Questions regarding flotilla from a neophyte

[Tucker Case]

The blood of the martyrs and the willing of Allah is apparently the acceptable method amongst Hamas.

It is however more likely to become independent once a peace agreement would be signed, establishing the Palestinian state.

What currently prevents them from gaining independence?

 

[gunner]

I wouldn't say that it being an act of war gives Hamas the right to launch rockets into Israel since the rockets are headed towards civilian targets or they are indiscriminately fired.

If they were headed at military targets, that'd be a different story.

Comparatively speaking Hamas and Israels military are moons apart. Hamas fighters would forfeit their supposed right 'to virgins forever' to be able to even make a dent in the Israeli war machine. So the as you call it 'indiscriminate' use of rocket attacks are 'indiscriminate' by nature, design and functionality, put simply they are totally ineffective. IIRC no Israeli citizen has been killed [fortunately] by a rocket since Israels last incursion into Gaza.
In answer to you point the attacks are seen as 'doing something' rather 'nothing' against the perceived brutality of the state of Israel.

Paul

 

[Apocalypse]

What currently prevents them from gaining independence?

Well before the peace agreement with Israel they need to reach a compromise with the PLO which controls the West Bank and mainly represents the Palestinians. (Led by Mahmoud Abbas)
Right now they're both separated and in that situation they cannot really work towards creating a state.

 

[Tucker Case]

Comparatively speaking Hamas and Israels military are moons apart. Hamas fighters would forfeit their supposed right 'to virgins forever' to be able to even make a dent in the Israeli war machine. So the as you call it 'indiscriminate' use of rocket attacks are 'indiscriminate' by nature, design and functionality, put simply they are totally ineffective. IIRC no Israeli citizen has been killed [fortunately] by a rocket since Israels last incursion into Gaza.
In answer to you point the attacks are seen as 'doing something' rather 'nothing' against the perceived brutality of the state of Israel.

Paul

The IRA was able to focus primarily on combatant targets while in a similar situation.

 

[Tucker Case]

Well before the peace agreement with Israel they need to reach a compromise with the PLO which controls the West Bank and mainly represents the Palestinians. (Led by Mahmoud Abbas)
Right now they're both separated and in that situation they cannot really work towards creating a state.

Do Gaza and the West bank need to be part of the same state?

 

[Apocalypse]

Do Gaza and the West bank need to be part of the same state?

For those who stick by the two-states solution (the majority of the world), yes.
For those who promote a three-states solution due to the huge difference between Hamas and the PLO, no.

 

[Tucker Case]

For those who stick by the two-states solution (the majority of the world), yes.
For those who promote a three-states solution due to the huge difference between Hamas and the PLO, no.

Makes sense.

Do you know why the two-state solution is the prefefered one?

 

[gunner]

The IRA was able to focus primarily on combatant targets while in a similar situation.

Absolutely no comparison. The IRA were not 'blockaded' into Northern Ireland, hence there ability to travel at will. This enabled training in Libya and plan attacks in Gibraltar [fortunately unsuccessful] and other parts of the world.

Paul

 

[Apocalypse]

Makes sense.

Do you know why the two-state solution is the prefefered one?

It seems to be more acceptable that the entire of the Palestinian people would be united under one nation.

 

[Tucker Case]

Absolutely no comparison. The IRA were not 'blockaded' into Northern Ireland, hence there ability to travel at will. This enabled training in Libya and plan attacks in Gibraltar [fortunately unsuccessful] and other parts of the world.

Paul

The blockade prevents them from targeting military and "combatant" targets?

 

[Tucker Case]

It seems to be more acceptable that the entire of the Palestinian people would be united under one nation.

Excuse my ignorance on this if I'm wrong, but I always thought that at least a portion of Jordan was populated by what could be called "Palestinians"?

 

[gunner]

The blockade prevents them from targeting military and "combatant" targets?

I take it you're familiar with what the blockade entails?

Paul

 

[Degreez]

The blood of the martyrs and the willing of Allah is apparently the acceptable method amongst Hamas.

It is however more likely to become independent once a peace agreement would be signed, establishing the Palestinian state.

A peace agreement is not required. Palestine already fulfills the categories of the Montevideo Convention. It's recognition as a State has already been recognized by over 100 other sovereign States. According to customary international law, a State is formed when another sovereign entity recognizes it as such.

 

[Tucker Case]

I take it you're familiar with what the blockade entails?

Paul

I'm assuming it's like any blockade in that it must be somewhat near the border (read as: within range and able to be targeted) for it to be effective. Is this incorrect?

 

[Zyphlin]

Gaza is not sovereign because it is not the territory of any state.
There is no state governing the territory, only a government(Hamas), and one of the four keys for a sovereign state is independence, which Gaza lacks.

But if they're not independent because they don't have governing control over the territory, then who DOES have governing control? I thought you said Israel has no claim over Gaza.

From what I'm seeing with regards to Palestine of which I understand Gaza is a part of:

1. They have a defined portion of land with identifiable borders.
2. They have a governing body overseeing those lands.
3. They have a permanent population living within those borders and oversaw by that government
4. They are recognized through diplomatic relations by over 100 sovereign states, which is more than half the total seated at the U.N.

Which of those four aren't correct, or don't matter?

 

[Apocalypse]

Excuse my ignorance on this if I'm wrong, but I always thought that at least a portion of Jordan was populated by what could be called "Palestinians"?

No, you're absolutely right.
The absolute majority of the Jordanian citizens are Palestinians, and yet Jordan is ruled by the Hashemites minority and lays no territorial claims to the West Bank.
Some of the more right-wing Israeli politicians have offered in the past that Jordan would take over the Palestinians and become the Palestinian nation, but they are always outraged by that since they see Jordan as the Hashemites nation not the Palestinian one.

 

[Apocalypse]

But if they're not independent because they don't have governing control over the territory, then who DOES have governing control? I thought you said Israel has no claim over Gaza.

From what I'm seeing with regards to Palestine of which I understand Gaza is a part of:

1. They have a defined portion of land with identifiable borders.
2. They have a governing body overseeing those lands.
3. They have a permanent population living within those borders and oversaw by that government
4. They are recognized through diplomatic relations by over 100 sovereign states, which is more than half the total seated at the U.N.

Which of those four aren't correct, or don't matter?

No state is ruling over the territory known as Gaza, and it is destined to become part of the Palestinian state which would be established by the two-states solution.

Besides that the fourth doesn't matter as this state is at most fictional and has no declared territory/borders.

 

[Zyphlin]

No state is ruling over the territory known as Gaza, and it is destined to become part of the Palestinian state which would be established by the two-states solution.

But this doesn't make sense regarding the actual definition of a state.

States are not some kind of clear cut things where there's a little placard in the state saying "We're a State".

So far I've found two definitions of what consistutes a soveriegn state:

"A sovereign state is a political association with effective internal and external sovereignty over a geographic area and population which is not dependent on, or subject to any other power or state."

The second is the Montevideo Convention which the U.S. is part of. It defines a state as such:

1. Has a defined location under its control
2. Has a permanent residences
3. A Government
4. The ability to enter into relations with other states

So here's my issue...

In regards to the more generic definition...is Palestines control over Gaza dependent or subject to the support of another State?

In regards to the broader, which of those 4 does it not have? Does it not have defined land? Does it not have a permanent population? Does it not have a government? Does it not have diplomatic ties with other states?

Besides that the fourth doesn't matter as this state is at most fictional and has no declared territory/borders.

Wait...Gaza and West Bank doesn't have borders?

 

[Apocalypse]

But this doesn't make sense regarding the actual definition of a state.

States are not some kind of clear cut things where there's a little placard in the state saying "We're a State".

So far I've found two definitions of what consistutes a soveriegn state:

"A sovereign state is a political association with effective internal and external sovereignty over a geographic area and population which is not dependent on, or subject to any other power or state."

The second is the Montevideo Convention which the U.S. is part of. It defines a state as such:

1. Has a defined location under its control
2. Has a permanent residences
3. A Government
4. The ability to enter into relations with other states

So here's my issue...

In regards to the more generic definition...is Palestines control over Gaza dependent or subject to the support of another State?

In regards to the broader, which of those 4 does it not have? Does it not have defined land? Does it not have a permanent population? Does it not have a government? Does it not have diplomatic ties with other states?

It doesn't have independence. It is dependent on another state (Israel) to supply it with electricity, for example.

Wait...Gaza and West Bank doesn't have borders?

The state decalred by Yasser Arafat in 1988 in algeirs has had no declared territory/borders.

 

[Zyphlin]

It doesn't have independence. It is dependent on another state (Israel) to supply it with electricity, for example.

Does Israel give this freely or is Gaza somehow paying for it? Is energy something that legitimately makes a state "Dependent" on each other? And if it is, how is the United States a "State" since a large portion of its energy is derived outside of its borders by other states as well?

And WHY does Israel supply it with Electricity?

The state decalred by Yasser Arafat in 1988 in algeirs has had no declared territory/borders.

As I said, in regards to specific Middle East stuff, I'm a bit ignorant to the facts of history. Have a link to what Yassar Arafat in 1988 said in Algeris, or able to tell me exactly what it is?

I guess what I'm saying is....

It makes zero sense that Gaza, and to a farther extent the West Bank, is just "nothing".

Its either a soveriegn state.....or its occupied but unclaimed territory by Israel.

It can't just be "nothing".

 

[Tucker Case]

No, you're absolutely right.
The absolute majority of the Jordanian citizens are Palestinians, and yet Jordan is ruled by the Hashemites minority and lays no territorial claims to the West Bank.
Some of the more right-wing Israeli politicians have offered in the past that Jordan would take over the Palestinians and become the Palestinian nation, but they are always outraged by that since they see Jordan as the Hashemites nation not the Palestinian one.

Thanks. I didn't realize the arrangment there was like that.

So do you know if the Jordanian Palestinians are also against this, for lack of a better term, "absorbtion" by Jordan, or are they content to remain in Jordan under Hashemite rule?

 

[CrazyMcCool]

This is the issue with the arab world, its that this genra of arab is broken down, and that is even more broken down till you have almost endless amounts of indigenous people that want their own nation.

Also I thought Jorden was suppose to be the place for the Palastians as propused by the British, but some decided not to or something ( Fix me if I am wrong )

 

[Andalublue]

The IRA was able to focus primarily on combatant targets while in a similar situation.

That's not true. The IRA consistently targeted civilians. Yes, the undertook hits on enemy individuals and British troops but you must be aware of the very worst IRA atrocities which were indiscriminate: Enniskillen, Omagh, Harrods, Warrington, Birmingham, Brighton and many more. I'm not singling out the IRA however, their Loyalist enemies, the UDA, UVF and others also targetted civilian targets indiscriminately.

 

[Apocalypse]

Does Israel give this freely or is Gaza somehow paying for it?

No. Who'll pay for it? Hamas?

Is energy something that legitimately makes a state "Dependent" on each other?

Depends if the state is really dependent on that energy. But Gaza's dependency is far from being only about electricity.

And if it is, how is the United States a "State" since a large portion of its energy is derived outside of its borders by other states as well?

The US like every other nation in the world is importing energy sources. It pays for them, it doesn't get them for free.

And WHY does Israel supply it with Electricity?

Israel used to occupy the Gaza Strip until 2005, and there's something called "The withdrawing occupier obligations to the occupied civilians" or something like that.

As I said, in regards to specific Middle East stuff, I'm a bit ignorant to the facts of history. Have a link to what Yassar Arafat in 1988 said in Algeris, or able to tell me exactly what it is?

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess what I'm saying is....

It makes zero sense that Gaza, and to a farther extent the West Bank, is just "nothing".

Its either a soveriegn state.....or its occupied but unclaimed territory by Israel.

It can't just be "nothing".

It's a non-state entity.
A territory doesn't have to be occupied or to be a state in order to exist as a territory.
Antarctica is not occupied and is not a state.

 

[Apocalypse]

Thanks. I didn't realize the arrangment there was like that.

So do you know if the Jordanian Palestinians are also against this, for lack of a better term, "absorbtion" by Jordan, or are they content to remain in Jordan under Hashemite rule?

I have absolutely no idea about the opinions of the Jordanian Palestinians regarding this.