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Question about the Libby case

dottedmint

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I have a question about the Libby case and I am not sure if anyone in here can actually answer it.

What exactly was Libby found guilty of?

Not....the actual "crime". perjury, obstruction, etc.

I am curious if anyone has seen anywhere what specifically Libby said under oath that wasn't true.

Can anyone quote his statements and place them next to what was true?

I hope my request is clear enough.....
 
I have a question about the Libby case and I am not sure if anyone in here can actually answer it.

What exactly was Libby found guilty of?

Not....the actual "crime". perjury, obstruction, etc.

I am curious if anyone has seen anywhere what specifically Libby said under oath that wasn't true.

Can anyone quote his statements and place them next to what was true?

I hope my request is clear enough.....

That's the sixty-four dollar question. No evidence was presented that he willfully lied and did so for the purpose of obstructing justice and no one has been able to point to that specific evicdence. It was conjecture based on the faulty memories of others.
 
That's the sixty-four dollar question. No evidence was presented that he willfully lied and did so for the purpose of obstructing justice and no one has been able to point to that specific evicdence. It was conjecture based on the faulty memories of others.

Yet, somehow, it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he lied. Go figure.

Maybe Libby should have enlisted Stinger instead of a hot-shot defense attorney like Mr Wells. Obviously, Mr Wells didn't have the same grasp of the case that Stinger does. Otherwise, how could all of the jurors determine that it was beyond reasonable doubt that Libby had lied - not forgotten. I wonder if that means only UNreasonable doubts remain?

It's all laid out quite plainly [plainly enough if you're willing to see it] in the indictment.


http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_indictment_28102005.pdf



Basically, Libby had a bunch of meetings with govt officials [about two a week for a month] where he discussed Plame/Wilson etc. But he told investigators that he learned about Plame subsequent to these meetings from reporters instead of from the govt officials [including the VP].

So, not only did he "forget" who had told him, he says he "forgot" he knew at all despite the plethora of meetings and faxes etc.



It's also worth noting that:
"...Mr. Novak was not the first reporter to be told that Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, Ambassador Wilson's wife, Valerie, worked at the CIA. Several other reporters were told. In fact, Mr. Libby was the first official known to have told a reporter when he talked with Judith Miller in June of 2003 about Valerie Wilson."
 
Yet, somehow, it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he lied. Go figure.

Listen to what they have said and then go figger.

Maybe Libby should have enlisted Stinger instead of a hot-shot defense attorney like Mr Wells.

Oh I doubt I could have done any better.

Obviously, Mr Wells didn't have the same grasp of the case that Stinger does.

I think the did make one strategic error but then hind site is 20/20.

Otherwise, how could all of the jurors determine that it was beyond reasonable doubt that Libby had lied - not forgotten.

So you believe all juries are perfect?

It's all laid out quite plainly [plainly enough if you're willing to see it] in the indictment.

The indictment is ONLY an assertion.

Who testified that they had first hand knowledge Libby was trying to willfully obstruct justice? What was the written evidence the prosecution presented?


Basically, Libby had a bunch of meetings with govt officials [about two a week for a month] where he discussed Plame/Wilson etc.

And reporters.

But he told investigators that he learned about Plame subsequent to these meetings from reporters instead of from the govt officials [including the VP].

So what? How did that obstruct Fitzgerald from learning that Armitage is the one who told Novak that Plame worked at the CIA? And seeing as the other key witnesses also had memory lapses as to whom they first heard it from and when what was the overwhelmingly convincing evidence that Libby willfully and knowing lied for the purpose of obstructing justice. Have you heard a juror state what it was?

So, not only did he "forget" who had told him, he says he "forgot" he knew at all despite the plethora of meetings and faxes etc.

And the overwhelmingly convincing evidence otherwise was the shaky memory of the others.

It's also worth noting that:
"...Mr. Novak was not the first reporter to be told that Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, Ambassador Wilson's wife, Valerie, worked at the CIA. Several other reporters were told. In fact, Mr. Libby was the first official known to have told a reporter when he talked with Judith Miller in June of 2003 about Valerie Wilson."

You don know that Ms. Miller had to revise her own testimony due to faulty memory.

Andre Mitchell stated she and many reporters in the Washington office of NBC knew. It wasn't a secret.

As the respected journalist Charles Krauthammer put it

"Think about that. Can you remember when you first heard the name Joe Wilson or Valerie Plame? Okay, so it is not a preoccupation of yours. But it was a preoccupation of many Washington journalists and government officials called to testify at the Libby trial, and their memories were all over the lot. Former presidential press secretary Ari Fleischer testified under oath that he had not told Post reporter Walter Pincus about Mrs. Wilson. Pincus testified under oath that Fleischer definitely had.Obviously, one is not telling the truth. But there is no reason to believe that either one is deliberately lying. Pincus and Fleischer are as fallible as any of us. They spend their days receiving and giving information. They can't possibly be expected to remember not only every piece but precisely when they received every piece."
 
And reporters.
Actually, the meetings with the reporters happen AFTER this period of multiple meetings with govt officials.

Haven't you bothered to read the indictment yet?

Further Libby himself said "that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA ... was not widely known."

So, is Libby lying about this or are the pundits defending him lying about this?

The indictment is ONLY an assertion.
The question was: "...quote his statements and place them next to what was true?"

This is done in the indictment.

How did that obstruct Fitzgerald from learning that Armitage is the one who told Novak that Plame worked at the CIA?
Since Libby was acting indepently from Armitage, why would knowledge about Armitage have an impact? Just because Armitage did wrong doesn't mean that Libby et al did not do wrong.

On or about June 23, 2003, LIBBY met with New York Times reporter Judith Miller. During this meeting LIBBY was critical of the CIA, and disparaged what he termed “selective leaking” by the CIA concerning intelligence matters. In discussing the CIA’s handling of Wilson’s trip to Niger, LIBBY informed her that Wilson’s wife might work at a bureau of the CIA.
Armitage talked to Novak in July 2003.


Despite the ready availability of evidence you've been unable or unwilling to see these things before. What makes you think you're able or willing to see now?
 
You are repeating yourself here from another thread. I respond there.
 
Don't you understand...it was the damn stupid juries fault. They were obviously too stupid to understand. Despite the fact that they were there listening to all the testimony and Despite the fact that none of us are privy to their deliberations, its obvious that it was the jury, not stinger, who didn't understand the evidence that was presented to them. We need to eliminate the jury system entirely because jurors are all too stupid to understand the information presented to them. The only answer to all of this is that the jury was jury simply too stupid to understand, so the only reason that Libby got convicted was because the jury was just too dumb. Get it?
 
Don't you understand...it was the damn stupid juries fault. They were obviously too stupid to understand. Despite the fact that they were there listening to all the testimony and Despite the fact that none of us are privy to their deliberations, its obvious that it was the jury, not stinger, who didn't understand the evidence that was presented to them. We need to eliminate the jury system entirely because jurors are all too stupid to understand the information presented to them. The only answer to all of this is that the jury was jury simply too stupid to understand, so the only reason that Libby got convicted was because the jury was just too dumb. Get it?

LOL I don't even read Stinger's posts on this topic anymore. I just can't. They are not remotely based on reality.
 
LOL I don't even read Stinger's posts on this topic anymore. I just can't. They are not remotely based on reality.

:rofl rather the fact that you have never been able to refute any of the factual statements I post but choose to rely on David Shusters assertions about the whole thing.

Cite one thing I posted that wasn't based on reality. And then try to stick to the topic and not the personal.
 
Don't you understand...it was the damn stupid juries fault.

And of course these jurors then come out an call for a pardon for the guilty verdict they just issued.
 
And of course these jurors then come out an call for a pardon for the guilty verdict they just issued.
Because they think Libby took the fall for crooks in the Admin and they feel sorry for him.

It's NOT because they think he didn't commit a crime. They were quite clear that Libby did commit crimes.
 
Because they think Libby took the fall for crooks in the Admin and they feel sorry for him.

Fall for what, no one else and nothing else was before them other than when Libby spoke Plames name and too whom and whether he was purposely lying and trying to obstruct justice.

It's NOT because they think he didn't commit a crime. They were quite clear that Libby did commit crimes.

And I've yet to hear anyone say what the obstruction of justice was or what the overwhelming evidence he purposely lied was, all I've heard them say is they just couldn't believe his memory was as bad as the other witnesses.
 
Because they think Libby took the fall for crooks in the Admin and they feel sorry for him.

It's NOT because they think he didn't commit a crime. They were quite clear that Libby did commit crimes.

I honestly do not understand how someone can NOT see that people can agree that someone committed a crime but then NOT want that person to go to jail.

The obstruction charge was based on Libby NOT telling the truth about who he told or did not tell about Valerie Plame. That prevented Fitzgerald from being able to determine whether Libby had violated a law involving the leaking of classified information.
 
Fall for what, no one else and nothing else was before them other than when Libby spoke Plames name and too whom and whether he was purposely lying and trying to obstruct justice.
This info is in the same segment where she talks about why she'd be okay with Libby getting a pardon.
Stinger said:
And I've yet to hear anyone say what the obstruction of justice was or what the overwhelming evidence he purposely lied was, all I've heard them say is they just couldn't believe his memory was as bad as the other witnesses.
If you can't see how lying to the FBI and a grand jury is an obstruction of justice, I'm not sure that I have the power to explain it to you.

He received a fair trial and was convicted by a jury of his peers.
The fact that you think these jurors were morons is pretty much irrelevant.

Good Luck.
 
Originally Posted by Stinger
Fall for what, no one else and nothing else was before them other than when Libby spoke Plames name and too whom and whether he was purposely lying and trying to obstruct justice.


This info is in the same segment where she talks about why she'd be okay with Libby getting a pardon.

Which had nothing to do with what they were litigating, they were not judging whether or not a crime had been committed elsewhere, no one else has been charge with a crime else where, there is no evidence there was a crime committed elsewhere. So who were are they claiming he was falling for and what crime? Fitzgerald didn't produce a shred of evidence that there was someother crime.

If you can't see how lying to the FBI and a grand jury is an obstruction of justice, I'm not sure that I have the power to explain it to you.

If you can't see that there was no first hand evidence that showed Libby was purposely telling an untruth, a lie, and doing so to obstruct justice then I'm not sure I have the power to explain it to you. Who testified that they had first hand evidence Libby was engaged in a plot to obstruct justice?

He received a fair trial and was convicted by a jury of his peers.
The fact that you think these jurors were morons is pretty much irrelevant.

That you have to accuse me of merely claiming the jurors are morons shows how totally lacking your arguments are.
Good Luck.

I have the luck of the Irish what more do I need. Good luck showing the specific obstruction of justice and the overwhelming evidence of it, merely assigning some believe to me concerning the jurors is something I'd expect in a high school debate.
 
It's all laid out quite plainly [plainly enough if you're willing to see it] in the indictment.

I read that and at about half-way I found it anything but "quite plainly" laid out.

If you think it was "plainly" laid out then can you please simply answer my question in my origional post.

Can you quote what he testified to and place it next to what was true?
 
Originally Posted by Stinger
I have the luck of the Irish what more do I need. Good luck showing the specific obstruction of justice and the overwhelming evidence of it, merely assigning some believe to me concerning the jurors is something I'd expect in a high school debate.
Maybe he was trying to come down to the level of the audience in hopes the high schooler will understand what is being stated?

I would take the ability to reason over Irish luck any day of the week.
 
I read that and at about half-way I found it anything but "quite plainly" laid out.

If you think it was "plainly" laid out then can you please simply answer my question in my origional post.

Can you quote what he testified to and place it next to what was true?


Hear! Hear!

I'm all for justice, but what did he testify that was false, and what was true, that he didn't testify to? Should be five lies, right?

I guess "quite plainly laid out" means different things to different folks

I have to say, the American Jury System doesn't mean the same thing it did before OJ
 
I have a question about the Libby case and I am not sure if anyone in here can actually answer it.

What exactly was Libby found guilty of?

Not....the actual "crime". perjury, obstruction, etc.

I am curious if anyone has seen anywhere what specifically Libby said under oath that wasn't true.

Can anyone quote his statements and place them next to what was true?

I hope my request is clear enough.....
Everyone in the Bush administration spews continuous lies. The real question should be; Who would be a big enough fool to believe anything that came out of the Bush administration.
 
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