Question 6 for Christians

[kal-el]

The Bible doesn't say...and that's the only factual answer I can give you.

Haha, nice deflection. But in all truth, the bible doesn't say that Satan was responsible for this mishap either. For all we know, God could be responsible.

So, you want my opinion? God knew every potential thing Satan could do to hurt Job...the things that did happen and the things that didn't. If God knows all the things that can happen, and God knows how to work any potential happening into His plan and His purpose...if nothing can take God by surprise, and everything is within His power to heal or redeem or sustain you through...there is much more knowledge and power evident than in the simplistic "God knows this one future because he is the one to make this one future happen."

Well my take on it is if he's omniscient, he would know that Satan would drop a house on them, and since he did nothing to prevent it,1 either he cannot, 2 or else he doesn't give a ****. And #2 is more in tune with the bible. So, taking that one verse, you must either concede that he's not omniscient, or isn't omnibenevolent.

Kal-el, I know we've been going round and round, but I hope you can hear me on this:

Yes, it's been quite a barrel of laughs huh? I enjoy a good debate.

your portrayal of God represents an entire theological system that I ABHOR because it forces you to reach the exact conclusions you have and are so angry about. The only thing that makes me angrier than those conclusions are the people who preach them as if they are the most wonderful things anyone can say about God. You might as well say "God put evil men in some airplanes and flew them into the World Trade Center." How Awful! What kind of God does that? Either God is awful and absolutely does NOT deserve to be worshipped OR...there is another way to understand God. A way that shows that He is indeed love, merciful, gracious, holy, redeeming, patient. I suggest to you that there IS another way to see and experience God...but to get there you have to let go of all your preconceived ideas and let God be who He is.

But if you understand him a different way, how can one come to this conclusion? The bible is the source of how we base our understanding of him. And the fact that we both read it, and have come to different conclusions, tells me that it is far from perfect.

 

[kal-el]

Yes, and if we were all jewish than that would carry a lot more weight!:2wave:

Pslams,, Proverbs, More Proverbs. Wisdom of God, Spirit of God.

In these verses, God is recognized as the single creator, showing his wisdom, and when they talk about his spirit, you notice there's no utterance of the "trinity."

The concept of the holy trinity came from the gospels (It couldn't of come before, since we didn't know of the son in the old testament), where God would communicate to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

Actually, the trinity idea was not fully knowable from the OT, but certain events allude to the fact of it. Those verses I gave above were further built upon by NT writers. These very same distinctions are given personality in the form of the carpenter. But, basically you are right.

You're right, Jesus even said "Peter, you are my rock, on which I build my church" (I'm not like all you people, so I'm not gonna look up where that was said."

Yes, he did annoit Peter rock of the church, but Paul was the carpenter's numero uno to carry his name.

The reason Peter is so major is because he's human, and he's the very picture of imperfection. He shows that we don't need to be perfect, all we need to do is honestly really try, and Jesus will love us for it. Sure Jesus scolded him when he commited acts that showed his faith wasn't all that strong, but in the end, he was as christian as he could be, and that was enough.

I guess so, but it doesn't say much for his faith that he denied him not once, not twice, but three times.:lol:

I get where you're coming from, I just wish you'd keep an open mind when it comes to religious issues.

Yes, I'm working on that, but It just really gets to me when people claim they know the truth, and just present a book full of errors.

 

[galenrox]

Pslams,, Proverbs, More Proverbs. Wisdom of God, Spirit of God.

In these verses, God is recognized as the single creator, showing his wisdom, and when they talk about his spirit, you notice there's no utterance of the "trinity."

yeah, I pretty much just stick to the gospels. I think of Jesus as the voice of God on earth, and so I listen to him and him alone.

Actually, the trinity idea was not fully knowable from the OT, but certain events allude to the fact of it. Those verses I gave above were further built upon by NT writers. These very same distinctions are given personality in the form of the carpenter. But, basically you are right.

alright, you're probably right, and for the most part we're on the same page.

Yes, he did annoit Peter rock of the church, but Paul was the carpenter's numero uno to carry his name.

yeah, I'm a bigger fan of Peter, he's more of a Galen-style disciple, flawed, but at least he kept trying.

I guess so, but it doesn't say much for his faith that he denied him not once, not twice, but three times.:lol:

lol, indeed, but who can really say they would have to courage to do things any differently in that situation.

Yes, I'm working on that, but It just really gets to me when people claim they know the truth, and just present a book full of errors.

yeah, just don't judge the religion based off of the religious. Christianity may not be your thing, and that's cool, cause I know you're a good guy, and remember the parable about the good seed and the weeds, I'm quite confident you're one of the good seeds.

 

[kal-el]

yeah, I pretty much just stick to the gospels. I think of Jesus as the voice of God on earth, and so I listen to him and him alone.

Yea, you're probably much better off just sticking to the NT, as it puts Christianity in a little better light.

lol, indeed, but who can really say they would have to courage to do things any differently in that situation.

Maybe, but if you were an actual witness to the carpenter's miracles, and were most certain that he was the messiah, you would think that you would never deny him. And the fact that the carpenter forseen that Peter would deny him 3 times, and even told him, you think Peter would make it a point to prove him wrong.

yeah, just don't judge the religion based off of the religious. Christianity may not be your thing, and that's cool, cause I know you're a good guy, and remember the parable about the good seed and the weeds, I'm quite confident you're one of the good seeds.

Well thanks, but for 1 thing, Christianity is far off from what it was built on. A Christian is an adherent or follower committed to Christ. I don't want to dwell 2 much into this, but modern day Christians are not adherent to Jesus' teachings.

 

[galenrox]

Yea, you're probably much better off just sticking to the NT, as it puts Christianity in a little better light.

No, I really just read the gospels.

Maybe, but if you were an actual witness to the carpenter's miracles, and were most certain that he was the messiah, you would think that you would never deny him. And the fact that the carpenter forseen that Peter would deny him 3 times, and even told him, you think Peter would make it a point to prove him wrong.

lol, 'tis possible, but to err is to be human!

Well thanks, but for 1 thing, Christianity is far off from what it was built on. A Christian is an adherent or follower committed to Christ. I don't want to dwell 2 much into this, but modern day Christians are not adherent to Jesus' teachings.

I wouldn't say that. Something like 30% of the world is christian, and I'm convinced that most of these people are actual christians, but other than the semantic issue of saying christians as opposed to "A lot of christians", point taken and agreed. The "God hates fags" christians really make me sick to my stomach.

 

[doughgirl]

galenrox said, "The God hates fags" christians really make me sick to my stomach."

Well no where in the bible that I know of says God hates homosexuals.

But God does hates sin and homosexuality is sin. God hates the act but loves the actor.
He loves those who commit adultry, who kill, who steal...but does not condone the act.
Homosexuality is sin and sin separates one from God.

There is only one sin that keeps you from eternal salvation with Him.........denial of Christ. Salvation is by grace, and only by grace. The Christian gospel teaches that no one can earn it, and yet it is available to all. That includes ALL SINNERS, including homosexuals.

I am sure you will say I am hateful and that I am not tolerant. But I stand on scripture. Jesus did not say things just to be politically correct, nor will I.

The problem I think is not so much with tolerance, but with Jesus' authority. I would ask you to site scripture where Christ talks about homosexuality as being ok.

Leviticus proves that God calls homosexuality an abomination. The New Testament speaks even more clearly about homosexuality. In fact there is strong condemnation of ALL sexual sin in the Bible, whether it’s homosexual OR heterosexual.
One thing God has never done is change His position about sex sin. This has nothing to do with loving someone or not. This has to do with actions that DO NOT PLEASE GOD.
The Christian religion does NOT teach to hate the homosexual.


I see NO proof by scriptures that that it is acceptable. And if you do...then please site the scriptures.

What I do know is this. God loves us all whether we sin or whether we do not. We make the choice if we sin to separate ourselves from Him. The church’s attitude should be one of love and compassion, based on the truth of God's word.
And if you can show me scripture contrary to what I have said, I’ll re-evaluate my position.

 

[Rev.]

So, you're saying that you can testify in front of a jury at court that you had eye-witness real life encounters with God, and they wouldn't laugh you out of the courtroom, and wouldn't place you in an insane asylum? But I guess, that's proof that God exists, cause you had an eye-witness encounter?

I said nothing of an "eye-witness encounter." But there is nothing I could say that you wouldn't demean or trivialize. Suffice it to say that my son, who's prognosis was that he would never talk, couldn't learn, would never make friends or be able to do anything for himself independantly (according to SEVERAL diagnostic tools and evaluations) is now a typical little boy, telling jokes, learning to read and add (well above grade level), and talking about what he wants to be when he grows up. During his first year of therapy, he never spoke a single word, but then in the space of 48 hours he spoke syllables, then words, then phrases, then sentences. The six therapists who worked with him all agreed IT WAS A MIRACLE. It was clearly and answer to prayer because the medical diagnosis ABSOLUTELY did NOT allow for this kind of result.

My daughters are mentally healthy, happy, confidant, forming appropriate relationships with boys...you know what the prognosis is for child victims of rape. Of the other victims, one girl was never able to form healthy relationships with men and now is on her fifth marriage. Another girl became a promiscuous drug-user. A third is mentally unstable. By all rights, those are the kinds of lives my girls should be living...but they are not. Why? The power of God to heal.

I'm sorry, but no amount of personal experiences on your part will bring proof to the masses, there are an infinite amount of ways an omnipotent God can prove himself to humanity.

There is an infinite number of ways God can prove himself...EXCEPT anything that involves my personal experience? Then that is not infinite. And as far as it goes, there are two or three THOUSAND people who have been privileged to see God work in my life. It's not ALL of humanity, but it's a pretty good number.

How exactly is this inconsistency? Tell me, you have never been spoonfed in church that God is about love? If you say no, I think you're being less than honest.

Quite frankly, no, I was never spoon-fed about God's Love. I learned about God's holiness instead.

Oh, I missed the verse that says, "And God said, "Rape thy enemy." Where is that?

Well in this verse, God commands the rape and murder of the Midianites, and he alludes to the fact that virgins are to be raped as well.

Boy, I certianly hope people actually go to the links you provide instead of taking your word for it. There is no command to rape in this verse:

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18

If you continue to read through the chapter, a portion of the spoils, including the captured people, were given to the Lord. Therefore, rape could not have been allowed because they would have been defiled and unacceptable as gifts to the Lord.

Are you serious? A just God killed seventy men because they looked into the ark...

You referenced this verse:

"But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them," 1 Sam 6:19

(Watch those commas Kal-el)

This is the command those 70 men broke:

"But the Kohathites must not go in to look at the holy things, even for a moment, or they will die." Numbers 4:20

There is nothing unjust about applying the consequences of a broken rule, especially when those consequences were clearly spelled out.

and this just fellow has a temper tantrum and gets mad at a wall, and kills everyone that worked on it.

Here's the verse:

"I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD. So I will spend my wrath against the wall and against those who covered it with whitewash. I will say to you, "The wall is gone and so are those who whitewashed it, those prophets of Israel who prophesied to Jerusalem and saw visions of peace for her when there was no peace, declares the Sovereign LORD." ' Ezek 13:14-16

The bold part is what I added to complete the thought.

Now, this was an interesting verse you chose. It comes from the prophets, which tend to be metaphorical writings. You really have to read it in large chunks in order to see them metaphor or you might make the mistake, as you did here, of taking it literally. That's not to say there aren't some literal events spoken of, but most are couched in metaphorical terms.

These verses come from a section (all of chapter 13) where God is talking about false prophets. There were false prophets running around Jerusalem who were "prophesying out of their own imagination" (vs.2) Basically, what they were prophesying was that Jerusalem would stand firm and there would be peace, contrary to what God's true prophets were prophesying which was a coming destruction in which the city would be laid bare. The false prophets "built a flimsy wall" which was a false sense of security among the people, and they "whitewashed it" which is biblical symbolism for "covered it with lies." The "you" referred to in the verses you quoted above are the false prophets themselves that Ezekial was prophesying against. God was saying they would be destroyed by their own lies. The rain and hailstones and violent winds spoken of in vs. 11 and 13 are symbols of the Babylonians who eventually did come a capture Jerusalem (despite the false prophets assurances to the contrary).

You are really brainwashed if you think these people deserved to die. These were not "just" actions. These were the murderous actions of a bloodthirsty entity.

There were no innocents in those verses. They were all guilty. Furthermore, EVERYBODY deserves to die. The only reason we are alive at all is because of God's grace and love and mercy. The cup is half-full, Kal-el.

It's not like I referenced a verse from a different book, or chapter. Geese, we were talking about the story of the rich young man, not a single or a few verses that were quoted. Give me a break.

Fine, I'll give you a break. But in the future, please reference additional verse.

So, you are arguing that you don't have to believe in the sky leprechaun, just the carpenter? You wouldn't want to **** God off, cause he has an extensive repoitore of torments and punishments available.:lol:

Not at all. In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." If you believe in Jesus, you automatically believe in God.

The carpenter made it explicitly clear the stipulations that you must adhere to to enter the sky fortress. Of course, he later says wealth will hinder your entrance, and later he claims that he is the way to his father. He contradicts himself at every turn.:lol: But I believe that one can accept Christ's teachings without coming to a decision about the carpenter himself.

There are no contradictions. If today I say an apple is red and tomorrow I say an apple is a fruit and the next day I say apples grow on trees I have said three different things that are all true. Jesus used many different ways to show the same truth: eternal life will be given to those who believe.

Well, I suggest you stop your whining, and take it up with the authors of Bible Gateway, for cutting a sentence short, as I did not organize the statement.

Biblegateway (my favorite site for scripture on the web, BTW. I'm glad you quote from there) is not responsible for cutting sentences short. The guy who numbered the verse several hundred years ago did it. Just be careful when you quote verses not to cut off essential information for correctly understanding the thought. That's all.

 

[Rev.]

Because not all denominations believe in the Trinity. The biblical concept of the Trinity develops progressively. But the NT constantly hammers the thought home that God is manifested through the carpenter by spirit. Of course, theser's clear evidence one can dig up to prove the godhead in the scriptures, and evidence contrary. What does the "omni" qualites have to do with the trinity? Everyone, I don't care what denomination, believes that God is perfect. I'm curious, which one of these properties does not describe God's attributes?

You jumped all over somebody for using the word "trinity" because the word isn't found in the Bible, but you use the omni words even though none of them appear in the Bible. The double standard struck me funny. If you really want to discuss the trinity, start another thread.

 

[Rev.]

But if you understand him a different way, how can one come to this conclusion? The bible is the source of how we base our understanding of him. And the fact that we both read it, and have come to different conclusions, tells me that it is far from perfect.

Honestly, Kal-el, this is the best question you've asked so far. But our differing conclusions don't prove that the Bible is less than perfect...it shows WE are less than perfect. I KNOW I don't understand everything about the Bible...and in some cases, my conclusions about some things have changed due to further study or a Holy Spirit inspired insight. God is who He is...and if we seek Him, we will find Him. But we need to allow Him to be who he is and not impose our own ideas of what we think he ought to be. My understanding of God is based on scripture, what others have said about God (tradition) and my own experience of God, plus my use of reason to reconcile the three. If there is a part that doesn't reconcile easily, then I study further and seek harder. I don't just throw up my hands and declare "Well, the whole thing must just be a lie." WE are the ones who are imperfect. WE are the ones who lack understanding. But the Holy Spirit will teach us so long as we continue to seek.

 

[galenrox]

Well no where in the bible that I know of says God hates homosexuals.

But God does hates sin and homosexuality is sin. God hates the act but loves the actor.
He loves those who commit adultry, who kill, who steal...but does not condone the act.
Homosexuality is sin and sin separates one from God.

There is only one sin that keeps you from eternal salvation with Him.........denial of Christ. Salvation is by grace, and only by grace. The Christian gospel teaches that no one can earn it, and yet it is available to all. That includes ALL SINNERS, including homosexuals.

I am sure you will say I am hateful and that I am not tolerant. But I stand on scripture. Jesus did not say things just to be politically correct, nor will I.

The problem I think is not so much with tolerance, but with Jesus' authority. I would ask you to site scripture where Christ talks about homosexuality as being ok.

Leviticus proves that God calls homosexuality an abomination. The New Testament speaks even more clearly about homosexuality. In fact there is strong condemnation of ALL sexual sin in the Bible, whether it’s homosexual OR heterosexual.
One thing God has never done is change His position about sex sin. This has nothing to do with loving someone or not. This has to do with actions that DO NOT PLEASE GOD.
The Christian religion does NOT teach to hate the homosexual.


I see NO proof by scriptures that that it is acceptable. And if you do...then please site the scriptures.

What I do know is this. God loves us all whether we sin or whether we do not. We make the choice if we sin to separate ourselves from Him. The church’s attitude should be one of love and compassion, based on the truth of God's word.
And if you can show me scripture contrary to what I have said, I’ll re-evaluate my position.

Don't assume so quickly. I don't think the bible is as black and white as all that, because Jesus made it a point to explain things in parables to get across concepts, not dogma. Also, the context of the time needs to be taken into account (homosexuality was a much different thing 2000 years ago, it was mostly practiced by married men during orgies, which we all can agree goes in opposition to the faith, and thus the line "Men lie with men as they lie with women" is more geared towards that concept of decedence without humility.
It's reasonable to believe that homosexuality is a sin, but I don't. I believe decedence is a sin, promiscuity is a sin, and since these things are both prominent in parts of the homosexual community, I agree that that's sinful, but I see no sin in a monogamous loving homosexual couple.

And when I mention the "God hates fags" "christians", I wasn't talking about you. I remember there was some family in Kansas who were running for various offices with "God hates fags" as their slogan, those are the types that I was talking about.

But I have gotten the impression from you previously that you do take the bible at face value, when it's not intended to be.
Matthew 13:10-23
Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kindom of heaven, but when it has not been given. For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says:
'You shall indeed hear but never understand
You shall indeed see but never percieve.
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy from hearing,
and their eyes are closed,
lest they should percieve with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.'
But blessed are your eyesm for they see, and your ears, for they hear. Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and fif not hear it.
Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kindfom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately recieves it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among the thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfuitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in on case a hundred fold, in another sixty, and in another thirty."

What I get from this is that the word is not meant to be so simple that the bible turns into a rulebook. It's meant to send out the idea, and to those who get it, good things will come, and those who don't, for whatever reason, no good things come.

 

[kal-el]

I said nothing of an "eye-witness encounter." But there is nothing I could say that you wouldn't demean or trivialize. Suffice it to say that my son, who's prognosis was that he would never talk, couldn't learn, would never make friends or be able to do anything for himself independantly (according to SEVERAL diagnostic tools and evaluations) is now a typical little boy, telling jokes, learning to read and add (well above grade level), and talking about what he wants to be when he grows up. During his first year of therapy, he never spoke a single word, but then in the space of 48 hours he spoke syllables, then words, then phrases, then sentences. The six therapists who worked with him all agreed IT WAS A MIRACLE. It was clearly and answer to prayer because the medical diagnosis ABSOLUTELY did NOT allow for this kind of result.

Well, that is great news about your son doing so well, but if it is because of prayer, why does God show favoritism, and help some, but not others? Surely, there are people worse off than your son who are desperately praying, and nothing happens. If he is omnipotent, and can answer 1 prayer, wouldn't you consider it inhumane or sadistic to not help others when you very easily can?

My daughters are mentally healthy, happy, confidant, forming appropriate relationships with boys...you know what the prognosis is for child victims of rape. Of the other victims, one girl was never able to form healthy relationships with men and now is on her fifth marriage. Another girl became a promiscuous drug-user. A third is mentally unstable. By all rights, those are the kinds of lives my girls should be living...but they are not. Why? The power of God to heal.

Again, there are millions of people praying for miracles as we speak. If God surely answered prayers, like the carpenter so aptly asserts, hospitals would be redundant. Nobody would have any kind of medicine, or health insurance or anything. If a sky genie granted miracles, people would pray for the better part of their lives.

There is an infinite number of ways God can prove himself...EXCEPT anything that involves my personal experience? Then that is not infinite. And as far as it goes, there are two or three THOUSAND people who have been privileged to see God work in my life. It's not ALL of humanity, but it's a pretty good number.

How can God prove himself by doing something with you, and no one else? I think you're mental health would be in question big time. So, do these 2 or 3 thousand people know for an absolute certainy that God worked in your life? Is there any kind of physical evidence? Cause I'm quite sure the people would really want to get ahold of it.

Boy, I certianly hope people actually go to the links you provide instead of taking your word for it. There is no command to rape in this verse:

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:17-18

If you continue to read through the chapter, a portion of the spoils, including the captured people, were given to the Lord. Therefore, rape could not have been allowed because they would have been defiled and unacceptable as gifts to the Lord.

This answer that you gave feels mighty uncomfortable; it doesn't quite mesh together with the loving God concept. God commands Moses to relay this bloody message, and you attempting to paint a rosy picture of it, is an insult to those victims of this terrible genocide. 1000s of babies and children are slaughtered, along with 1000s of women. This was definetly no evening stroll in the park. 10s of 1000s of men and women were slaughtered. Hardly a "just" action. And if they could not have been raped, why would Moses say "save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man?" There is no other clearer way to imply rape besides coming out and saying it.

You referenced this verse:

"But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them," 1 Sam 6:19

(Watch those commas Kal-el)

This is the command those 70 men broke:

"But the Kohathites must not go in to look at the holy things, even for a moment, or they will die." Numbers 4:20

There is nothing unjust about applying the consequences of a broken rule, especially when those consequences were clearly spelled out.

What if he made it a rule for males to cut their genitles off, and some didn't, so they were killed. Would you also try and justify this travesty? And this fella tells Moses that Aaron and his sons must always were underwear when they enter God's tent, or else they will be killed. This ark is kind of a traveling safety deposit box, carrying the 10 commandments, and the people of Israel carried them with them as they wandered for 40 years following God who was in a cloud of fire.

Here's the verse:

"I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD. So I will spend my wrath against the wall and against those who covered it with whitewash. I will say to you, "The wall is gone and so are those who whitewashed it, those prophets of Israel who prophesied to Jerusalem and saw visions of peace for her when there was no peace, declares the Sovereign LORD." ' Ezek 13:14-16

The bold part is what I added to complete the thought.

Now, this was an interesting verse you chose. It comes from the prophets, which tend to be metaphorical writings. You really have to read it in large chunks in order to see them metaphor or you might make the mistake, as you did here, of taking it literally. That's not to say there aren't some literal events spoken of, but most are couched in metaphorical terms.

These verses come from a section (all of chapter 13) where God is talking about false prophets. There were false prophets running around Jerusalem who were "prophesying out of their own imagination" (vs.2) Basically, what they were prophesying was that Jerusalem would stand firm and there would be peace, contrary to what God's true prophets were prophesying which was a coming destruction in which the city would be laid bare. The false prophets "built a flimsy wall" which was a false sense of security among the people, and they "whitewashed it" which is biblical symbolism for "covered it with lies." The "you" referred to in the verses you quoted above are the false prophets themselves that Ezekial was prophesying against. God was saying they would be destroyed by their own lies. The rain and hailstones and violent winds spoken of in vs. 11 and 13 are symbols of the Babylonians who eventually did come a capture Jerusalem (despite the false prophets assurances to the contrary).

You can try and justify all these mass murders and genocides till your blue in the face, even if you are sucessful of justifying them, why would a loving God kill someone for something they did, when he knew they were gonna do it? It's like he takes pleasure in killing, bloodthirsty if you may. If you know someone's gonna do something ahead of time that warrants death, and you're omnipotent, you can stop them from doing that said action. But the fact that he let it play out, proves that he's not loving, but sadistic and bloodthirsty.

There were no innocents in those verses. They were all guilty. Furthermore, EVERYBODY deserves to die. The only reason we are alive at all is because of God's grace and love and mercy. The cup is half-full, Kal-el.

Wow, just wow. I thought I heard it all. I don't even know what to say to this.:lol: