Question 9 for Christians

[Rev.]

Again.. no one answered my question . they just threw out definitions that god is great and good and satan is bad and evil.

I answered your question...Satan wanted to be God. He wanted to be worshiped and adored. There's nothing rational about wanting what you can't have...people do it all the time.

Let me try ... I'll start by personifying satan. What would it take for a human to fight a fight they had no hopes of winning.


1> they are just plain crazy.
2> something they value more than life itself is threatened
a} family
b}children (while yes children can be family they deserve their own line)
c}liberty
3> religion
4> they perceive a chance of winning
5> they are backed into a corner.

tell me.. which of these fits the Christian superstitions? Or feel free to add one that does.

6> There are serious limits in your knowledge so that you can't see the inevitable outcome. Satan is not omniscient, after all.

 

[Jerry]

Again.. no one answered my question . they just threw out definitions that god is great and good and satan is bad and evil.


A good plot for a story. nothing more.

Let me try ... I'll start by personifying satan. What would it take for a human to fight a fight they had no hopes of winning.


1> they are just plain crazy.
2> something they value more than life itself is threatened
a} family
b}children (while yes children can be family they deserve their own line)
c}liberty
3> religion
4> they perceive a chance of winning
5> they are backed into a corner.

tell me.. which of these fits the Christian superstitions? Or feel free to add one that does.

That question precludes an answer.
By answering the question, one accepts the premise that Christian beliefs are nothing more than superstitions and automatically labels any such reply as a superstition.

So now we have to take it to the next level: What element of the Christian persona angers you and who does that anger remind you of? What happened between you and that person/people?

 

[jallman]

Again.. no one answered my question . they just threw out definitions that god is great and good and satan is bad and evil.


A good plot for a story. nothing more.

Let me try ... I'll start by personifying satan. What would it take for a human to fight a fight they had no hopes of winning.


1> they are just plain crazy.
2> something they value more than life itself is threatened
a} family
b}children (while yes children can be family they deserve their own line)
c}liberty
3> religion
4> they perceive a chance of winning
5> they are backed into a corner.

tell me.. which of these fits the Christian superstitions? Or feel free to add one that does.

Pride...willful, arrogant pride. Satan is the embodiment of that. He is so full of pride and arrogance that he cannot see the outcome for want of rebellion itself.

 

[jallman]

That question precludes an answer.
By answering the question, one accepts the premise that Christian beliefs are nothing more than superstitions and automatically labels any such reply as a superstition.

So now we have to take it to the next level: What element of the Christian persona angers you and who does that anger remind you of? What happened between you and that person/people?

:applaud Well played. You know, if we approached their disbelief with even a small measure of the venom they express for our faith, they would be frothing at the mouth calling us intolerant and hate-mongers. You cannot expect respect from those who have no reason to show it, though.

 

[Deegan]

:applaud Well played. You know, if we approached their disbelief with even a small measure of the venom they express for our faith, they would be frothing at the mouth calling us intolerant and hate-mongers. You cannot expect respect from those who have no reason to show it, though.

Ditto, this is why I try to avoid these threads, they don't seek answers, they seek to belittle, and berate.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

Again.. no one answered my question . they just threw out definitions that god is great and good and satan is bad and evil.


A good plot for a story. nothing more.

Let me try ... I'll start by personifying satan. What would it take for a human to fight a fight they had no hopes of winning.


1> they are just plain crazy.
2> something they value more than life itself is threatened
a} family
b}children (while yes children can be family they deserve their own line)
c}liberty
3> religion
4> they perceive a chance of winning
5> they are backed into a corner.

tell me.. which of these fits the Christian superstitions? Or feel free to add one that does.

Assuming that certain doctrines are true, 1) each person has moral agency and 2) Satan can influence individuals, he can in a certain way contribute to turning people from God. And in this way can he "win." Although it is the battle, and not the war.

 

[kal-el]

Ditto, this is why I try to avoid these threads, they don't seek answers, they seek to belittle, and berate.

Well in all seriousness, how would you percolate towards one who claims they were abducted by UFO's, but couldn't prove it, instead kept reiterating in parrot fashion that you need to abandon all logic and reason, you just need to believe? Faith is not based on truth, knowledge, experience, or even rational thinking. Faith-Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. The blatant downgrading and demeaning of intelligence is clearly shown throughout the NT. After reading it, one must consumate that everyone should buckle down to be moronic and non-skeptical, as those who are, are not sentenced to eternal damnation.

Originally posted by Demosthenes
Assuming that certain doctrines are true, 1) each person has moral agency and 2) Satan can influence individuals, he can in a certain way contribute to turning people from God. And in this way can he "win." Although it is the battle, and not the war.

Let me get this staight- Satan was able to morph or transform into a snake, chaperon sin into the world, turn humans away from God, and (this is the kicker) make it compulsory that an all-powerful diety must sacrifice his son to be tortured to death and killed to solvent sins.:lol: Geese, Satan can perform miracles too- fly through the air, transport the carpenter to the top of mountains that overlook the whole earth, and retain it to offer it up to the carpenter in exchange for his adulation. I would say the moral of the NT is that Satan makes everyone evil, so this God fellow had to think up a plan to repossess humans from Satan's clawhooks.:lol: The mere existance of the fiery furnace bears witness to Satan's win over this God fellow. I'd say as of right now, Satan is at least 3x as powerful as God in their never ending fight for souls of his own species.

 

[Deegan]

Well in all seriousness, how would you percolate towards one who claims they were abducted by UFO's, but couldn't prove it, instead kept reiterating in parrot fashion that you need to abandon all logic and reason, you just need to believe? Faith is not based on truth, knowledge, experience, or even rational thinking. Faith-Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. The blatant downgrading and demeaning of intelligence is clearly shown throughout the NT. After reading it, one must consumate that everyone should buckle down to be moronic and non-skeptical, as those who are, are not sentenced to eternal damnation.

When are you going to get this through your head, you're in the small minority sir, no one here has to prove a thing to you, or explain themselves at all. 90% of us believe in a God, I know that must frustrate you, and you feel very lonely, but I don't really give a damn.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

Well in all seriousness, how would you percolate towards one who claims they were abducted by UFO's, but couldn't prove it, instead kept reiterating in parrot fashion that you need to abandon all logic and reason, you just need to believe? Faith is not based on truth, knowledge, experience, or even rational thinking. Faith-Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. The blatant downgrading and demeaning of intelligence is clearly shown throughout the NT. After reading it, one must consumate that everyone should buckle down to be moronic and non-skeptical, as those who are, are not sentenced to eternal damnation.

Faith is not based on logic, rationality, or fact. It's based on feeling. Anyone who says differently does not have faith.

In this thread we are using base assumptions (ie. bible is true) that are not necessarily true. Having established these assumptions not as fact, but as assumption for the purpose of discussion we can then debate certain things that we could not only using what is fact.

How is this useful? A large part of the population believes in the Bible, it is useful to have a debate assuming that the Bible is true, then say having a debate assuming that pigs can fly, which has no historical nor cultural worth.

Therefore challenging this assumption is useful, but misplaced. Those of us talking about it seriously take it as assumption and not as universal fact (although we may feel that it is true) in order to structure a debate around.

Let me get this staight- Satan was able to morph or transform into a snake, chaperon sin into the world, turn humans away from God, and (this is the kicker) make it compulsory that an all-powerful diety must sacrifice his son to be tortured to death and killed to solvent sins. Geese, Satan can perform miracles too- fly through the air, transport the carpenter to the top of mountains that overlook the whole earth, and retain it to offer it up to the carpenter in exchange for his adulation. I would say the moral of the NT is that Satan makes everyone evil, so this God fellow had to think up a plan to repossess humans from Satan's clawhooks. The mere existance of the fiery furnace bears witness to Satan's win over this God fellow. I'd say as of right now, Satan is at least 3x as powerful as God in their never ending fight for souls of his own species.

Yes, we understand that it is amazingly unlikely. Did you seriously think that we didn't?

We are working on base assumptions, not anything we claim to be provable fact.

 

[kal-el]

When are you going to get this through your head, you're in the small minority sir,

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm in error. I think it was either Copernicus or Bruno, that stated the earth was round, of course he got burned alive for it, but he was the vast minority, yet he was right.

no one here has to prove a thing to you, or explain themselves at all.

How diametric of you. If they assert that God exists, that is a positive assertion, hence they are required to prove it. It is an assertion about reality. Although some claims do not need to be supported, such as the sun is yellow, and the earth is round, as they are proven. Until your gargantuan, conceled sky goblin sits down and has a cup of coffee with me (cause I have a comfortable chair in my room, I'm just waiting for him to park his fat ceister on it.:lol: ), I will continue to be a misanthrope, as there is no well-founded or legitimate reason to believe in such.

90% of us believe in a God,

So? Tell me something I don't already know.

I know that must frustrate you, and you feel very lonely, but I don't really give a damn.

Actually, I feel my life is full, without having to converse with some imaginary man.

 

[kal-el]

Faith is not based on logic, rationality, or fact. It's based on feeling. Anyone who says differently does not have faith.

Exactly. Faith replaces logical thinking or questions stemming from doubt.

Yes, we understand that it is amazingly unlikely. Did you seriously think that we didn't?

Well according to Deegan, 90% of you blindly believe in an etheral, immaterial God.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

Exactly. Faith replaces logical thinking or questions stemming from doubt.

In this area concerning religion and God where feeling overrides logic or reason, sure.

Well according to Deegan, 90% of you blindly believe in an e[t]eral, immaterial God.

Not blindly, because of a feeling.

Or in the case of those who say it's scientifically provable or somehow provable fact, because they want to/know no other way to live.

 

[Jerry]

Faith is not based on logic, rationality, or fact. It's based on feeling. Anyone who says differently does not have faith.

I take issue with that.
Faith is trust and is proved to the individual through experience. Proven trust is not illogical. Experience is not illogical.

This is why, Kal-el, no Man can ever lead you to faith. The Bible will never lead you to faith. You will never establish your faith without first trusting God and then letting Him prove His worthiness to you. Never.

 

[kal-el]

I take issue with that.
Faith is trust and is proved to the individual through experience. Proven trust is not illogical. Experience is not illogical.

And what dictionary did you acquire this definition of faith in?

This is why, Kal-el, no Man can ever lead you to faith. The Bible will never lead you to faith. You will never establish your faith without first trusting God and then letting Him prove His worthiness to you. Never.

With all due respect Jerry, I have an entire lifetime in which God can prove his faith to me; time and time again he never does. Alls I'd say he must do is swoop down from the sky fortress and show his immaculate mug to me. You're right, no man can lead me to faith, as faith is not based on any rational thinking or logic at all. So, are you saying there is no way a perfect God can prove himself? Being omniscient, he knows that some will not blindly rely on faith, and being loving would desire all of his creation to follow him, yet he has been absent since OT times. Go figure?

 

[Jerry]

And what dictionary did you acquire this definition of faith in?

Hmmm.....you know, I've never looked to a dictionary to tell me what faith is.....this should be interesting.

From Dictionary.com
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. (Christianity). The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

From MSN/Hotmail Dictionary

1. belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof.
2. a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3. belief in and devotion to God
4. a strongly held set of beliefs or principles
5. allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something

I highlighted the portions which reflect how I use the word, of coarse.

With all due respect Jerry, I have an entire lifetime in which God can prove his faith to me; time and time again he never does. Alls I'd say he must do is swoop down from the sky fortress and show his immaculate mug to me. You're right, no man can lead me to faith, as faith is not based on any rational thinking or logic at all. So, are you saying there is no way a perfect God can prove himself? Being omniscient, he knows that some will not blindly rely on faith, and being loving would desire all of his creation to follow him, yet he has been absent since OT times. Go figure?

I believe that some will not be capable, for what ever reason, of having faith until they are face to face with God. That event, however, will first require your physical death, as any living Man who looks onto the face of God will die.

As for proof, you would have to first trust the source and authority of that proof in order to ever accept it. Irony.

 

[kal-el]

Hmmm.....you know, I've never looked to a dictionary to tell me what faith is.....this should be interesting.

From Dictionary.com
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. (Christianity). The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

From MSN/Hotmail Dictionary

1. belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof.
2. a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3. belief in and devotion to God
4. a strongly held set of beliefs or principles
5. allegiance or loyalty to somebody or something

I highlighted the portions which reflect how I use the word, of coarse.

Ok, fair enough then. Good job.:2razz: This definition fits it very well:

1. belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof

I believe that some will not be capable, for what ever reason, of having faith until they are face to face with God. That event, however, will first require your physical death, as any living Man who looks onto the face of God will die.

That last sentence is innacurate. Jacob sees God's face,, and died of natural causes, Moses sees God's face (and his ***:lol: ), Moses died and God buried him, but not because he seen his grill. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 34:10&version=31

As for proof, you would have to first trust the source and authority of that proof in order to ever accept it. Irony.

Yes, and the Bible is the sole source of your faith. It just defies all casual sense and comprehension. Actually, it's a cockamamie book full of numerous absurdities, contradictions and intolerance. I would assume one needs to have faith in order to buy into supernatural hocus-pocus.

 

[Deegan]

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm in error. I think it was either Copernicus or Bruno, that stated the earth was round, of course he got burned alive for it, but he was the vast minority, yet he was right.




How diametric of you. If they assert that God exists, that is a positive assertion, hence they are required to prove it. It is an assertion about reality. Although some claims do not need to be supported, such as the sun is yellow, and the earth is round, as they are proven. Until your gargantuan, conceled sky goblin sits down and has a cup of coffee with me (cause I have a comfortable chair in my room, I'm just waiting for him to park his fat ceister on it.:lol: ), I will continue to be a misanthrope, as there is no well-founded or legitimate reason to believe in such.




So? Tell me something I don't already know.



Actually, I feel my life is full, without having to converse with some imaginary man.

So why are you here, why are you asking these questions, if you are o.k, and I am o.k, why the hell are you here everyday?

 

[-Demosthenes-]

And what dictionary did you acquire this definition of faith in?

Faith is a concept far more complicated than what a dictionary definition can show.

I take issue with that.
Faith is trust and is proved to the individual through experience. Proven trust is not illogical. Experience is not illogical.

This is why, Kal-el, no Man can ever lead you to faith. The Bible will never lead you to faith. You will never establish your faith without first trusting God and then letting Him prove His worthiness to you. Never.

Through experiences in which we feel something, not where something is proven or shown as fact.

I believe that some will not be capable, for what ever reason, of having faith until they are face to face with God. That event, however, will first require your physical death, as any living Man who looks onto the face of God will die.

That's not faith, that is knowledge. They are very different.

Yes, and the Bible is the sole source of your faith. It just defies all casual sense and comprehension. Actually, it's a cockamamie book full of numerous absurdities, contradictions and intolerance. I would assume one needs to have faith in order to buy into supernatural hocus-pocus.

Yes! It's absurd, insanely absurd! But some people believe it anyway because of a feeling.

As Kierkegaard wrote extensively. We all know how amazingly illogical God is. You can't rationalism religion, you can't prove it. As Kierkegaard said, those who try to rationalize God no longer believe in God.

 

[kal-el]

So why are you here, why are you asking these questions, if you are o.k, and I am o.k, why the hell are you here everyday?

This is a lethargic, numskulled question on your part. Why is anyone here? The forum is called Debate Politics, so that title suggests that this is a place to Debate. What exactly are you not understanding about this?

 

[Deegan]

This is a lethargic, numskulled question on your part. Why is anyone here? The forum is called Debate Politics, so that title suggests that this is a place to Debate. What exactly are you not understanding about this?

I fear you are not very bright, I was of course referring to this topic, as you hover here, waiting to attack the next Christian for his/her belief.

"lethargic, numskulled" indeed.:roll:

 

[-Demosthenes-]

I fear you are not very bright, I was of course referring to this topic, as you hover here, waiting to attack the next Christian for his/her belief.

"lethargic, numskulled" indeed.:roll:

Let's stop this please.

 

[kal-el]

Let's stop this please.

Yea, let's. If Deegan wants to act like a juvenile and heave preposterous, mawkish insults at me, this is not the place to go about it. Dude Deeg, please act your age, I know you are a little more mature than you're acting.

 

[Dogger807]

That question precludes an answer.
By answering the question, one accepts the premise that Christian beliefs are nothing more than superstitions and automatically labels any such reply as a superstition.

So now we have to take it to the next level: What element of the Christian persona angers you and who does that anger remind you of? What happened between you and that person/people?

hmm what could make me dislike religion in general and christianity in particular.

Well studying history is a good start. The evil done in the name of christianity is truly nauseating. Joshua exterminating the town of Jericho in the name of conquest. Early christians exterminating witches. the crusades. The Inquisition. Hitler using religion to justify genocide. Men using bible to justify slavery. Men using religion to enslave women. People using the superstion to justify dehumanization of gays.

The constant subjugation of people by people in power thru religion. See the entire caste system of the dark ages for starters. Have you ever been to Rome? The vatican is disgusting in it's wealth surrounded by poverty of the common masses. When was the last time Pat Robertson went hungry?

But make no mistake. My distaste in religion is not the reason I'm an atheist . I never believed and truthfully can not see myself ever believing. In truth I get along well with most christians, Hindus, or what have you. Aside from this forum most people really don't want to debate religion. With the exception of one Lutheran friend of mine (who can kick my rear in ever other debate besides religion), I don't discuss much or even really worry about religion because it's so ridiculous it absurd.

The anger you point out is more frustration than anything else. The selfdelusion of theists is almost physicaly painful. You can , without fail, expect a theist to respond to any fact that contradicts their beliefs by screwing their eyes shut and shouting some form of "that's not true." . Their biggest proof of god's existence is that 86% of the population believes. Well either that or they insist that since they can not conceive of an existence without god he must therefore exist.

Why am I hostile toward religion when I had never been before? I can sum that up in two words ... Religious Right.

 

[jallman]

Yea, let's. If Deegan wants to act like a juvenile and heave preposterous, mawkish insults at me, this is not the place to go about it. Dude Deeg, please act your age, I know you are a little more mature than you're acting.

WHAT? You are actually going to sit here and condemn Deegan for making mawkish insults when you have been doing nothing but for the whole thread and pretty much this whole religion forum. He's right, you sit here and wait with bated breath for the next christian to show up so you can shred him or her down. You get so proud of your attacks on any christian's intellect that you have convinced yourself that anyone of faith must be daft. Venom...nothing but anytime you post in this forum.

So before you start talking about deegan's maturity level for pointing out the elephant in the room, maybe you should take the plank out of your own eye. The sawdust in his, isnt the problem here.

 

[kal-el]

WHAT? You are actually going to sit here and condemn Deegan for making mawkish insults when you have been doing nothing but for the whole thread and pretty much this whole religion forum. He's right, you sit here and wait with bated breath for the next christian to show up so you can shred him or her down. You get so proud of your attacks on any christian's intellect that you have convinced yourself that anyone of faith must be daft. Venom...nothing but anytime you post in this forum.

So before you start talking about deegan's maturity level for pointing out the elephant in the room, maybe you should take the plank out of your own eye. The sawdust in his, isnt the problem here.

Whooooa, hold on there a minute buddy. Deegan has been constantly demonstrating how babyish, and how much of a ding-a-ling he is. He may be your compadre, but he has practically been following me around this forum, spewing his childish retoric. It makes me wonder how old he really is? For 1 example of his immaturity, look here. O, BTW, how are you jallman?:2razz: