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Question 9 for Christians

Dogger807

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Ok it's question time, it seems and I have one I've never have received a plausible answear to. If god is all powerful, all knowing, and perfect why, for the love of all that's logical, would satan (who is supposed to be smart and clever) and his followers rebel against such a being.

In my book that would make satan the very definition of the word dumb@$$ .
 

Rev.

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dogger807 said:
Ok it's question time, it seems and I have one I've never have received a plausible answear to. If god is all powerful, all knowing, and perfect why, for the love of all that's logical, would satan (who is supposed to be smart and clever) and his followers rebel against such a being.

In my book that would make satan the very definition of the word dumb@$$ .
Because Satan wanted to be God (and have all that power, knowledge and perfection for himself)...and yes it is dumb.

But it's also the definition of sin...to want to be God for yourself and have power over yourself vs. letting God (all-powerful, all-knowing and perfect) be God of you. So doesn't that make sinners the very definition of dumb?
 

alphamale

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Why would satan rebel against the All Powerful God? By definition he would lose!
 

kal-el

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dogger807 said:
Ok it's question time, it seems and I have one I've never have received a plausible answear to. If god is all powerful, all knowing, and perfect why, for the love of all that's logical, would satan (who is supposed to be smart and clever) and his followers rebel against such a being.

In my book that would make satan the very definition of the word dumb@$$ .
Well, according to the Bible, Satan is a pretty tough customer, capable of showing signs and producing miracles. But if this "God" is truly omniscient, a rebellion would never have happened.
 

nkgupta80

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kal-el said:
Well, according to the Bible, Satan is a pretty tough customer, capable of showing signs and producing miracles. But if this "God" is truly omniscient, a rebellion would never have happened.
yeah, also, what does god have against having beings also reach total perfection. Does god feel challegned. If Satan wanted ultimate power and perfection, let him have it. In that state of perfection, all jealousy/greed would techinically be gone, and there would be no conflict.
 

kal-el

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nkgupta80 said:
yeah, also, what does god have against having beings also reach total perfection. Does god feel challegned. If Satan wanted ultimate power and perfection, let him have it. In that state of perfection, all jealousy/greed would techinically be gone, and there would be no conflict.
I'm guessing he's an egomaniac. Satan is his buddy in the book of Job, but this "God" fellow keeps a him on a tight leash.:lol: Satan knows his role. He knows God's the clan wizard, so to speak.:lol:
 

Jerry

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dogger807 said:
Ok it's question time, it seems and I have one I've never have received a plausible answear to. If god is all powerful, all knowing, and perfect why, for the love of all that's logical, would satan (who is supposed to be smart and clever) and his followers rebel against such a being.

In my book that would make satan the very definition of the word dumb@$$ .
Yup.
It sure does.

Basically, Satan is a pissed of teen who is trying to get us to rebel against God so that satan feels better. Misery loves company and all that.

Satan knows he's going down and he wants to take as many of us with him as he can. Unfortunately for Satan, he wont get even one of us, and God is using Satan's antics here to harden us against the deceptive tactics which fooled 1/3rd. of heavens angels
 

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Let's see, this is gonna take some defining on my part.

"Satan"= The animal and survival instincts of man. We are born with them, they drive us to make war, be aggresive, and protect out own "lives."

When coupled with intelligence and used in social, poitical, and financial situations, they are not so good. Our intelligence is often devoid of wisdom and we lie, cheat, steal, pollute, and can justify it to our intelect in a rational manner. Those instincts whisper to us to do the opposite of other ones humans have developed.

Here there is indifference.

"God"= Compassion.

I do not have to like someone or agree with then to have compassion for them. This is the frontal brain, the largest part of our evolution. We also had to live a life of survival to get here, and we sure succeded. We dominate the planet, by the reptile survival mode of our brain.

There is a war within us, our protection of "life" has grown to include religion, government and culture wars. We are aggresive "pre-emptive war" and prey on others, Enron we do behave like beasts at times.

Telling anyone to have compassion today is like saying stop life and try living. Fear drives us to say no way that will never work, the "devil" keeps us at animal instincts of the beasts.

Why is it this way? Both are perfect, the free will is which one you want to win. Compassion, or indifference.

A world full of indifference sure seems like a living hell to me.

KMS
 

-Demosthenes-

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Assuming that God must allow moral agency for each of it's creations then God would have to allow Satan to chose what he wants, and Satan would know this and chose whatever he wants.
 

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Life has in it it's own intelligence. It needs no brain in order to survive, ask any scientist how smart AIDS and disease are, they are losing the battle. Our life intelligence is far from wisdom.

Animals are sinless, they do not see the difference in life intelligence and wisdom, as we lash out at what makes cancer work so well, to take away our children, we eat veal. If a cow had wisdom would she see us as like cancer, living means life will end. What gives me as a human with the same intelligence of life the right to judge other life for using them?

That I even exist is because of that same intelligence inside me, it made humans more succesfull than any other life today, how can it be wrong? We see that it is because unlike animals we have intelligence beyond just survive, we have wisdom too.

Morals do not apply to life intelligence, the T-Rex had none, cats have none, we as humans have the ability to not live indifferent, we can see the suffering and try to stop it.

"God" did not make morals, yet we have the ability to define them for ourselves. It is up to us by free will, to decide what is and is not "moral." Does "God" tell us of a good way to act for the benifit of all? Yes. Do some take this view and us it for their own good? Yes.

Moral's are only for humans to judge each other and our actions by, not for "God" to hold us to as a requirement for life. Those life rules are all based in unmoral actions, we can chose not to participate in that way of living, animalish. Morals do that by our own measure.

You are right "God" does not have to be moral, life will go on, innocent and blissfull in the killing and survival mode alone absent of any morals. Morals are not necessary to life, they are a better way to live. Our morals are a way our own wisdom recommends we live, yet requires to acheive it the intelligence of life..

KMS
 
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kal-el

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-Demosthenes- said:
Assuming that God must allow moral agency for each of it's creations then God would have to allow Satan to chose what he wants, and Satan would know this and chose whatever he wants.
And he can, in the book of Job, he convinces his pal, God, to give him a "geen" light to reak all kinds of hazard on Job.
 

-Demosthenes-

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kal-el said:
And he can, in the book of Job, he convinces his pal, God, to give him a "geen" light to reak all kinds of hazard on Job.
I'm trying to separate christian doctrines, and I'm having a hard time figuring out if this is "mainstream christian," but isn't it possible that if Satan rebelled in heaven before we were all born so he was never born on earth, and therefore has no body. He's just a spirit, and may have moral agency, but no real power to act physically in the lives of living people, such as Job.

Again, I'm not sure if this is mainstream or radical christian doctrine, but it explains it well using base assumptions.
 

Rev.

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-Demosthenes- said:
I'm trying to separate christian doctrines, and I'm having a hard time figuring out if this is "mainstream christian," but isn't it possible that if Satan rebelled in heaven before we were all born so he was never born on earth, and therefore has no body. He's just a spirit, and may have moral agency, but no real power to act physically in the lives of living people, such as Job.

Again, I'm not sure if this is mainstream or radical christian doctrine, but it explains it well using base assumptions.
Very interesting.

I think you are right about him being a spiritual being...but the power question has me intrigued. I guess I would have to ask if you mean "power" as in "ability" or "power" as in "authority." God had to grant him the authority to do stuff to Job, and each time his authority was limited. So I would think that Satan's authority to act physically in the lives of believers might have similar limits...but in the lives of non-believers there are no limits and thus they might be "possessed" etc.
 

Jerry

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According to Luciferian Aaron C. Donahue, Lucifer is a being who’s nature is as a sentient information system; as is the structural nature of Man and God.

Also according to Aaron, black magick, of which he practices, does not work at all on people who live a righteous life.

Given the above, “power” is a pattern of information which can exert some form of control. Lucifer has no power over righteous people because righteous people can see through Lucifer’s deceiving information by connecting directly with the truth: God.
 
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laska

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-Demosthenes- said:
I'm trying to separate christian doctrines, and I'm having a hard time figuring out if this is "mainstream christian," but isn't it possible that if Satan rebelled in heaven before we were all born so he was never born on earth, and therefore has no body. He's just a spirit, and may have moral agency, but no real power to act physically in the lives of living people, such as Job.

Again, I'm not sure if this is mainstream or radical christian doctrine, but it explains it well using base assumptions.
I don't think this is mainstream Christian doctrine but it is LDS(Mormon) doctrine and I think also early Christian.
 

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Rev. said:
I guess I would have to ask if you mean "power" as in "ability" or "power" as in "authority."
Ability. Under the belief system I ascribe (which is probably not mainstream Christian) Satan has no body, and therefore cannot act on or effect us physically, but can only influence our mind/spirit in certain ways that a spirit can.

Although I would stress that this is probably not a common Christian belief, and I am in no way saying that it is scientific nor that others have to believe this. Only explaining how my belief system explains certain Christian Doctrine.

laska said:
I don't think this is mainstream Christian doctrine but it is LDS(Mormon) doctrine and I think also early Christian.
That makes sense.
 

Apostle13

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Jerry said:
According to Luciferian Aaron C. Donahue, Lucifer is a being who’s nature is as a sentient information system; as is the structural nature of Man and God.

Also according to Aaron, black magick, of which he practices, does not work at all on people who live a righteous life.

Given the above, “power” is a pattern of information which can exert some form of control. Lucifer has no power over righteous people because righteous people can see through Lucifer’s deceiving information by connecting directly with the truth: God.
Not wishing to comment on your first assertion... But yes the righteous are hidden by our knowledge of satan's cunning/deceptive means... More importantly by the power of God's Spirit we are placed in what the bible refers to as "The secret place" or "Beneath the shadow of The Almighty"... Demons and witches (human agents of satan) are frustrated in their efforts/desire to harm us. Lest we break down our own hedge through perpetual sin, whereby they might gain entrance into our lives.
 

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-Demosthenes-...Ability. Under the belief system I ascribe (which is probably not mainstream Christian) Satan has no body, and therefore cannot act on or effect us physically, but can only influence our mind/spirit in certain ways that a spirit can.


In Job you will read how Yahweh ALLOWED Satan to reach out and touch Job...in every aspect of his life,including his body.
Today...I believe he is just as active, if not more, as the end is nearing.
he is described as a lion roaming, seeking whom he will destroy. I believe he does influence and invade body cavities that are not consecrated.as well as his demons.
I believe he can reach out and touch as God allows...because God is in control...like in Job He told Satan he could not take Job's life. so I see him as a roaming lion WITHOUT any teeth:lol: to harm Christians!!!

Christians are indwelled by the Holy Spirit...He won't allow any evil to invade and take up residence in that temple as long as we are surrendered to Him.
 

AndrewC

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The answer is humanity. Humanity and all its imperfection gives the devil everything needed to challenge god. That is why christianity focuses so much on personal choice and temptation. It is up to christians to defeat the devil's plans by choosing to live like the bible says.
 

ColaBear

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our only defense against the adversary (and never forget he is formidable) is the full armor of God...walking close to Him daily, studying the Word daily. indwelling that Word into our hearts and minds. We need not fall to temptation tho we are still human with a sinful nature. and we not fear him because he has NO POWER to steal my soul from the hands of God Almighty.
We need but speak the name above all names...Jesus...claim the Blood of Jesus and the wicked one HAS to flee.
Doesn't mean he is gone forever (we know he keeps sneaking back) but we can continue to toss him away. I believe the closer we walk and surrender and serve the Lord the more we come under attack.
I believe like in Job...that when the Lord allows 'whatever' to come against me...He trusts me to lean on Him and to be an overcomer and come thru for Him.
I DO enjoy the battle cause I know the outcome of the battle.:duel

:comp: I'm enjoying talking also.

The Lord is my light and my salvation;
whom shall I fear?
the LORD is the strength of my life;
of whom shall I be afraid?
Psalm 27:1 (KJV)
:applaud
 

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Just like the 3 wise men, we humans think it is "satan" that keeps us here, it is only us humans, through our own indifference, when it is our own intelligence that talks us out of wisdom.

Today we can rationalize and justify any excuse to act like animals, against what our instincts tell us, declare war, spy, cheat, lie, and stealing are all good business practices no matter the cost to others way of life, or because of it.

Those men thought they were wise, as it turned out from a view of compassion they were only smarter animals. This is why they had to head back east, back to find out that in the eye of humanity, they were just like a child and were every child even the lowest.

The intelligence we here today use to get us out of doing good deeds in social and business is growing in the political as well. Thia Prime Minster steps down after people say he promoted only his own gain, a man who is so learned and intelligent yet still an animal out for self alone.

Humans stand here and shout out in anger at how "God" could be so indifferent to our suffering. We individualy are as indifferent to humanity as "God" is to us.

If things were reversed, and only compassion and equality reigned why would we need to call on "God" for help? Every other human around us would provide it and there would be no need.

KMS
 

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ColaBear said:
our only defense against the adversary (and never forget he is formidable) is the full armor of God...walking close to Him daily, studying the Word daily. indwelling that Word into our hearts and minds. We need not fall to temptation tho we are still human with a sinful nature. and we not fear him because he has NO POWER to steal my soul from the hands of God Almighty.
We need but speak the name above all names...Jesus...claim the Blood of Jesus and the wicked one HAS to flee.
Doesn't mean he is gone forever (we know he keeps sneaking back) but we can continue to toss him away. I believe the closer we walk and surrender and serve the Lord the more we come under attack.
I believe like in Job...that when the Lord allows 'whatever' to come against me...He trusts me to lean on Him and to be an overcomer and come thru for Him.
I DO enjoy the battle cause I know the outcome of the battle.:duel

:comp: I'm enjoying talking also.

The Lord is my light and my salvation;
whom shall I fear?
the LORD is the strength of my life;
of whom shall I be afraid?
Psalm 27:1 (KJV)
:applaud
Inspiring surely, but I was hoping for more of a philosophical discussion rather than a religious meeting.
 

Dogger807

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Again.. no one answered my question . they just threw out definitions that god is great and good and satan is bad and evil.


A good plot for a story. nothing more.

Let me try ... I'll start by personifying satan. What would it take for a human to fight a fight they had no hopes of winning.


1> they are just plain crazy.
2> something they value more than life itself is threatened
a} family
b}children (while yes children can be family they deserve their own line)
c}liberty
3> religion
4> they perceive a chance of winning
5> they are backed into a corner.

tell me.. which of these fits the Christian superstitions? Or feel free to add one that does.
 

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dogger807 said:
Again.. no one answered my question . they just threw out definitions that god is great and good and satan is bad and evil.


A good plot for a story. nothing more.

Let me try ... I'll start by personifying satan. What would it take for a human to fight a fight they had no hopes of winning.


1> they are just plain crazy.
2> something they value more than life itself is threatened
a} family
b}children (while yes children can be family they deserve their own line)
c}liberty
3> religion
4> they perceive a chance of winning
5> they are backed into a corner.

tell me.. which of these fits the Christian superstitions? Or feel free to add one that does.
Maybe Satan has a chance at winning something? One of the things I always found fascinating about Genesis is the idea that Adam and Eve are told by God they will die if they eat from the tree of knowledge. The serpant tells them they won't die. I'd argue the serpant was right and God lied in that particular story. If the serpant represents Satan maybe in that particular battle Satan won something. Maybe Satan is like terrorism. Put one nation up against another nation and the strongest will generally win. Terrorists understand that and so they choose to fight another way. Maybe that's what Satan does....sneak attacks and maybe Satan wins a battle here and there. The question isn't why is it done, but what is at stake?
 
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