Question for anti-iraq war persons.

[SKILMATIC]

LOL. I wonder at times if even YOU believe your own BS.

Another frail attempt. However, keep your theories coming. Its almost on the verge of conspiracy. :rofl

 

[Archon]

Another frail attempt. However, keep your theories coming. Its almost on the verge of conspiracy. :rofl

That's very deep SKilmatic. Thanks for your input.

 

[SKILMATIC]

That's very deep SKilmatic. Thanks for your input.

You see. Now how hard was that to be nice? Your very welcome. :2wave:

 

[mixedmedia]

Ooohhhh..... I am an a$$. That took lots of intelligence didn't it? Well please save me the time because you aren't on my or anyone else's level of intelligence to carry a formidable debate.



Well because women are for the most part drama queens that like to blow things out of proportion. Its a simple fact. Thus, the reason for her whinebaby tactics. Its quite common around that gender and liberal spectrum.

Thank you for supporting my position that Deegan's chain letter was dramatic and blown out of proportion. You really are incredibly dense.

 

[MSgt]

I just got an e-mail from a friend of General Chong, a retired Air Force Surgeon. What he had to say really started to make sense, and it was really eerie how what he predicted was going to happen, seems to exactly what is happening today. He was especially spot on in the area of Muslim dominance in France, and while this letter was written after the elections, you can see how what he predicts is coming to pass.....

This WAR is for REAL!

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United State s is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see
http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels" I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions.

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get. What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims.

If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

SWISH! Couldn't have said it better myself. Chain or no chain, there's a lot of wisdom in this. Far worse than fighting this war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you.

 

[MSgt]

Good, you do that, because as a site representative, I expect more from you then just dismissive, arrogant replies! There are many op-ed pieces posted here, it's just an opinion, if you don't agree, take the time to debate it, it's just not respectful otherwise.

The real reason I posted this, was because of the eerie similarities with what has been going on in France. It's almost as if the future had been predicted, and with the recent riots, I just thought I would share that.

The future and present occurrences have been predicted by Middle Eastern experts and military analysts for the last twenty years. Europe is in serious danger of losing its identity. So many people are sleeping through this. One way or the other everyone will awake to it. The question is when they wake up from their "politically correct" and slothful mentality, will it be too late? In Europe, the French government is still sleeping and passing off their burnings as simple youthful frustrations, while Britian have awoken (thanks to the London bombings). Russia, while reeling from their issues in Checnya, have befriended the most public sponser for Islamic extremism, Iran. In Asia, Indonesia (thanks to the Bali bombings) have been awoken to what they used to appease, while China remains merely "aware" of their extremist issues in the western province of Xinjiang. In Africa, Sudan and so many others awoke to it just to be slaughtered while the sleeping world watched.

The extremists and criminal element of a certain civilization have been waging war against the free world and weaker foes for decades. 9/11 showed us that we can no longer pretend that we can refrain from being a part of it. They are determined to be at war with us no matter how hard we tried to ignore them.

 

[oldreliable67]

Can you blame any foreign nation for not wanting to commit more troops in this mess of Iraq today?

And just exactly which countries were going to jeopardize their Oil-for-Food largesse by going along with the US? Saddam remained convinced right up till we crossed the border that his Security Council sponsorship purchased with Oil-for-Food ill-gotten gains would keep the US at bay. And as far as the Security Council was concerned, he was right.

 

[MSgt]

The previous few posts on this thread are a phenomenal example of subjective rhetoric and bickering. This type of debate doesn't even qualify as debate.... not on any type of scholastic or respectable level. It's funny... and I don't like to pointing fingers... but it seems like Skilmatic likes to wreak havoc more so than progress. Maybe that's just my perception. I tend to think that skilmatic is a dissident of civility. He really brings out the worst in people and I'd be lying if I stated that it was unintentional.

On the contrary, I have had a good time reading the back-and-forth banter between the two. It is entertaining. 'mixedmedia' is a very strong willed gal that does not back down. 'SKILMATIC' is one of those types of guys that if you bring a knife to a fight, he will pull out a tank. Right now, they are simply jabbing each other. They are both formiddable debaters.

I might add that after you brought up "The previous few posts on this thread are a phenomenal example of subjective rhetoric and bickering".....you commenced to add to it by posting two more times thus adding to the "bickering."

Like I said...entertaining.

 

[Crispy]

Continued.......

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State s, but throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide, that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world.

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our "leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too.

There are those that find fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this, that we must UNITE!

Right on Deeg. This is the message that needs to be spread dude.

 

[mixedmedia]

On the contrary, I have had a good time reading the back-and-forth banter between the two. It is entertaining. 'mixedmedia' is a very strong willed gal that does not back down. 'SKILMATIC' is one of those types of guys that if you bring a knife to a fight, he will pull out a tank. Right now, they are simply jabbing each other. They are both formiddable debaters.

I might add that after you brought up "The previous few posts on this thread are a phenomenal example of subjective rhetoric and bickering".....you commenced to add to it by posting two more times thus adding to the "bickering."

Like I said...entertaining.

Somehow, being called a strong-willed gal by you, GySgt, is very gratifying. Grazie.

**taking off my gloves and going back to my knitting**

 

[SKILMATIC]

On the contrary, I have had a good time reading the back-and-forth banter between the two. It is entertaining. 'mixedmedia' is a very strong willed gal that does not back down. 'SKILMATIC' is one of those types of guys that if you bring a knife to a fight, he will pull out a tank. Right now, they are simply jabbing each other. They are both formiddable debaters.

I might add that after you brought up "The previous few posts on this thread are a phenomenal example of subjective rhetoric and bickering".....you commenced to add to it by posting two more times thus adding to the "bickering."

Like I said...entertaining.

Its amazing how you got the point and archon did not. And its also amazing that he had the same assessment of mixedmedia as I have. I guess the strong will comes from givng birth and raising kids I suppose.

Even though I jab I have enough sense to know the commonalities. Raising a child in this world diligently takes lots of strong will and back bone(but did you have to raise her liberal?). :lol:

 

[mixedmedia]

Its amazing how you got the point and archon did not. And its also amazing that he had the same assessment of mixedmedia as I have. I guess the strong will comes from givng birth and raising kids I suppose.

Even though I jab I have enough sense to know the commonalities. Raising a child in this world diligently takes lots of strong will and back bone(but did you have to raise her liberal?). :lol:

I have no idea what your assessment of me is, Skilmatic. I have yet to decipher your mode de communique.

I was raised liberal by my parents. Courageous and principled they were to reject the racism of the segregated south they were raised in and taught to accept by their parents. Thus a liberal is born, Skilmatic. Your glee at rejecting liberalism as a form of thought inherently wrong and misguided is small-minded. I think I do pretty well around here to take it in stride from folks on the forum who specialize in liberal-bashing. The one good thing about it is that it has taught me not to react so quickly and harshly to what I see as apparently prejudiced, closed-minded, reactionary, etc. And, oh boy, I used to!

Fact is, Skilmatic, unlike others here, I think you have it in you to break away from small-minded thinking patterns and adjudge people less harshly on stereotypical political terms. I have found myself that if I resist the temptation of knee-jerk assumptions and keep my mind open to everyone's viewpoint, I come up with a worldview that is uniquely mine - and flexible - and friendly. It feels good.

 

[SKILMATIC]

I have no idea what your assessment of me is, Skilmatic. I have yet to decipher your mode de communique.

I was raised liberal by my parents. Courageous and principled they were to reject the racism of the segregated south they were raised in and taught to accept by their parents. Thus a liberal is born, Skilmatic. Your glee at rejecting liberalism as a form of thought inherently wrong and misguided is small-minded. I think I do pretty well around here to take it in stride from folks on the forum who specialize in liberal-bashing. The one good thing about it is that it has taught me not to react so quickly and harshly to what I see as apparently prejudiced, closed-minded, reactionary, etc. And, oh boy, I used to!

Fact is, Skilmatic, unlike others here, I think you have it in you to break away from small-minded thinking patterns and adjudge people less harshly on stereotypical political terms. I have found myself that if I resist the temptation of knee-jerk assumptions and keep my mind open to everyone's viewpoint, I come up with a worldview that is uniquely mine - and flexible - and friendly. It feels good.

BWHAHAHA. Well I understand where you are coming from in like my earlier post as I said the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. However, liberals werent the only ones who didnt agree with slavery. Although I do admit that I hold some liberal values they are very small in comparison.

And to your last paragraph. I totally understand that viewpoint and I respect it. And I do agree with you that it is the only true way to having a formidable debate. In the regards to small minded thinking patterns I am very small minded when it comes to protecting this nation from our 5th column. And in that regards I dont care how small minded or extreme I may seem from the liberal side.

Liberals have made it to a point to constsntly attack this nation and its foundations. They for some reason hold the ACLU and the NAACP to a holier than though pedastool and I will make sure that they will not prevail.

The thing that liberals need to understand and remember is that if it wasnt for this country they wouldn't be able to express their idiotic views. And it is in their idiocy that brings down this country hence the term it is a mental disorder.

However, I hope you arent like typical liberals.
I hope you have enough sense to know that this country is your greatest ally and that you have the strong willed ideologies to carry that sense out.

 

[mixedmedia]

Never mind.

 

[Locke006]

Whether you agree with the original decision to enter Iraq and regardless of the accof our intelligence We are there. If we leave we will create a power vacume. that Vacum will be filled with the insurgent terrorist we are currently fighting. They will form an anti-American government that will cause many problems for us later on. Also it would send the message that they succeeded. The war has definately become an unpopular one but it is one we can't get out of. Unlike Vietnam their hatred is not focused on the idea of foriegn oppressors in general it is of the US. We need to stay and insure that there is a stable democratic government. Democracies promote peace.