Question for the left: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents? (1 Viewer)

[SixStringHero]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

He should have said, "Neo-liberals":doh

:rofl

Sounds about right.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

The insurgency is getting its *** kicked - all they are doing here is asking for a 2-year truce so they can refit and reorganize.

You only offer a truce when you're way ahead or way behind.
They arent way ahead.

Actually, what they are doing is playing politics. They know we will not agree to a set timetable, so once we disagree to it, they will simply use this to portray themselves as fighters against "imperial occupiers".

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

So we accept it and the terrorists lay low, lick their wounds bring in thousand more then the day after we leave its all out war.............

That is entirely possible. However, the same thing is entirely possible if we DON'T accept their offer, which is why this argument falls apart. Suppose we refuse this offer, and we manage to "secure" Iraq within the next year, leading to the withdrawal of our troops. Would it not be possible that the terrorists are doing exactly what you mentioned above?

Liberals trust terrorists, Conservatives don't............

Your simple-mindedness is quite annoying, FYI.

 

[Deegan]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

That is entirely possible. However, the same thing is entirely possible if we DON'T accept their offer, which is why this argument falls apart. Suppose we refuse this offer, and Iraq suddenly becomes peaceful within the next year. Would it not be possible that the terrorists are doing exactly what you mentioned above?



Your simple-mindedness is quite annoying, FYI.

Even if it did work, we have sent the message that we negotiate with terrorists, so now we must do so with Hamas, and others, we cannot do that IMO.

 

[Caine]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Personally, there are good arguments to be heard on both sides of the table.

But, I have to say that we should NOT take the deal offer, but we should find a way to turn thier offer down without making us look like the "bad guy" to the rest of the crazy *** muslim world. Now, how to do that is beyond me.

No, we aren't dumb enough to agree to take a deal with the terrorists.
but,
Yes, they ARE playing politics. And an outright, "Hell no" would definately inspire more to join the ranks of the insurgents, and possibly make it harder on our troops.

So, I say no, but im still not certain about what we should (or even could) do to minimize the political damage such a decision could cost.

 

[Deegan]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Personally, there are good arguments to be heard on both sides of the table.

But, I have to say that we should NOT take the deal offer, but we should find a way to turn thier offer down without making us look like the "bad guy" to the rest of the crazy *** muslim world. Now, how to do that is beyond me.

No, we aren't dumb enough to agree to take a deal with the terrorists.
but,
Yes, they ARE playing politics. And an outright, "Hell no" would definately inspire more to join the ranks of the insurgents, and possibly make it harder on our troops.

So, I say no, but im still not certain about what we should (or even could) do to minimize the political damage such a decision could cost.

We could explain that we would not buy cheap oil from Saddam, not while he was killing his own people, and then compare that to this same scenario.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Even if it did work, we have sent the message that we negotiate with terrorists, so now we must do so with Hamas, and others, we cannot do that IMO.

It's not negotiating with them if it's the outcome we want anyway.

Here's an analogy: Suppose a bank robber botches a job, and takes a bunch of people hostage. The police send in a negotiator. The bank robber's only demand is that he be treated humanely by the police, and given a fair trial by a jury of his peers. Well, that's (hopefully) what the police wanted anyway. The police would have to be idiots to tell him "We don't negotiate with kidnappers." Instead they should tell him "We agree to your terms, now release the hostages."

 

[Doremus Jessup]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

You don't negotiate with terrorists no matter how much the left wants to.......

Didn't bin Laden demand that U.S. forces leave the "holy land", e.g. Mecca/ Saudi Arabia? So when we pulled our troops out, weren't we making deals with the terrorists?
I do agree with you that we should not pull out of Iraq until they can maintain the situation on their own, but who knows when that will occur.

Off-Topic: Neo-liberalism was first put to use under Reagan after the Washington Consensus, it is often refered to as "Reaganomics" or even "Thatchernomics." The current administration is certainly neo-liberal in many of its international dealings, Dubai Ports World might ring a bell.

 

[Caine]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

We could explain that we would not buy cheap oil from Saddam, not while he was killing his own people, and then compare that to this same scenario.

I don't think that would help very much.

 

[Caine]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

It's not negotiating with them if it's the outcome we want anyway.

Here's an analogy: Suppose a bank robber botches a job, and takes a bunch of people hostage. The police send in a negotiator. The bank robber's only demand is that he be treated humanely by the police, and given a fair trial by a jury of his peers. Well, that's (hopefully) what the police wanted anyway. The police would have to be idiots to tell him "We don't negotiate with kidnappers." Instead they should tell him "We agree to your terms, now release the hostages."

The difference here, is that, sadly, Bank Robbers are more rational people than insurgents.

And, we by no means have the insurgency secured nearly as well as police do when they get a bank robber inside a bank with hostages.

 

[Deegan]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

I don't think that would help very much.

Well then, you didn't give my idea much consideration, now did you.

:rofl

 

[Deegan]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

It's not negotiating with them if it's the outcome we want anyway.

Here's an analogy: Suppose a bank robber botches a job, and takes a bunch of people hostage. The police send in a negotiator. The bank robber's only demand is that he be treated humanely by the police, and given a fair trial by a jury of his peers. Well, that's (hopefully) what the police wanted anyway. The police would have to be idiots to tell him "We don't negotiate with kidnappers." Instead they should tell him "We agree to your terms, now release the hostages."

Well if it was as you say, they surrender, and we try them, then yes, I would agree, but their demands sound nothing like that, and it would send mixed messages to other potential terrorist orgs.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Personally, there are good arguments to be heard on both sides of the table.

But, I have to say that we should NOT take the deal offer, but we should find a way to turn thier offer down without making us look like the "bad guy" to the rest of the crazy *** muslim world. Now, how to do that is beyond me.

No, we aren't dumb enough to agree to take a deal with the terrorists.
but,
Yes, they ARE playing politics. And an outright, "Hell no" would definately inspire more to join the ranks of the insurgents, and possibly make it harder on our troops.

So, I say no, but im still not certain about what we should (or even could) do to minimize the political damage such a decision could cost.

I completely agree with you. I think that some people make the mistake of assuming that the vast majority of the insurgents are radical islamists using Iraq as a battleground against the west. The truth is, less than 10% of the Insurgents are foreign terrorists. For the most part the insurgency is simply Sunni militants fighting Shia, Shia death squads fighting Sunnis, and Kurds fighting for themselves. It is something of a Civil War and this is nothing but one faction playing politics.

 

[aps]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

LOL I am the only one who has voted yes. :shock:

But I must admit that I haven't truly thought this through.

 

[Caine]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Well then, you didn't give my idea much consideration, now did you.

:rofl

No, I did.
It just doesn't sound very.... "professional" I guess.

 

[Deegan]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

No, I did.
It just doesn't sound very.... "professional" I guess.

Oh, well good for me then, folks say I am always too "professional" now I'm making steps forward.

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Well, I'm not a conservative but I sure as hell don't trust terrorists.

From what I have seen of your post your not a "cut and run liberal" either.......

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Didn't bin Laden demand that U.S. forces leave the "holy land", e.g. Mecca/ Saudi Arabia? So when we pulled our troops out, weren't we making deals with the terrorists?
I do agree with you that we should not pull out of Iraq until they can maintain the situation on their own, but who knows when that will occur.

Off-Topic: Neo-liberalism was first put to use under Reagan after the Washington Consensus, it is often refered to as "Reaganomics" or even "Thatchernomics." The current administration is certainly neo-liberal in many of its international dealings, Dubai Ports World might ring a bell.

I am not sure we pulled out of SA because of Bin Laden or that it was just the right thing to do........Point taken though...........

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

I am not sure we pulled out of SA because of Bin Laden or that it was just the right thing to do........Point taken though...........

In the same sense, we can pull out within two years or less of having a stable Iraq because it's the right thing to do...and if making a public statement to that effect means that that will happen sooner, so be it. That isn't appeasement, as we aren't giving them anything we don't want to give them.

 

[Alastor]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

I'm not a lefty so my answer probably won't shock anyone...

Whether a mistake or not, we're there now. Pulling out as things currently sit would only make what's already a tragedy into a collosal blunder and potentially a holocaust.

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

In the same sense, we can pull out within two years or less of having a stable Iraq because it's the right thing to do...and if making a public statement to that effect means that that will happen sooner, so be it. That isn't appeasement, as we aren't giving them anything we don't want to give them.

No question about it....If the Iraqis and General Casey agree that their military can handle the security we are out of there................

I would not be surprised if we leave a few thousand troops their indefinitely as advisors, etc. as we have done in Germany, Japan, and S. Korea.......

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

I'm not a lefty so my answer probably won't shock anyone...

Whether a mistake or not, we're there now. Pulling out as things currently sit would only make what's already a tragedy into a collosal blunder and potentially a holocaust.

Because you drink the left kool aid and say it ius a tragedy does not make it so.....Some of us think it was the right thing to do and we don't Monday Morning Quarterback.....

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

No question about it....If the Iraqis and General Casey agree that their military can handle the security we are out of there................

Then we should definitely accept this deal. It offers the possibility of ending the insurgency, thereby ensuring that their military can handle the security. And as you said, if we're going to leave as soon as their military can handle security, then agreeing to withdraw after two years would not be a concession to the terrorists since we'd be doing that anyway.

I would not be surprised if we leave a few thousand troops their indefinitely as advisors, etc. as we have done in Germany, Japan, and S. Korea.......

The Germans, Japanese, and Koreans aren't shooting our troops, and don't regard us as devil-worshipping infidels defiling their land with our mere presence.

 

[Deegan]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Then we should definitely accept this deal. It offers the possibility of ending the insurgency, thereby ensuring that their military can handle the security. And as you said, if we're going to leave as soon as their military can handle security, then agreeing to withdraw after two years would not be a concession to the terrorists since we'd be doing that anyway.



The Germans, Japanese, and Koreans aren't shooting our troops, and don't regard us as devil-worshipping infidels defiling their land with our mere presence.

You are forgetting a very important part of all of this, what of our bases there, we don't plan on leaving those, we will continue to protect our interests there. That said, there is no way we can agree to this, not as it's worded, or there will be many problems down the road.

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Question for th eleft: Should we take the deal offered by the insurgents?

Then we should definitely accept this deal. It offers the possibility of ending the insurgency, thereby ensuring that their military can handle the security. And as you said, if we're going to leave as soon as their military can handle security, then agreeing to withdraw after two years would not be a concession to the terrorists since we'd be doing that anyway.



The Germans, Japanese, and Koreans aren't shooting our troops, and don't regard us as devil-worshipping infidels defiling their land with our mere presence.

1. Unlike you I think the terrorists are hurting in Iraq now...They can see the handwriting on the wall and want a ceasefire to regroup.......The day after we left there would be all out civil war with a rejuvenated terrorist organization...........No way do you set a date...

2. I don't think the terrorists will be shooting at our troops in 50 years either.........time will tell who is right.........