Questions about Unconscious Bias

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

 

[tshade]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

A person can be criticized for not trying to improve his bias, unconscious or not.....

 

[Napoleon]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

I think the general idea on the part of the woke among us is that people should make an effort to have a conscious awareness of all of their speech, actions, etc to avoid causing offense to others by making every act a deliberate one. For the reasons you identified, among others, it is an unreasonable position because it simply does not comport with how the human mind works.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

A person can be criticized for not trying to improve his bias, unconscious or not.....

If the person is able to improve their bias, then they are aware of it, hence the bias is not unconscious. That's all I'm saying here.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

I think the general idea on the part of the woke among us is that people should make an effort to have a conscious awareness of all of their speech, actions, etc to avoid causing offense to others by making every act a deliberate one. For the reasons you identified, among others, it is an unreasonable position because it simply does not comport with how the human mind works.

How many times have you or I done or said something only to realize like an hour later that, "Well, that could have been said better," or "That didn't come out the way I intended?" Or, "Nope, that was wrong?"

The problem I think they are getting at is that some of us never have the moment I described. What we did prior to realizing we shot ourselves in the foot, THAT was our unconscious undoing. Some people make this an art that can go to ridiculous levels of self-sabotage.

Others of us, we may not have realized it was wrong, but later on those of us who reflect on what was said and realize the mistake, and work to correct it -- we've learned and can make a conscious effort next time to improve.

To me, this is consciously correcting an impulsive decision we've made that caused harm. We cannot be expected to always think before we speak, but we can definitely be expected to fix any unintentional damage later. Sort of like the old film production adage of "fix it in post."

 

[noonereal]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

This post is TOTALLY ****ed up.

I would not even attempt to unreel this ball of confusion, ignorance and frightenly ignorant logic.

My advise, turn off the lap top and open up some basic text books on the subject.

For $150 you can get college level lectures on line.

 

[Napoleon]

How many times have you or I done or said something only to realize like an hour later that, "Well, that could have been said better," or "That didn't come out the way I intended?" Or, "Nope, that was wrong?"

The problem I think they are getting at is that some of us never have the moment I described. What we did prior to realizing we shot ourselves in the foot, THAT was our unconscious undoing. Some people make this an art that can go to ridiculous levels of self-sabotage.

Others of us, we may not have realized it was wrong, but later on those of us who reflect on what was said and realize the mistake, and work to correct it -- we've learned and can make a conscious effort next time to improve.

To me, this is consciously correcting an impulsive decision we've made that caused harm. We cannot be expected to always think before we speak, but we can definitely be expected to fix any unintentional damage later. Sort of like the old film production adage of "fix it in post."

That’s a nice way of thinking about it. My view is that if some people can’t navigate life without falling to pieces every time they don’t get a positive affirmation of their existence then they should lock themselves away and never interact with another human again. How did this generation end up with tissue paper for skin?

 

[tshade]

If the person is able to improve their bias, then they are aware of it, hence the bias is not unconscious. That's all I'm saying here.

we need to work on awareness

 

[PoliSciPulse]

we need to work on awareness

There is nothing wrong with working on awareness, understanding your actions, and understanding . I am simply arguing that if we are aware and do nothing about it, we go from "unconscious" bias to "active" bias. So what I am stumbling on is not the bias itself -- we all have them. We can all use them to cause harm in society, or we can check it at the door when we're being aware of it.

There used to be a term, "implicit bias." I am not sure whether these terms are one in the same. However, "implicit" is a better phrase for it: things we consciously do but it sneakily presents itself. It can be the way you word a question (for example, if you're hiring someone, saying you are seeking someone who is "independent" is often code for "I want to hire a man," and/or is meant to dissuade women. It's there, it's known, but the bias is less obvious to those who can't discern its meaning.

I think "dog whistle" is another term for "implicit bias" in the sense in it that only those "in the know" would recognize the term for what it was. IF this makes sense.

So the question I have originates in the word "unconscious" in the sense of "what makes all of these biases 'unconscious,'" as opposed to just "bias" or even "active bias," if people are making a conscious decision to use it and not worrying about the ramifications.

This post is TOTALLY ****ed up.

I would not even attempt to unreel this ball of confusion, ignorance and frightenly ignorant logic.

My advise, turn off the lap top and open up some basic text books on the subject.

For $150 you can get college level lectures on line.

Greetings, troll. I see this is how you greet those who want to be informed, especially on how a concept is used. I do not deny that biases such as racism, sexism, xenophobia (through which all or most biases originate), exist. These biases

For the record, I have read up on, and what is described when dealing with subject is not unknowing -- it is BIAS. There is nothing "unconscious" about it. So rather than seeking to explain why the term is called what it is, you proceed to assume that I am ignorant -- and completely miss the point of the topic, which is not to deny that it exists, but to question why one would use the word "unconscious."

If you took the time to take a college level lecture on vocabulary and the three states of consciousness (conscious, subconscious, and unconscious), you'd see why I was stumbling on the phrase. So rather than engage in an explanation of "Why is this called this," we ran into the problem the OP was trying to avoid.

How did this generation end up with tissue paper for skin?

This generation is massively overcorrecting for the eras before civil rights. It's kind of a pendulum. You had overt racism in the system (old guard) -- people from before 1950s who are still around), the civil rights movement (which was "Acknowledge me and treat me fairly"), to this generation (which may have intensified xenophobia in the "new guard," but also intensified the feeling of wanting to belong and be treated and acknowledges in the specific way you want to be acknowledged and treated.). Interestingly, the "new guard" does, at time, do the reverse of an "unconscious bias" sort of a thing and tries to enforce "unconscious belonging."

In my estimation, it will take a few generations before we reset to a basic statement of "Acknowledge me. Treat me fairly. I have rights. You don't have to like me and I don't have to like you, but please see me for the individual value I bring to society."

Right now, the statement is more of "Acknowledge me. Treat me the way I want to be treated. I have rights that you must acknowledge. You must like me and you see me for the value I bring as an individual." Trump was a personification of individuality and a push in the diametric opposite direction of where the current generation is going; in sum, he was a sort of market correction and a natural outgrowth for those dissatisfied with the way society and forced belonging is turning out to be. The pendulum needs to be adjusted to be more moderate. I am all for inclusion and belonging (me being an outcast for most of my childhood and college years), but the problem is we can get kind of ridiculous with it sometimes. Trump was the old guard being ridiculous right back at the new guard. There is a middle ground to be had here, but we've yet to settle on one that society as a whole can agree on.

This doesn't mean this generation is right or wrong; it's a step in the right direction in my opinion, but in wanting to be recognized for your individual worth and going about it in this manner, they are ironically needing to force their inclusion into society. You can have individualism and societal value, but push too far in one direction, what you are advocated for goes out of balance and might repulse people.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

(Someone just clarified to for me: Unconscious Bias is "Baked in" to society, while implicit is more for individuals.)

 

[NatMorton]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

“Unconscious bias” in its most common use is less a scientific concept and more a rhetorical device. It’s a tool used by the social justice scolds to assert “I say you’re a racist, even if you think you are not.”

It’s best handled with a counter-charge of unconscious idiocy as you’re likely not dealing with an intellectually honest person, so who cares?

 

[vegas giants]

“Unconscious bias” in its most common use is less a scientific concept and more a rhetorical device. It’s a tool used by the social justice scolds to assert “I say you’re a racist, even if you think you are not.”

It’s best handled with a counter-charge of unconscious idiocy as you’re likely not dealing with an intellectually honest person, so who cares?

Unconscious bias clearly exists whether you know it or not. Almost no one denies this

 

[AJG]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

You're right that unconscious biases can be hard to deal with, but that doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be addressed. One example of this is resume bias:

Minority job applicants are “whitening” their resumes by deleting references to their race with the hope of boosting their shot at jobs, and research shows the strategy is paying off.

In fact, companies are more than twice as likely to call minority applicants for interviews if they submit whitened resumes than candidates who reveal their race—and this discriminatory practice is just as strong for businesses that claim to value diversity as those that don’t.

Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews

African American and Asian job applicants who mask their race on resumes seem to have better success getting job interviews, according to research by Katherine DeCelles and colleagues.

hbswk.hbs.edu

Although this unconscious bias might be very difficult or impossible to eliminate, it can be dealt with by simply stripping the names off of resumes.

So how can we deal with unconscious biases? Step 1: First identify and recognize that an unconscious bias exists. Step 2: Figure out ways we can mitigate these biases so they don't negatively impact people.

 

[mrjurrs]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

I think you are using unconscious too literally. Imo, it is referring to bias that you don't consciously take on.

If my parents are D's I'm more likely to be a D.
If I go to an all white school, I'm more likely to be biased in favor of segregated schools.

I believe that unconscious bias can be addressed by recognizing, or becoming conscious of it, and working to change yourself.

 

[NatMorton]

As I say above, “unconscious bias” in its most common use is less a scientific concept and more a rhetorical device. It’s a tool used by social justice scolds to assert “I say you’re a racist, even if you honestly believe you are not.” We all should question our assumptions from time to time, but one assumption worth holding on to is to view skeptically anyone who uses the phrase "unconscious bias" in an attempt to win an argument.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

I think you are using unconscious too literally. Imo, it is referring to bias that you don't consciously take on.

If my parents are D's I'm more likely to be a D.
If I go to an all white school, I'm more likely to be biased in favor of segregated schools.

I believe that unconscious bias can be addressed by recognizing, or becoming conscious of it, and working to change yourself.

This is exactly the type of response that I was hoping to get. Thank you. I am wired to take things more literally than they should be, so that is part of why I was stumbling n the phrase.

 

[MrWonka]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is.

Think about it like being right-handed or left-handed. If you're right-handed, your natural tendency is to pick things up with your right hand. You don't think about it, that's just natural.
Now, in college, I briefly joined a frat, and they had a rule where you had to drink with your left hand. If someone caught you drinking with your right hand they'd yell buffalo, and you had to chug the rest of your drink whatever it was.
So obviously over time, I trained myself to remember to put my drink in my left hand. Eventually, it just became more natural to do it that way. I'd still slip up every once in a while, but it was rare, and I usually caught myself before others did.
By being conscious of what my unconscious bias was, I was able to account for it and correct it.

By the same token, we have unconscious biases that lead us to judge people differently. Studies have consistently shown that more attractive criminals tend to get lighter sentences.
People with lighter complexions tend to be considered more trustworthy.
Your perception of whether you can handle a person physically tends to influence how you treat them.

If you take an honest assessment of yourself and look at the raw data you can become consciously aware of the ways in which your unconscious or subconscious instincts lead you to make biased choices. If you're aware of them, you can make a conscious effort to account for them and correct them.

 

[craig]

I have always had a stumbling block on is the phrase 'unconscious bias." According to what used to be (please update this for me if I'm wrong) classic psychology, there are three main levels of conscious: the conscious, the subconscious, and the unconscious (or sometimes called "primal instincts). Where I stumble on is that while the subconscious may talk to the conscious through dreams, they larger do not interact, and neither does the unconscious talk to the conscious.

So, here's the stumbling block I have had in dealing with the phrase "unconscious bias." If the bias you have is truly unconscious, then you are not aware you are doing it. It is not something that can be trained out of you and so forth because that part of the brain never connects to the conscious. My conscious self could be racist, but my unconscious self would never know it, and vice-versa.

This is where I stumble, bBecause if we define "unconscious" in the classic psychological way, then the following is true:

1) It is not correctable consciously no matter how bad the bias is. Since you're not aware of what you're thinking while you're awake (aka, consciously), and therefore
2) There is no use calling it out because it's unconscious and you're not aware you're doing it and nor will you ever be (because once you are, it becomes a conscious choice and the "unconscious" part no longer applies, and therefore
3) This is not a battle that cannot be won on a conscious level.

Perhaps I am taking the definition too literally, which is why I ask for help in understanding the concept so I can at least understand what being referred to when others use the phrase, "unconscious bias"

The unconscious contains the instinctual behaviors evolution developed in us before we ever became conscious. Civilization (culture) is the process of overcoming those instincts.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

Thank you very much! "Unconscious" in this context therefore does not mean "state of mind," like conscious, unconscious, subconscious, but rather things we do without thinking

In Mindfulness, they would call this "fast brain" (patterns of behavior we revert to) vs. "slow brain" (patterns of behavior we have to make an effort to change)