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Question for anti-iraq war persons.

What should the US do in Iraq?

  • Get out now - just leave.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wait till the final government is in place, and the Iraq forces can stand alone.

    Votes: 16 53.3%
  • Wait only till Iraq forces can stand alone.

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Make an orderly but deliberate withdrawal over a period of a few months.

    Votes: 5 16.7%
  • Now that we're there, stay till Iraq is firmly established as a democracy.

    Votes: 3 10.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 3.3%

  • Total voters
    30

alphamale

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I know that many of you believe that the U.S. got into this via illegitimate means, but how about now? What should the U.S. do now that we're into it? Please give me an answer that is focused on the practical, on what to do now to retrieve the most good, or the least harm, from the situation. Please don't focus on the ideological, and take into consideration and include the aftermath when the U.S, leaves.
 
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mixedmedia

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alphamale said:
I know that many of you believe that the U.S. got into this via illegitimate means, but how about now? What should the U.S. do now that we're into it? Please give me an answer that is focused on the practical, on what to do now to retrieve the most good, or the least harm, from the situation. Please don't focus on the ideological, and take into consideration and include the aftermath when the U.S, leaves.
I did not agree with this war from the outset, but now that we are there, I think we need to stay militarily until the Iraqi military is capable of keeping the people safe and the borders & infrastructure secure. For however long it takes. We also need to maintain an economic and business mentorship with Iraq to build social & financial stability without attempting to gain from or monopolize their growth. Perhaps it will be very costly to America in many ways, but the thoughts of 1) walking away from this country while it is steeped in chaos & 2) gaining from its reconstruction are just about as disturbing as the precipitation of the war itself.

What's more, we need to not forget about Afghanistan. They, in all probability will need more long term care and assistance than Iraq. They need our attention and our patience.

There's no turning back now. Not for Iraq or Afghanistan, nor for us. Regardless of how you feel about the war, it is only common sense to realize that America's future has now become intrinsically tied to the outcomes in these two countries.
 

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alphamale said:
I know that many of you believe that the U.S. got into this via illegitimate means, but how about now? What should the U.S. do now that we're into it? Please give me an answer that is focused on the practical, on what to do now to retrieve the most good, or the least harm, from the situation. Please don't focus on the ideological, and take into consideration and include the aftermath when the U.S, leaves.
How does the aftermath of what happens when we leave have anything to do with sincerely supporting OUR troops? We've already blown the place to hell and killed thousands of innocents. But you don't want to go near the quesiton "why" do you? If I were you I wouldn't either.

The only end to this conflict in immediate terms would be to hand control of the region over to the UN or NATO... but they are unwilling to clean up after us and I can't blame them. So we're stuck there.... our troops.. innocent people dying. However you want to avoid the question WHY.

We need a centrist administration in '08. That is our only hope of escaping this conflict. The bush administration cannot even give our troops the armor they need let alone provide any resolute course of action. The administration is fighting this war with domestic lip service... mass media... public relations. The Bush administration is doing nothing to support our troops abroad nor bring them home.

If supporting the troops was so simple as claiming that you support the troops... well wouldn't that just be dandy.

Either you support Bush or you support our troops. It's impossible to do Both.
 

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Archon said:
How does the aftermath of what happens when we leave have anything to do with sincerely supporting OUR troops? We've already blown the place to hell and killed thousands of innocents. But you don't want to go near the quesiton "why" do you? If I were you I wouldn't either.

The only end to this conflict in immediate terms would be to hand control of the region over to the UN or NATO... but they are unwilling to clean up after us and I can't blame them. So we're stuck there.... our troops.. innocent people dying. However you want to avoid the question WHY.

We need a centrist administration in '08. That is our only hope of escaping this conflict. The bush administration cannot even give our troops the armor they need let alone provide any resolute course of action. The administration is fighting this war with domestic lip service... mass media... public relations. The Bush administration is doing nothing to support our troops abroad nor bring them home.

If supporting the troops was so simple as claiming that you support the troops... well wouldn't that just be dandy.

Either you support Bush or you support our troops. It's impossible to do Both.
Really? Killed thousands of innocents you say? Can you please substantiate those claims? Weve blown the place to bits have we? I wonder who also built it back up again? Hmmm.... I know it wasn't your dear friends the French.

No one avoids the question why. Heres a question for you. Why did 9/11 happen? Ohhh shall we ponder over this? How about this intriguing question, how come you washed out of the air force as an officer? Ohhh but wait we dont want to go there do we? No we can't possibly go there. That would just be heart wrenching wouldn't it?

Now to the support our troops discussion. Let me ask you this Mr. Archon. Why did you leave the force when they needed you in a time of action? Sounds alot like deserter to me instead of supporter. You proclomate infedelity within the Bush admin towards our military yet you yourself left them hanging out to dry when they needed you. That also sounds alot like a hypocrite doesn't it? Ohh but wait, you dont want to go there do you?

I guess your rebuttal will be something like "oh I just didn't agree with what was going on." Or how about this one "People in the military are just pawns to make money for the gov thats why I just had to leave." Or an all too favorite one, "I fell in love." :rofl

Oh well whatever your rebuttal I am sure it will be interesting. ;)
 

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SKILMATIC said:
Really? Killed thousands of innocents you say? Can you please substantiate those claims? Weve blown the place to bits have we? I wonder who also built it back up again? Hmmm.... I know it wasn't your dear friends the French.

No one avoids the question why. Heres a question for you. Why did 9/11 happen? Ohhh shall we ponder over this? How about this intriguing question, how come you washed out of the air force as an officer? Ohhh but wait we dont want to go there do we? No we can't possibly go there. That would just be heart wrenching wouldn't it?

Now to the support our troops discussion. Let me ask you this Mr. Archon. Why did you leave the force when they needed you in a time of action? Sounds alot like deserter to me instead of supporter. You proclomate infedelity within the Bush admin towards our military yet you yourself left them hanging out to dry when they needed you. That also sounds alot like a hypocrite doesn't it? Ohh but wait, you dont want to go there do you?

I guess your rebuttal will be something like "oh I just didn't agree with what was going on." Or how about this one "People in the military are just pawns to make money for the gov thats why I just had to leave." Or an all too favorite one, "I fell in love." :rofl

Oh well whatever your rebuttal I am sure it will be interesting. ;)
Skilmatic I'm always flattered that you have so much time to follow me around, proactively defame me, and never state anything to refute my concerns but only offer instigation in the hope that you will get a rise out of me. There is a serious difference between you and I, dear boy. I'm a concerned constituent regardless of my history. You are a vengeful sociopath. :lol:

I'm thinking of creating a fan club and making you my honorary member. We all need a good laugh sometimes.
 
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SKILMATIC

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Archon said:
Skilmatic I'm always flattered that you have so much time to follow me around, proactively defame me, and never state anything to refute my concerns but only offer instigation in the hope that you will get a rise out of me. There is a serious difference between you and I, dear boy. I'm a concerned consituent regardless of my history. You are a vengeful sociopath. :lol:

I'm thinking of creating a fan club and making you my honorary member. We all need a good laugh sometimes.
Well you know I will continue to do so when I receive an answer to just one of my very easy questions. However, we keep going on this round roller coaster seeing the same thing every time experiencing 1 g of gravitational force. :lol:

However, lets diegress. Lets level with ourselves here. All BS aside. Why would an air force officer not know that quaternions can be expressed in a linear fashion which makes them algebraic? Also that you didnt know that GRAVITATIONAL FORCE IS THE SAME AS GRAVITATIONAL PULL. Now how come you did not know that and furthermore how does that help in the credibility department that you were really an officer in the air force?

I mean I am not trying to be maliscious here. I am asking a serious question that needs to be addressed. You do see why its hard for me along with many other people to take you serious after the lack of knowledge you have already proclaimed, right?

Now in my part I do admit I have a spelling problem. However, thats not due to me not knowing how words are spelled its due to a typing problem with the apathy to hit the spell check button.
 

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SKILMATIC said:
Well you know I will continue to do so when I receive an answer to just one of my very easy questions. However, we keep going on this round roller coaster seeing the same thing every time experiencing 1 g of gravitational force. :lol:

However, lets diegress. Lets level with ourselves here. All BS aside. Why would an air force officer not know that quaternions can be expressed in a linear fashion which makes them algebraic? Also that you didnt know that GRAVITATIONAL FORCE IS THE SAME AS GRAVITATIONAL PULL. Now how come you did not know that and furthermore how does that help in the credibility department that you were really an officer in the air force?

I mean I am not trying to be maliscious here. I am asking a serious question that needs to be addressed. You do see why its hard for me along with many other people to take you serious after the lack of knowledge you have already proclaimed, right?

Now in my part I do admit I have a spelling problem. However, thats not due to me not knowing how words are spelled its due to a typing problem with the apathy to hit the spell check button.
I know that gravititationl pull and force are similar (virtually.. they are different but yet the same in equilibrium). You referred to it as g-pull. LOL. Also you tried to compare the virtue of experiencing 9 lateral Gs in a drag car for a split second to experiencing 9 positive Gs in an f16 for several seconds.

As far as quaternion equations are involved they differ greatly from traditional algebraic equations such as vectors or tensors. There is an imaginary or "exponential" component that allows for non-linear spatial rotation that otherwise cannot be achieved. (in laymens terms without the benefit of doubt of your intention).
 
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alphamale said:
I know that many of you believe that the U.S. got into this via illegitimate means, but how about now? What should the U.S. do now that we're into it? Please give me an answer that is focused on the practical, on what to do now to retrieve the most good, or the least harm, from the situation. Please don't focus on the ideological, and take into consideration and include the aftermath when the U.S, leaves.
Let's first decide not to go any further. There was talk from the White House a few weeks ago about bombing villages 30 to 40 miles inside Syria because there might have been insurgents there. Let's stay away from there. Also, no bombing of Iran. They hate us and Israel, and their vicious new hothead leader puts an exclamation point on it, but an enemy like that is easy - you know right where they stand. Don't worry about their planned nuclear plants. Just before they go online, Israel makes them rubble.

Next, we've got to find out why Congress was told last year that there were three Iraqi brigades ready to fight on their own, and this year, they were told there is only one. At this rate, next year we will owe them two. Seriously, though, until they have viable military forces, we can't leave.

I'm no military planner, obviously, but we have to train enough Iraqi troops to replace us as we leave, and there has to be a dependable police force in place. Will the different religious sects be able to cooperate with each other? If civil war breaks out, thankfully it hasn't yet, we'll be set back significantly.

It would be a breakthrough if we could get help from other Arabic countries in the region. Better border control, some strategic help with hunting insurgents, and general cooperation.
 

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Archon said:
I know that gravititationl pull and force are similar (virtually.. they are different but yet the same in equilibrium). You referred to it as g-pull. LOL. Also you tried to compare the virtue of experiencing 9 lateral Gs in a drag car for a split second to experiencing 9 positive Gs in an f16 for several seconds.

As far as quaternion equations are involved they differ greatly from traditional algebraic equations such as vectors or tensors. There is an imaginary or "exponential" component that allows for non-linear spatial rotation that otherwise cannot be achieved. (in laymens terms without the benefit of doubt of your intention).
OK, now were getting somewhere. now in a drag sense a 9g force is a 9g force. Now granted in an F16 it is much longer in time length, however if someone can withstand a 9g's then they can certainly withstand the forces in a F16 cockpit(even though they are more lengthy). If you dont think so then you are looking at a prime example. :2wave:

Ok then why did you tell me before that quaternions were in no way algebraic? This sparks me as a little confusing. Why now do you change your story. Which btw, now you are on the right track but before you weren't.

O btw, I am suprised you didnt mention octonions9specifically in the form of matrices) as another way of measuring gravity and its forces.
 

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SKILMATIC said:
OK, now were getting somewhere. now in a drag sense a 9g force is a 9g force. Now granted in an F16 it is much longer in time length, however if someone can withstand a 9g's then they can certainly withstand the forces in a F16 cockpit(even though they are more lengthy). If you dont think so then you are looking at a prime example. :2wave:

Ok then why did you tell me before that quaternions were in no way algebraic? This sparks me as a little confusing. Why now do you change your story. Which btw, now you are on the right track but before you weren't.

O btw, I am suprised you didnt mention octonions9specifically in the form of matrices) as another way of measuring gravity and its forces.
There is no need to play games. I've explained my position eloquently. I've told you before that I am not here to educate you. Don't take that as condescending but rather as fact. Good night, i'm signing off. I'm sure i'll see you later. ;)
 

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Archon said:
There is no need to play games. I've explained my position eloquently. I've told you before that I am not here to educate you. Don't take that as condescending but rather as fact. Good night, i'm signing off. I'm sure i'll see you later. ;)
Well I didnt come to learn anything from you; I came to ask you why you didnt know these things as a former air force officer? But good night. :2wave:

And you wil see me. ;)
 

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Archon said:
How does the aftermath of what happens when we leave have anything to do with sincerely supporting OUR troops? We've already blown the place to hell and killed thousands of innocents. But you don't want to go near the quesiton "why" do you? If I were you I wouldn't either.

The only end to this conflict in immediate terms would be to hand control of the region over to the UN or NATO... but they are unwilling to clean up after us and I can't blame them. So we're stuck there.... our troops.. innocent people dying. However you want to avoid the question WHY.

We need a centrist administration in '08. That is our only hope of escaping this conflict. The bush administration cannot even give our troops the armor they need let alone provide any resolute course of action. The administration is fighting this war with domestic lip service... mass media... public relations. The Bush administration is doing nothing to support our troops abroad nor bring them home.

If supporting the troops was so simple as claiming that you support the troops... well wouldn't that just be dandy.

Either you support Bush or you support our troops. It's impossible to do Both.
"Why" has been given. Sadly, some are too stupid to see "why." Others simply don't care "why," because it allows them their bashing campaign. Still there are other that serve or served on the comfortable side of our military and are just plain ignorant and don't understand what terrorism is, much less the civilization from where they come. (Incidentally, these would be the same individuals that unless nuclear warheads are found, they don't see a threat.) I call this obtuse.

Under President Bush, we saw better boots (God send), new weapons, updated weapons, better uniforms, better flak Jackets with bullet proof SAPI plates (something we have never had before), updated equipment to match our technology, The regular force has been issued weaponry and gear that reflects our special forces, our ancient helicopters have been updated finally, the Osprey was kicked into over drive to take the place of our 'Vietnam vintage' helicopters, Our Humvees have been made stronger, UpArmor has been created for our humvees (although, bad for the axles), armored doors (though many of us remove them at times, because they are obstructive) etc.,....the list goes on. Because of tax breaks and the raise of pay in the war zone (which includes Kuwait, though don't agree with it), we feel like we are being rewarded personally for our efforts and through this money, we are able to create and pick up our lives easier after combat.

There is a plethora of support we have gotten under President Bush. No time in history has the military felt so appreciated in such a short period of time. While I'm sure you could remind me of something we got from the Clinton administration, I remember drastic cutbacks and barely enough money to train and repair broken gear. Our great stock pile of money after Clinton was finished doing good things for our economy came with a price. Memories also take me back to Marine deaths in Embassies in Africa and a U.S. Naval ship being attacked where we did nothing in retaliation. Our Democratic representation didn't seem to care and neither did our people. Sadly, many Americans didn't even realize. These attacks were just headlines mixed in with their local news. The President's polls remained high, so that showed us exactly what we were worth to our people. Now you use us as helpless "victims" of American imperialism of a President you don't like. Nothing more.

This is the sort of thing that civilians do not hear about. Not because they generally don't care, but because civilians tend to be fickle about when they show care. Also...the media is not concerned with such things. "Soldier flushes Koran" sells more papers.

Now, let's hear from your vast knowledge of what you have pretended to know about. What "armor" do we need? What "resolute course of action" do we not know? Let's hear what you know, compared to what you think you know based on heresay and bandwagon BS. Remember, just because you are selectively clueless, it does not mean that your military is. You obviously have no idea of your military, yet "you care."
 
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mixedmedia

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GySgt said:
What "resolute course of action" do we not know?
What "resolute course of action" has the Bush administration made us privy to? Keeping in mind that you have acknowledged before the disparity between our purported reasons for going to war, the State of the Union reasons, and the real reason we are in Iraq. The least you can do is admit there is an information vacuum created by the White House to avoid admitting why we are there. Thus the lies, both real and apparent, that have been told to the American people. Thus the intellectual lack most Americans have regarding our reasons for going to war. You can't have it both ways, GySgt.
 

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SKILMATIC said:
OK, now were getting somewhere. now in a drag sense a 9g force is a 9g force. Now granted in an F16 it is much longer in time length, however if someone can withstand a 9g's then they can certainly withstand the forces in a F16 cockpit(even though they are more lengthy). If you dont think so then you are looking at a prime example. :2wave:

Hmm, I would think that the longer you were under 9g's of force the more harm/discomfort/etc. it would cause you. Seems to make sense.
 

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Archon said:
How does the aftermath of what happens when we leave have anything to do with sincerely supporting OUR troops? We've already blown the place to hell and killed thousands of innocents. But you don't want to go near the quesiton "why" do you? If I were you I wouldn't either.

The only end to this conflict in immediate terms would be to hand control of the region over to the UN or NATO... but they are unwilling to clean up after us and I can't blame them. So we're stuck there.... our troops.. innocent people dying. However you want to avoid the question WHY.

We need a centrist administration in '08. That is our only hope of escaping this conflict. The bush administration cannot even give our troops the armor they need let alone provide any resolute course of action. The administration is fighting this war with domestic lip service... mass media... public relations. The Bush administration is doing nothing to support our troops abroad nor bring them home.

If supporting the troops was so simple as claiming that you support the troops... well wouldn't that just be dandy.

Either you support Bush or you support our troops. It's impossible to do Both.

So your brilliant idea is to hand it over to the UN? The most inept organization on the globe. Sounds like a screaming liberal to me. Lets give it to someone else so we don't have to back anything we do up.

I think if your worried about killing innocents you may want to look at the terrorist that are targeting them. And targeting them all over the world. But it seems your real agenda is to stomp on the President.

Is there a strategy set forth that I don't know about by the dems? An exit strategy? a foreign policy strategy? ANYTHING? A strategy for dealing with terrorist... Other then allowing them free and unfettered access to the country. Have a friggin plan, have something other then complain that others don't. The other side of the coin does ABSOLUTELY nothing but complain.

Your definition of support in this all volunteer military is amusing. I'm just curious exactly how far to the side you go? Are you all the way out with stupid people and Howard Dean, or just slightly closer with Cindy?

Support the troops, Support their mission.
 

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mixedmedia said:
What "resolute course of action" has the Bush administration made us privy to? Keeping in mind that you have acknowledged before the disparity between our purported reasons for going to war, the State of the Union reasons, and the real reason we are in Iraq. The least you can do is admit there is an information vacuum created by the White House to avoid admitting why we are there. Thus the lies, both real and apparent, that have been told to the American people. Thus the intellectual lack most Americans have regarding our reasons for going to war. You can't have it both ways, GySgt.
Of course, they have avoided the issues to the international public. It didn't surprise me at the time and it still does not. No President has ever condemned (publicly) the Arab oppression that runs throughout the Middle East and it's product. It would not be in any American's interests or the countries well being, for any President to stand in front of an internationally broadcasted airing and declare all that is wrong with this civilization and how the result of our looking away for our oil has aided this civilizations failures. It would further be a huge mistake to declare the Arab elite as the true culprit of why Islamic extremism is so tasteful to so many of the futureless youth and that they are why the Muslim world hates the west and Israel. It would be an even bigger mistake to tell the world that the blasphemous version of Islam, which is not practiced outside of the Middle East but is spreading, is not what the Prophet Muhammed preached. One also could not tell the Arab world that their governments are the one's that has oppressed them and they have used said religion to do it, while using the western world as a scapegoat. There is no way to say these things in a way that will not anger the Muslim world, infuriate the Middle East, or encourage support for dealing with it. The general american does not and will not understand the menatility of this region and are very much only interested in how many Nukes a person has. I believe that is why WMD was hammered the way it was. Keep in mind that in the mean time, we receive a substantial amount of oil from these bastards which affect our lifestyles and interests. Either way, we had to topple Saddam. He was one symptom among the many.

The course of action is to continue to support this democracy in Iraq, continue to support the democracy in Afghanistan, and deal with issues as they arise. After Iraq, there will undoubtadly be a lull, but this war will continue eventually. We have entered a new age of attrition warfare in two kinds: First, the war against religious terrorism is unquestionably a war of attrition - if one of your enemies is left alive or unimprisoned, he will continue trying to kill you and destroy your civilization. The extremists will not simply give up on their religion. Second, Operation Iraqi Freedom, for all its dashing maneuvers, provided a new example of a postmodern war of attrition—one in which the casualties are overwhelmingly on one side. The largely ignored U.S. military have been warning our government of this certain inevitable future since the Reagan era. No single attack in any Muslim country will end terrorism on the scale that this world has gotten used to. It will take a culmination of attacks, defenses, democracy building, aggressive diplomacy, encouraging the free flow of information, freedom of education, and coup supporting for some time. Your grandchildren may see the end of this. Our fight is with the few, but our struggle must be with the many.

Why does it seem that when I start writing, I can go on forever? This is why I am having trouble with other writing projects.
 
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The Mark said:
Hmm, I would think that the longer you were under 9g's of force the more harm/discomfort/etc. it would cause you. Seems to make sense.
This is true.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
So your brilliant idea is to hand it over to the UN? The most inept organization on the globe. Sounds like a screaming liberal to me. Lets give it to someone else so we don't have to back anything we do up.

I think if your worried about killing innocents you may want to look at the terrorist that are targeting them. And targeting them all over the world. But it seems your real agenda is to stomp on the President.

Is there a strategy set forth that I don't know about by the dems? An exit strategy? a foreign policy strategy? ANYTHING? A strategy for dealing with terrorist... Other then allowing them free and unfettered access to the country. Have a friggin plan, have something other then complain that others don't. The other side of the coin does ABSOLUTELY nothing but complain.

Your definition of support in this all volunteer military is amusing. I'm just curious exactly how far to the side you go? Are you all the way out with stupid people and Howard Dean, or just slightly closer with Cindy?

Support the troops, Support their mission.
Very brilliantly said. Keep up the common sense. And of course Gunny is flawless as usual. I think we can get these people on the right track with posts like these.
 

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SKILMATIC said:
Very brilliantly said. Keep up the common sense. And of course Gunny is flawless as usual. I think we can get these people on the right track with posts like these.

I think I'm going to be sick. Keep your delusions of intellectual grandeur to yourself. Calm2Chaos offered nothing more in his post than the standard exclusionary "liberals are stupid" goobledy-gook. Get a freakin' clue, kid.

In the meantime, "these people" will continue to think for ourselves.

Here's a valuable universal truth, Skilmatic: The world hates an ass kisser.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Is there a strategy set forth that I don't know about by the dems? An exit strategy?
Is this the new Republican spin strategy? Bush has failed miserably, so shift the attention away from Bush and continue to harp on the message of Dems don't have a plan? This is bogus right wing spin.

I'm not in total agreement that this idea would work, but during the last election, Kerry outlined a plan to get more foreign nations involved in troop support in Iraq. As it stands today, U.S. forces comprise apprx 88% of the troops in Iraq. There is no reason why the U.S. should be shouldering an overwhelming majority of troop strength in Iraq. The only answer as to why we find ourselves in this position is because of poor leadership in the White House.

Can you blame any foreign nation for not wanting to commit more troops in this mess of Iraq today? We should've had a committment of support from foreign nations before getting into this mess, as it stands now, it's probably too late.
 

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Hoot said:
Is this the new Republican spin strategy? Bush has failed miserably, so shift the attention away from Bush and continue to harp on the message of Dems don't have a plan? This is bogus right wing spin.

I'm not in total agreement that this idea would work, but during the last election, Kerry outlined a plan to get more foreign nations involved in troop support in Iraq. As it stands today, U.S. forces comprise apprx 88% of the troops in Iraq. There is no reason why the U.S. should be shouldering an overwhelming majority of troop strength in Iraq. The only answer as to why we find ourselves in this position is because of poor leadership in the White House.

Can you blame any foreign nation for not wanting to commit more troops in this mess of Iraq today? We should've had a committment of support from foreign nations before getting into this mess, as it stands now, it's probably too late.

Foreign nations are used to us doing all the work and leading the charge. I wouldn't count on them for anything - no matter who the President is. Want proof? The UN has announced Sudan as a nation in need of help. Last I checked, America is only one country in the UN. Where's the action? Where is the other 99 percent of the UN?

Also, if you'll remember, we weren't the only ones there in the beginning. The ones that bailed on us did so in accordance to terrorist demands after hostage taking. Incidentally, the terrorists know this about those nations now. You can gaurantee that the next time one of these nations are involved with this "war on terror," their citizens will be a terrorist target.
 

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mixedmedia said:
I think I'm going to be sick. Keep your delusions of intellectual grandeur to yourself. Calm2Chaos offered nothing more in his post than the standard exclusionary "liberals are stupid" goobledy-gook. Get a freakin' clue, kid.

In the meantime, "these people" will continue to think for ourselves.

Here's a valuable universal truth, Skilmatic: The world hates an ass kisser.
BWAHAHA. Actually they bring more truths in one post than you could possibly bring in a lifetime. However, keep thinking your "standard exclusionary intellectual grandeur rampage." The world hates a mental case. :lol:
 

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GySgt said:
Of course, they have avoided the issues to the international public. It didn't surprise me at the time and it still does not. No President has ever condemned (publicly) the Arab oppression that runs throughout the Middle East and it's product. It would not be in any American's interests or the countries well being, for any President to stand in front of an internationally broadcasted airing and declare all that is wrong with this civilization and how the result of our looking away for our oil has aided this civilizations failures. It would further be a huge mistake to declare the Arab elite as the true culprit of why Islamic extremism is so tasteful to so many of the futureless youth and that they are why the Muslim world hates the west and Israel. It would be an even bigger mistake to tell the world that the blasphemous version of Islam, which is not practiced outside of the Middle East but is spreading, is not what the Prophet Muhammed preached. One also could not tell the Arab world that their governments are the one's that has oppressed them and they have used said religion to do it, while using the western world as a scapegoat. There is no way to say these things in a way that will not anger the Muslim world, infuriate the Middle East, or encourage support for dealing with it. The general american does not and will not understand the menatility of this region and are very much only interested in how many Nukes a person has. I believe that is why WMD was hammered the way it was. Keep in mind that in the mean time, we receive a substantial amount of oil from these bastards which affect our lifestyles and interests. Either way, we had to topple Saddam. He was one symptom among the many.
This may be the accepted consensus, but I don't know, I think people are a constant wonder. I am tempted to believe that some of these truths would be much more acceptable, both here in America and, most significantly, in the ME than you may think. I don't understand your assumption that we can successfully take on a project like remaking the middle east based on lies and pretense. How are we to gain trust - through brute force? Good luck. Sooner or later, America will be forced either by international pressure or economic necessity to come clean and open this endeavor up to international scrutiny. At that time, we will unfortunately have to spend much time explaining ourselves - time that could have been devoted to more productive pursuits.

The course of action is to continue to support this democracy in Iraq, continue to support the democracy in Afghanistan, and deal with issues as they arise. After Iraq, there will undoubtadly be a lull, but this war will continue eventually. We have entered a new age of attrition warfare in two kinds: First, the war against religious terrorism is unquestionably a war of attrition - if one of your enemies is left alive or unimprisoned, he will continue trying to kill you and destroy your civilization. The extremists will not simply give up on their religion. Second, Operation Iraqi Freedom, for all its dashing maneuvers, provided a new example of a postmodern war of attrition—one in which the casualties are overwhelmingly on one side. The largely ignored U.S. military have been warning our government of this certain inevitable future since the Reagan era. No single attack in any Muslim country will end terrorism on the scale that this world has gotten used to. It will take a culmination of attacks, defenses, democracy building, aggressive diplomacy, encouraging the free flow of information, freedom of education, and coup supporting for some time. Your grandchildren may see the end of this. Our fight is with the few, but our struggle must be with the many.
I am still dealing psychically with this war. So I will sidestep speculating about any further wars - but all of your other suggestions I am a whole-hearted supporter of. And, in fact, I believe concentrating our primary efforts on nurturing democratic ideals in the middle east could make a substantial difference in the amount of violent conflict needed to jumpstart this movement. Yes, our fight is with the few and we should save it for the few as much as we can. If the everyday people start to see hope for a more free and prosperous future for their children, well, I tend to think the momentum behind that realization will go very far towards making this a struggle of the people who live in the Muslim world. And with the eyes of the world upon them, the establishment in the middle east will have very little leverage to engage in business as usual. There is no stopping the evolution of human freedoms when it is time. History has proven this again and again.

Why does it seem that when I start writing, I can go on forever? This is why I am having trouble with other writing projects.
Because you like it? :mrgreen:
 

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mixedmedia said:
I am still dealing psychically with this war. So I will sidestep speculating about any further wars - but all of your other suggestions I am a whole-hearted supporter of. And, in fact, I believe concentrating our primary efforts on nurturing democratic ideals in the middle east could make a substantial difference in the amount of violent conflict needed to jumpstart this movement. Yes, our fight is with the few and we should save it for the few as much as we can. If the everyday people start to see hope for a more free and prosperous future for their children, well, I tend to think the momentum behind that realization will go very far towards making this a struggle of the people who live in the Muslim world. And with the eyes of the world upon them, the establishment in the middle east will have very little leverage to engage in business as usual. There is no stopping the evolution of human freedoms when it is time. History has proven this again and again.
Very insightful. This will take time and will cost. In the end, our security is the goal.
mixedmedia said:
Because you like it? :mrgreen:
You actually have no idea how much I do, although, I think you probably have an idea. This site gives me ideas.
 

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SKILMATIC said:
BWAHAHA. Actually they bring more truths in one post than you could possibly bring in a lifetime. However, keep thinking your "standard exclusionary intellectual grandeur rampage." The world hates a mental case. :lol:
Bringin' truths, eh? You are so silly. What a hoot! Truth is, sweetie pie, my 14 year old daughter could mop the floor with both you and Calm2Chaos when it comes to the art of reasoned debate. Pucker up, babydoll.
 
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