started lying about it.





Why is it so hard to admit that the racist structure of this country over the centuries produced a system still more beneficial to white people than minorities? Slavery. Reconstruction end-runs around the end of slavery. Segregation. These have lasting effects. If you shuttle people into the worst area of your city and give it the least attention, that area is going to be shit for a very long time. There are too many examples to list.

I'm white. I benefit. I don't feel that is some kind of indictment of my character. That doesn't take anything away from my achievements. It's true. And if someone else decides the fact that they were help somehow undercuts their achievements and gets chagrined when a black person does better than them, that doesn't mean CRT is bad. That means that their brand of racism is why CRT exists in the first place....what lead to it.

 

[Carleen]

It has nothing to do with skin color or appearance. If you were working in certain fields you would see lots of dark skinned Indians, Middle Easterners, Asians, etc. Race is not the problem -- it is cultural. Black culture in the US has been problematic because of its history. And other reasons.


But a person's "cover" gives many hints about who they are. Race gives clues about what culture they grew up in. Hair styles, clothes, etc., provide lots of hints about their background, subculture, and personality. Body language and facial expressions tell you a lot.

There is no way to separate the surface from the "inner person."

I agree we should avoid making unfair assumptions -- like thinking a person must have less education and less money because they are Afro-American. Of course, that assumption could get corrected as soon as they start talking.

Remember what they say about assume.

 

[aociswundumho]

Forget black people. Think about America's treatment of the first peoples of America. Their treatment when we came here, and our treatment of them today. Tell me how badly white people have it in America. You should get out more often.

If they were treated worse than white people today, then Liz Warren wouldn't have lied about being native American when she applied to Harvard. She lied because she knew it would benefit her.

 

[noonereal]

We're all racist to some degree. It's human nature. Best is to just admit it and try not to act on those racist instincts.

Exactly

Most of us start by not uttering the N-word when referring to black people. Once a person masters that, the rest is easy.

Most the folks I know never used the word. I only heard it used by blacks growing up. I was not in a red state, I guess that is why.

 

[aociswundumho]

Why is it so hard to admit that the racist structure of this country over the centuries produced a system still more beneficial to white people than minorities?

Because it's probably not true. If it were true, then Indian-Americans, Pakistani-Americans, Ghanaian-Americans, and Nigerian-Americans wouldn't have higher household incomes than white Americans. Why aren't white racists holding them down?

Slavery. Reconstruction end-runs around the end of slavery. Segregation. These have lasting effects.

Jews have been hated and persecuted for literally thousands of years, yet they are still economically successful. Slavery ended 156 years ago, and the Jim Crow laws enacted by Democrats ended 50 years ago. There are no "lasting effects" for young black people today.

 

[vanceen]

The first point doesn't explain any causes of harm and their mechanism.

The second identifies an alleged harm - that race is fundamental to identity - but does not explain why being told that if you're white you do have an inherent benefit you cannot control causes someone to believe that race is fundamental to identity, nor does it identify what harm that might cause.

Meanwhile, "I can't say if the current trends in white nationalism are linked to this, but they could be" belongs in a dumpster fire on a sinking ship. You're trying to suggest that people became racist only after they were told about how racism harms minorities and helps whites? We can't talk about racism or its effects, because a white person might become racist? Please.

Third, no. That makes no sense and isn't what it says. Saying that white people have benefits does not mean that white people are evil. It's strange. You identified some of what CRT, but when you were asked about how it could cause "great harm", you started lying about it.





Why is it so hard to admit that the racist structure of this country over the centuries produced a system still more beneficial to white people than minorities? Slavery. Reconstruction end-runs around the end of slavery. Segregation. These have lasting effects. If you shuttle people into the worst area of your city and give it the least attention, that area is going to be shit for a very long time. There are too many examples to list.

I'm white. I benefit. I don't feel that is some kind of indictment of my character. That doesn't take anything away from my achievements. It's true. And if someone else decides the fact that they were help somehow undercuts their achievements and gets chagrined when a black person does better than them, that doesn't mean CRT is bad. That means that their brand of racism is why CRT exists in the first place....what lead to it.

Thanks for your efforts to understand what I posted. Most of your response has nothing to do with my answers to your question. I suppose you were just picking a fight rather than wondering about potential harm of critical theory.

I tried.

 

[Mr Person]

Thanks for your efforts to understand what I posted. Most of your response has nothing to do with my answers to your question. I suppose you were just picking a fight rather than wondering about potential harm of critical theory.

I tried.

You tried? Well, I'm sorry that DP isn't buying Stormfront swill. Take your idiotic and moronically racist fake white victim routine there.



Wait, wait. Let me guess. You say racist shit to provoke a comment that what you said is. But you make sure to say "I'm not saying racist shit!" Then, if someone calls what you said racist, you say "see, I told you they'd call it racist." And that, in turn, is supposed to cast doubt on other instances of people calling things racist. If absorbed, people care less about it.

That's the deal. The trouble is....it doesn't work. You're only communicating to the already recruited.




If a white person hears about how white people really do benefit from the systems created through centuries of slavery, segregation, and racism, and that person truly becomes a white supremacist as a result.....

...that person isn't justified. They aren't living up to the basic minimum standard of human decency. They're a racist and more.

 

[vanceen]

...

If a white person hears about how white people really do benefit from the systems created through centuries of slavery, segregation, and racism, and that person truly becomes a white supremacist as a result.....

...that person isn't justified. They aren't living up to the basic minimum standard of human decency. They're a racist and more.

That might be an interesting point if anyone had suggested that someone would become a white supremacist from hearing about benefits to white people of slavery, segregation, and racism. Unfortunately, no one said that, as far as I know. I certainly didn't.

 

[dixon01767]

. Another of CRT's ideas is that racial bigotry and prejudice are not racism,

Never read that one and certainly not a view held by any of the prominent CRT writers Who condemn both institutional and individual racism.

 

[bomberfox]

Just a few ways.

All the "critical theories" are built on postmodernist, deconstructionist philosophy. In general, it minimizes the importance of objectivity, and rejects logic and science as just more parts of the dominant culture. Intellectually, all of that stuff is sawing off the limb you're sitting on. The consequences of wide adoption of such ways of thinking to a society should be obvious.

Critical race theory, in particular, favors race solidarity over liberalism and "color blindness". It seems obvious to me that if people getting told that "race" is fundamental to identity, some white people are going to start believing it too. I can't say if the current trends in white nationalism are linked to this, but they could be.

Also, CRT focuses on the privileges and structural evils of "whiteness" rather than the specific wrongs and injustices of racial discrimination. Personally, I think that as a society we ought to focus on identifying and correcting mistreatment of minorities instead of focusing on a rather broad and poorly defined systemic problem with the majority.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Thats not what postmodern nor deconstruction means. Postmodernism doesnt reject objectivity. It rejects broad inevitable stories of history. Marxism would not fall under postmodernism because his theories fall under the modernist umbrella.

 

[vanceen]

Never read that one and certainly not a view held by any of the prominent CRT writers Who condemn both institutional and individual racism.

Individual bigotry may be condemned (and they're right to do so), but their view is that without institutional power, it's not racism. It's just bigotry.

 

[vanceen]

Thats not what postmodern nor deconstruction means. Postmodernism doesnt reject objectivity. It rejects broad inevitable stories of history. Marxism would not fall under postmodernism because his theories fall under the modernist umbrella.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/postmodernism-philosophy

Postmodernists deny that there are aspects of reality that are objective; that there are statements about reality that are objectively true or false; that it is possible to have knowledge of such statements (objective knowledge); that it is possible for human beings to know some things with certainty;...

 

[dixon01767]

Equal rights and equal citizenship for all Americans. We dont all have the same abilities, even Marx critiqued that idea in his critique of the gotha program.

Thats why the left now demands racial equity, and opposes racial equality.