• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Race, Crime, and American History X[W:33]

He's challenging the numbers being used, nothing else. What you are doing is straight-up bigotry. It's no different than trying to make it look like all blacks are gang members, criminals, poverty stricken, welfare cheats, etc. All lies. What you posted was all lies as well and was just as driven by hate as those who wear white hoods and burn crosses in people's yards.

yeah i get it... your saying that anyone who claims racism exists is a reverse racist against whites.... the problem with that logic is that it also makes you a racist, but im sure you already knew that
 
Saying youtube comments are the pulse of American culture is stretching it a bit.

I don't think sifting through the Top 20 comments, and then the Top 20 Newest comments, as a basis for my comment, is a fallacious foundation.
 
Why the Ridiculous Ed Norton strawman...which was TRUE?
Why not do a LITTLE homework and find the stats.
Your OP sucks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

Homicide

According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for Blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites (per 100,000), and the victim rate 6 times higher (per 100,000).
[.......]

Robbery

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, the black arrest rate for robbery was 8.55 times Higher than whites, and blacks were 16 times more likely to be incarcerated for robbery than non-Hispanic whites. Robberies with White victims and Black offenders were more than 12 Times more common than the reverse.[38][39]​

Then of course, there is your fallacious linking of One movie/scene with 'Hollywood' in general.

Did you really try to use two categories of crime, and pass them off to me like I don't know what the aggregate categories that comprise Total Crime, which is how you establish a comment like "some form of the correctional system"? And then you tried to strengthen your case by comparing percentage relativity black vs. white in a sad red herring attempt to sound intelligent?

Yeah. I include you in the - I hope you don't have children - comment.
 
No, what happened was the unbelievably Obtuse Opening post tried to use 'Ed Norton' as a strawman without posting Any real stats.
What a Joke.

Those stats that I used in the OP are from the FBIs website. Multiple links. Not just some HuffPost article from a bored journalist. If you really want to me to post them, I will. It might make you look like a lazy, uneducated jackass to continue to challenge me on this. So - let me know. I would recommend not commenting back. That's probably your best option at this juncture.
 
Your math skills are deplorable. I truly hope you do not have a technical vocation.

So, you are implying that if you include ALL 2.64 million arrests in the "correctional system" remark instead of the 560,000, then you get 33%. That's your assertion? OK. Calculator time.

(2.64 + 1.12) / 38.3 = 9.8172 % !! And you thought you would pass it off as 33.3%. Oh my gosh, you are just as lazy and ignorant as the fools who flood YouTube with stupidity.

I hope you do not have children.

I am not implying any such thing. I consider an arrest to place one into the criminal justice system. An arrest in one year does not simply disappear after that year. Since I have been arrested then that means that I am always an arrest statistic. Nobody is arguing that 33% are arrested in any given year.
 
THIS string IS on Black Crime and it's frequency.
I posted Wiki stats on such.


I will not engage you further, nor will you engage me withOUT putting some ON TOPIC meat on the bone.
Go ahead, make my day.. Keep Trolling/emptily and personally insulting me and everyone else.

This thread is ABout gibberish i THOUGHT. i give YOU credIT for adding tO it.
 
Did you really try to use two categories of crime, and pass them off to me like I don't know what the aggregate categories that comprise Total Crime, which is how you establish a comment like "some form of the correctional system"? And then you tried to strengthen your case by comparing percentage relativity black vs. white in a sad red herring attempt to sound intelligent?

Yeah. I include you in the - I hope you don't have children - comment.
Again, what happened, and for which you have NO ANSWER, is that You tried to Strawman 'Ed Norton' in your absurd OP, and I called you on it.
You still cannot defend that Absurd post. Instead you try the [weak] attack.

I DID post the two of the most serious Crimes and their relatives rates of commission. (What a travesty huh!)
Certainly a Relevant Proxy, and infinitely better than an 'Ed Norton' movie speech!
 
Last edited:
Moderator's Warning:
Thread reopened. Personal attacks will result in points and thread bans going forward, and posts made before this warning may still be subject to moderation.

In other words, cut it out. Seriously.
 
Last edited:
I am not implying any such thing. I consider an arrest to place one into the criminal justice system. An arrest in one year does not simply disappear after that year. Since I have been arrested then that means that I am always an arrest statistic. Nobody is arguing that 33% are arrested in any given year.

I never mentioned 33% in one year. Anywhere. Ever. Nor has anyone said it. Anywhere. Ever. Your backtracking is hurting your credibility.

So, now you are implying that once you have been arrested, regardless of sentencing or conviction, that you are in some form of the correctional system for the rest of your life? As your "disappear" statement strongly suggests.

Oh boy. Credibility eroding.
 
Again, what happened, and for which you have NO ANSWER, is that You tried to Strawman 'Ed Norton' in your absurd OP, and I called you on it.
You still cannot defend that Absurd post. Instead you try the [weak] attack.

I DID post the two of the most serious Crimes and their relatives rates of commission. (What a travesty huh!)
Certainly a Relevant Proxy, and infinitely better than an 'Ed Norton' movie speech!

You introduced a red herring, on the straw man comment - for which I have no intent on wasting time. If the post is so absurd - then refute the statistics. Statistics that comprise entirety.

Otherwise, your best argument is fallacy of composition.
 
I never mentioned 33% in one year. Anywhere. Ever. Nor has anyone said it. Anywhere. Ever. Your backtracking is hurting your credibility.

So, now you are implying that once you have been arrested, regardless of sentencing or conviction, that you are in some form of the correctional system for the rest of your life? As your "disappear" statement strongly suggests.

Oh boy. Credibility eroding.

That (bolded above) is correct. Once a person has been arrested then they have an arrest record. I have supplied links and you have not.
 
That (bolded above) is correct. Once a person has been arrested then they have an arrest record. I have supplied links and you have not.

You're really calling me out on links? FBI.gov. I spent a while doing the research. Have at it, if you really want to sound like a non-lazy, big boy
 
Those stats that I used in the OP are from the FBIs website. Multiple links. Not just some HuffPost article from a bored journalist. If you really want to me to post them, I will. It might make you look like a lazy, uneducated jackass to continue to challenge me on this. So - let me know. I would recommend not commenting back. That's probably your best option at this juncture.
Not originally posting them makes the original poster the lazy one.


You're really calling me out on links?
As you should be as you have not provided any.


That is an a partial address to the FBI. Not a link to the specific information you say exists.


Let me give you an example of how one may quote information and link to it.

For example:
It has been brought up what Bernie said in regards to 1 in 3 black men will go to prison in their lifetime, which is also something which Hillary has used on the campaign trail.


Supposedly Bernie's information comes from the following.


(Second to last bullet point in the Highlights box on the right hand side of the first page.)

"About 1 in 3 black males, 1 in 6 Hispanic males, and 1 in 17 white males are expected to go to prison during their lifetime, if current incarceration rates remain unchanged."

U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Special Report
August 2003, NCJ 197976
Prevalence of Imprisonment in the U.S. Population, 1974-2001


This is a link to Politifact regarding Bernie's statement linking to the above source.



See how easy it is to quote and source?
 
He used that stat too point out racism in the criminal justice system,
No, he did not point out any racism in that fact.
Secondly, whether he believes it is based on racism is irrelevant, as the vast majority of those folks do not get sent to prison on false claims, especially considering that the vast majority of those who get sentenced to prison are done so on a plea agreement.
No, these stats are not based in racism but in actual crime committed.


most people would see a statistic like that as being proof of systemic racism in America nationwide,
No, most people would not.


but the republicans claim its proof that blacks are inferior as a race
No they do not.
If used, it is to highlight a problem that exists.
 
It's not intentionally misleading at all. It's calling out laziness and people who stare at the screen, letting the 1984 BIG HEAD brainwash them as they stare, silent, breathing through their mouths ...

Question everything. Do your homework. Monologues without VERIFIABLE statistics are hot air at best. And that's Ed Norton's character. 98% hot air, with occasional statistics mixed in (that are MASSIVELY inaccurate), preying upon uneducated, disempowered, sexually-frustrated, young, impressionable, directionless males who need purpose in life. WHO wants Kool-Aid !! ??

You are talking about a damn movie.

If people feel "informed" after watching American History X, I would agree that we have a major problem. I suggest the even bigger problem than news and commentary sources also making people feel "informed," but end up very misinformed... this time on purpose, and not because of entertainment.
 
Not originally posting them makes the original poster the lazy one.


As you should be as you have not provided any.


That is an a partial address to the FBI. Not a link to the specific information you say exists.


Let me give you an example of how one may quote information and link to it.

For example:
It has been brought up what Bernie said in regards to 1 in 3 black men will go to prison in their lifetime, which is also something which Hillary has used on the campaign trail.


Supposedly Bernie's information comes from the following.


(Second to last bullet point in the Highlights box on the right hand side of the first page.)

"About 1 in 3 black males, 1 in 6 Hispanic males, and 1 in 17 white males are expected to go to prison during their lifetime, if current incarceration rates remain unchanged."

U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Special Report
August 2003, NCJ 197976
Prevalence of Imprisonment in the U.S. Population, 1974-2001


This is a link to Politifact regarding Bernie's statement linking to the above source.



See how easy it is to quote and source?

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...he-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf
 
yeah i get it... your saying that anyone who claims racism exists is a reverse racist against whites.... the problem with that logic is that it also makes you a racist, but im sure you already knew that

NOPE. I never said that. I said that you are being a bigot because you are one. What you posted was pure bigotry, no different than the crap spewed in the video you posted... It doesn't go any further that that. You want to shift the discussion away from that uncomfortable truth by making me the bad guy, when in fact, YOU are the one who's exhibiting chauvinistic, bigoted attitudes. Now your trying the tired old crap of throwing out a strawman in order to avoid the truth of your own bigotry.
 
How many people watch that oh-so-famous dinner scene when Ed Norton totally takes control of the discussion of the L.A. riots ... turns it into a Rodney King discussion ... and then uses the line - "Look at the statistics for ... sake, One in every three black males is in some phase of the correctional system." And then he continues to dominate the monologue with vicious segues, slalom-esque red-herrings ... and a table full of family members clearly in a submissive state.

So, I like to check in on YouTube every year or so on this particular clip. Get a taste of the "pulse" of American culture as I browse through the Top Comments and most recent comments. AND IT CONTINUES to BAFFLE me ... the regurgitative level of ignorance that plagues our nation. Lazy, impressionable, lemmings who look up to the big Hollywood screen like the 1984 Apple commercial. Letting Studio City brainwash your hearts AND minds. I recently scanned the comments. Maybe 17 out of 20 of the top comments were all CLEARLY on Ed Norton's side. Yeah.

All of you who agree with Ed Norton ... I hope none of you have children. Too lazy to do your homework. Letting Hollywood brainwash you. Your ignorance is almost up there with racism.

Here. Let me educate you. AND PAY ATTENTION.

As of 2009 (and I know this movie is from 1998, but the numbers won't change that drastically), in terms of Total Crime and All Age groups reported where the arrests were made, there were apprx 2.64 million black offenders. Those were the arrests. Not convictions. About 560,000 were ACTUALLY sentenced. As of 2009, there were 1.12 million total black people on parole and probation. This constitutes that VAST bulk of the "correctional system" remark Ed Norton makes. Add the two - and you have about 1.68 million. OK !! ?? So, as of 2009, the black population was about 38.3 million. DO THE FREAKING MATH. When Derek uses the "One in three" phrase (apprx 33%), HE HAS his head so far up his ASS with racism and bigotry. The statistics that I just illustrated say that not even 4.5% black people (or, less than 1 in 20) actually fit that description.

DO YOUR HW people before you let Bollywood brainwash you.

I fear for the future when you are Managers, Supervisors, and CEOs.

Putting the rhetoric from a Hollywood movie's racist character aside (and it is a great movie btw)...the real numbers don't lie.

Blacks make up 8.8% of the US population, yet they make up 37.6% of the prison population. I don't pretend to know the reason why and I'm not saying blacks are inferior. I'm just giving you the numbers. The real numbers. The facts are the facts.
 
Putting the rhetoric from a Hollywood movie's racist character aside (and it is a great movie btw)...the real numbers don't lie.

Blacks make up 8.8% of the US population, yet they make up 37.6% of the prison population. I don't pretend to know the reason why and I'm not saying blacks are inferior. I'm just giving you the numbers. The real numbers. The facts are the facts.

I've come across statistics that say AAs account for higher percentage than that. But that is a red herring that is not my point here.

My real point was to CUT right through the seductive, domineering, overpowering (and masterfully written) monologue of Derek (I referred to the character earlier using Ed Norton, and some uneducated commentators on this site thought that was their best opportunity at making an abysmal, laughable point ... anyhoo).

My point was to tell everyone here how startling it is, how often I check YouTube to find almost 90% on a regular basis - AGREE - with Derek. So, what is the easiest way to challenge a thesis? Go after the statistics. So, I went to the FBI website to establish Total Crime demographics, as well as parole and probation. And in the end, Derek's statistic was as ignorant as his level of bigotry and racism.

Bottom line - I challenge people to question everything. If the big head on the 1984 screen says drink the Kool-Aid, have enough initiative and intelligence to question what's in it. Don't swallow seductive B&W Hollywood speeches. Do some homework first.
 
Lazy.
I see you are still not quite getting the concept.

Regardless.

So far you have failed to support any of your arguments with this reply.
That is because neither one year's arrest stats (Table 43), nor a crime victim survey containing incomplete information and limited data covering only two years is relevant to the entire breadth of the claim.

We are speaking to a claim in a movie written and filmed almost twenty years ago.
You have not shown what information they relied on at the time to make their claim, nor have you shown that the claim at that time was wrong.

Secondly, your response does not refute the claim both Bernie and Hillary have used in their campaigns.


My real point was to CUT right through the seductive, domineering, overpowering (and masterfully written) monologue of Derek (I referred to the character earlier using Ed Norton, and some uneducated commentators on this site thought that was their best opportunity at making an abysmal, laughable point ... anyhoo).
Is that your real point? Well you haven't done that.

As previously provided.

(Second to last bullet point in the Highlights box on the right hand side of the first page.)

"About 1 in 3 black males, 1 in 6 Hispanic males, and 1 in 17 white males are expected to go to prison during their lifetime, if current incarceration rates remain unchanged."

U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Special Report
August 2003, NCJ 197976
Prevalence of Imprisonment in the U.S. Population, 1974-2001

I am sure you understand that the above information is what the Government was holding out to be true at the time.
So try explaining how it would be possible to expect "one in every three black males" to be incarcerated and have them not be "in some phase of the correctional system"?


The only real issue here is if that prediction still holds true. Given the increase of the population and the decrease in the overall crime rates, I would say it doesn't.


My point was to tell everyone here how startling it is, how often I check YouTube to find almost 90% on a regular basis - AGREE - with Derek. So, what is the easiest way to challenge a thesis? Go after the statistics. So, I went to the FBI website to establish Total Crime demographics, as well as parole and probation. And in the end, Derek's statistic was as ignorant as his level of bigotry and racism.

Bottom line - I challenge people to question everything. If the big head on the 1984 screen says drink the Kool-Aid, have enough initiative and intelligence to question what's in it. Don't swallow seductive B&W Hollywood speeches. Do some homework first.
You let your bias get in the way of rationality.
You first have to show that based on the available information at the time that it wasn't true, or that it wasn't reasonable to believe it to be true to be passing any such judgement on it. (something I am sure you can not do)

Secondly, if you have a problem with YouTube posters, it seems that you should be addressing them with something like the following.

Though blacks disproportionately commit far more crime than other races, the "1 in 3" statement by Derek, while it may have been true at one time, based on today's stats, doesn't appear to be true now.
 
Back
Top Bottom