Question 6 for Christians

[nkgupta80]

With all due respect...could you please explain what makes it difficult to choose God?

its not that difficult. That itself is very easy. what is difficult, not only to do, but to understand is what "choosing God" entails. When you get to that point, things become very muddled, very confusing. First of all, most religions in the world, morally say the same thing. They all give tenets of how to live a good life, be a good person yada yada yada. So I can't differentiate between each religion in that case. So either, all religions are in essense true, or we can go on to the mythologies (purported truths) of each religion.

When you claim that not believing in these mythologies/stories/histories or whatebver will send you astray from the "path of God", it makes it hard to reliale which one is true. Every religion has its pundit that claims that they're path is the true one. All the religions have miracles etc. So... which path is it. either it is all paths (Depending on the person). Or... God is jsut being retarded and should make billboards in the sky, telling us exactly which path it is.

 

[kal-el]

You can find evil where you want to find evil and you can find good where you want to find good. Why do you always want to find evil?

Umm, if you're referring to that Randal McCloy situation, people seem to relish in the abstraction that a supernatural puppeteer is pulling the strings, in charge of humanity. Too many people don't try and help themselves; they rely to much on the man in the clouds. If something good happens, God did it, but the minute something bad happens, human free will is to blame. I believe we are in charge of our own lives. You can see this more apparent in the Mid East, terrorists are willing to strap bombs to their chests in order to appease their tenebrous "God." They're willing to commit all kinds of atrocities, hoping to gain entrance to some sky fortress with 72 virgins waiting for them. Get real! People need to wake the **** up. We might not even have terrorism if people didn't have delphic, obtuse religious beliefs. Almost every religious text contains some forms of intolerance and violence. For Christ sakes, Allah orders his followers to kill the "infidels", and the God of the Bible doesn't take to kindly to non-believer's. I think we would have alot less violence plaguing this world if certain religious texts were censored.

The question is not "Can God save all 12 miners?" but "Will God save all 12 miners." Clearly, the answer is no. Why? Don'y know...but since God is omniscient and omnibenevolent (two facts you keep ramming down my throat as if that's ALL of who God is) I will have to trust that His reasons were good ones.

O, I see. God has a plan, he has his reasons, right. We're just supposed to quietly accept that answer. The truth is, if he didn't save all 12, he's not loving, or all-powerful.

I've been where you are...hostile and hating God with every ounce of my being.

When I call God a serial killer or whatever, it's not hatred, I'm simply stating facts. Re-read the OT. It does an excellent job sketching this fellow out to be a murderous, emotionally insecure, intolerant, sky pimp.

Here's a little sample of his hospitality:

Numbers 25:16-17
The Lord said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they decieved you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

I got to a place (of my own doing) where placing my faith is God was my best option. He has since proven himself to me over and over. I was blind before, but now I see.

Ha, what you are sadly trying to portray as factual here is utter nonsense. You think just because nobody can disprove God, that means he must exist. How's about this, you and your little fanclub bring this "God" fellow out of hiding, and have him show his face, ok?

So if cherry-picking verses to prove your position is wrong, how do you justify the fact that this is all YOU do?

It's quite different. Ministers and Preachers have engraived in people's heads because of this "cherry-picking" that God is indeed about love, and would never kill anyone. Most church-goers don't even read much of the Bible, they leave that up to their Preacher. Sure, they all have a Bible, it's important to them, but they keep it at a distance. I am willing to bet less than 2/3rds of all Christians have managed to plow through the entire Bible.

Of course men can misrepresent the Bible. The Bible's infallibility doesn't prtect it from being misused if that is the intent of man's heart. As for me "misrepresenting it" you have made this charge against me several times no, but have yet to support your claim.

If the Bible can be misrepresented, who's to say who's representing it correctly or wrongly then? How can one possibly distinguish which is which? If it can be misrepresented, you must reject all representations of it. There is no way to tell who represented it right.

Kal-el, I NEVER said you mis-quoted Matt 19:16-22. For one thing, you never even quoted Matt 19:16-22, I did! You limited your quoting to ONLY verse 18, and I NEVER said you mis-quoted, I said you mis-represented. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

Again, who decides whether you're representing it right? Unless the carpenter himself swoops down from the heavenly abode and relays a message to you, you're opinions aren't very compelling.

I was not stating personal opinion, I was bringing other facts to light which would bring about a proper understanding of the passage. It is NOT personal opinion that Jesus ommitted the first four commandments, and it is NOT personal opinion that the rich young man valued money more that eternal life.

Dude, God's name is even mentioned until the 23rd verse where the dead Jew is talking about camels and needles. Jesus was very clear on his stipulations to enter eternal life. The man came right out and asked Jesus which commandments does he need to follow, and the carpenter had the ideal oppurtunity to relay to the guy that he needs to worship God and Gawd only, but he didn't. Why wouldn't he at the very least, tell the man to worship God, he didn't think of it?

Jesus said a lot in what he didn't say. It was his teaching style.

Yea, he ****ing uttered in parables, that were confusing now, think how confusing they were back in the day. And he called Peter dull, cause he wanted Jesus to explain a parable for him.

In Jesus' reply to the rich young ruler (vs. 16-22) He was NOT addressing his disciples, he said NOTHING about wealth hindering entrance into heaven, and he did NOT say with God all things are possible.

Uhh, in verse 26 he said with God all things are possible. Re-read your Bible, verse 23 says, "Then Jesus said to his disciples,". He was telling his disciples how wealth will hinder their entrance into heaven.

Then quit quoting out of context.

Huh? I'm not cutting sentences short, the whole phrase is always rendered. It's still getting the idea across. In my experience, Christians always cry "out of conext" whenever their holy book is shown to them to be full of errors. You're just proving my point for me, thanks.:lol:

That would be YOUR personal interpretation. Scripture, on the other hand, tells us that Satan is NOT all-powerful since he will be defeated in the end. He has a lot of power, yes. He can do amazing things, yes. He does not have ALL power, NO!

Obviously this "God" is above him in the higherarchy. God is the alphamale. Satan needed his approval before he can carry out an all-out assault on Job's possesions, and family. I bet Satan can defeat iron chariots.:lol:

"Abundance of power" is not the same as "all-power."

Yep, and this "God" doesn't have all-power either. Can he learn a new trick? Can he come up with a brilliant idea? Not if he's omniscient. Being all-knowing, he cannot learn anything new, as he would already know everything there is to know, and he cannot come up with any ideas either. And that rules out omnipotence.

Because Satan has power to decieve us, and we have free will to choose Satan over God.

Translation: Because God gave Satan power to decieve us, and he already knows if we chose him or Satan. If God loves us so much, why would he knowingly create Satan with full ability to deceive his creation, and he already knows Satan will decieve many? Let me get this straight, did God know beforehand that Satan would drop a house on Job's kids, or not?:lol:

God is not "nervous" about his own fate...but he is concerned about ours.

Why would he be concerned? Being omnipotent, why worry? O, I get it, he created Satan to powerful, and God's afraid that Satan will gain to many followers.

No, I didn't forget them...I didn't need them to provide a context for explaining the limits to Satan's power.

As for the verses in question: "For this reason.." What reason? The reason of some refusing to love the truth and so be saved..."God sends them a powerful delusion, so that they will believe a lie and so that they will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness" In other words, the man of lawlessness will come, enabled by Satan to perform great miracles and signs and wonders and people will choose to follow this deceiver instead of hold on to the truth. So God will let them continue to be deceived unto condemnation.

Then he's not omnibenevolent. I thought he loved everybody? Why show more favoritism, he has quite a history of showing favoritism.

There's a word of warning here for you, Kal-el, as you search for "great miracles, signs and wonders" so that you can be convinced there really is a God. If you find them, most likely they won't be from God.

You claim you've had personal experiences with God, right? How do you know that? For all you know it could be Satan, posing as God. Kinda makes sense, since Christianity has resulted in more violence since it's inception, than any other cause. http://www.history.pomona.edu/kbw/violenceID1/viosyllabus.htm

 

[jallman]

Well, we shouldn't have to be in heaven to be close to God, cause he's omnipresent, he's everywhere.:lol: But seriously, according to Jesus, he's seated at God's right hand, so I take it Paul's seated at his left then, cause he's only behind Jesus and God in importance. Geese, Christinaity should be called "Paulianity". But if heaven cannot appeal to everyone's specific tastes, why call it heaven then? If we have free will, like some wish to pretend, why would a loving God force unwilling people to spend eternity in lockdown in the sky fortress with him?

Kal-el, I am only saying this because I have such a respect for you as an intellectual, but you are terribly misguided and misinformed. Yes, Jesus is at the right hand of God, but only because He is the pure soul who took earthly form knowing full well His would be a life that ended in suffering and pain. Jesus knew full well the bitter taste of betrayal and death and the passage from this life with none to hold His gentle hand as He passed. He had to be the reluctant hero and the sacrifice that would redeem all man-kind.

Paul did not come second behind Jesus and I would love to indulge your attempts to prove where he did...it would be amusing to see you try. From every one of my researches into the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is at the left hand of God. The Holy Spirit is the conscience of the divine and the inspiration of man to meditate on the Holy.

Behind this is only St Peter, the Rock of the Church, the foundation that Christ left his earthly administration in the care of. He was the first Pope, the center of Christianity. In his humility, he could not be executed as Christ was, but rather, chose to be crucified upside down as an endorsement, even in death, of Christ's authority. He was the one, who before the Christ's death, the Christ gave his nod of assent to...

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

He was chosen...a fisherman before and a Pope after he felt the divine calling of God on earth. He was the one whom Christ called, saying....

And he saith unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you fishers of men. (ASV) Matthew 4:19

and he answered. And in so answering the call of a carpenter, made himself central to one of the greatest questions of our time, if nothing else. He was immortalized that day he took up the Great Commission and eventually became the patriarch of the Papal Throne, which we still recognize 2000 years later as an influence in politics, social climate, and theological philosophy. He achieved greatness if for no other reason that he took up the call of God, the Divine, or just compassion in its human form, and followed a "man" of humble backgrounds in an effort to spread a Good News of love, fellowship, and trust in your fellow man.

Do not ever deny St Peter his place in the Heavenly Order, but rather, look at why, spiritual issues aside, his heart made him powerful in love and commitment to seeing mankind become something better. He was a hero and a saint.

Whew...lets continue...Heaven is not a place of lockdown and forced servitude. But if we truly see God as the highest achievement of love and devotion to Creation, then why would we not want to be close to His heavenly majesty? Why would any adherent to the pure and true love that flows from a divine source not want to be close and bask in the glory of that goodness forever? God is not possessive...He has a gift to offer any man who wants to achieve greatness. I personally see His offering of glory and spiritual perfection by meditation upon the goodness that He represents to be the most logical choice. If I am wrong in the end, and it was all a very well contrived thousands year old fairy tale...then by all means, I still lived a life of passion toward benefiting my fellow man. I can die knowing I held on to a redeeming code of respectful interaction with a beautiful and sublime world. If I am right...well damn, I get to go hang out in heaven with the coolest and most influential cats of history plus a god. :mrgreen:

It just seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[Captain America]

Heaven will be just like it was before you were born.

Remember?

Neither do I.

Anything else is just fantasy.

To even pretend to have a clue regarding the existance of an afterlife is just dishonest.

In my humble opinion, of course. :mrgreen:

 

[Rev.]

its not that difficult. That itself is very easy. what is difficult, not only to do, but to understand is what "choosing God" entails. When you get to that point, things become very muddled, very confusing. First of all, most religions in the world, morally say the same thing. They all give tenets of how to live a good life, be a good person yada yada yada. So I can't differentiate between each religion in that case. So either, all religions are in essense true, or we can go on to the mythologies (purported truths) of each religion.

When you claim that not believing in these mythologies/stories/histories or whatebver will send you astray from the "path of God", it makes it hard to reliale which one is true. Every religion has its pundit that claims that they're path is the true one. All the religions have miracles etc. So... which path is it. either it is all paths (Depending on the person). Or... God is jsut being retarded and should make billboards in the sky, telling us exactly which path it is.

I think I understand what you're saying...because the world's major religions have the same basic set of right-and-wrong rules, how can we know which is the true path to God?

The answer is that Christianity is NOT about rules, about relationship. Christianity is a real relationship with God through His Son Jesus. To begin, we must understand that we are sinful creatures, hopelessly unable to live a right life under our own power. Second, we understand that Jesus lived a perfect life and died to pay the penalty for our sins. By faith, we can take Jesus' righteousness as our own and his death as payment for our sin. THEN we are FREE to have a relationship with God because sin no longer stands between us.

Following a certain set of rules is not the way to God...and endeavoring to live a righteous life once we are saved is NOT from fear, but from LOVE for God for the grace he has shown us.

There is a price we pay as followers of Christ. We are no longer "in the driver's seat" of our life. We live yielded to His will and His leading, again NOT from fear but from LOVE.

So again, it's not about following rules, it's about following Christ. He is the way to God.

 

[Rev.]

O, I see. God has a plan, he has his reasons, right. We're just supposed to quietly accept that answer. The truth is, if he didn't save all 12, he's not loving, or all-powerful.

It certainly is easier to accept that answer when you'e a believer, but it doesn't prevent the questions from being asked (even by believers) when tragedy hits. I am no stranger to tragedy, and I have had more than one opportunity to ask God what His purpose was...after my two daughters were raped by a child molester, after my son was diagnosed with a lifelong disability, after the loss of two of my children, after nine months of not having enough money to buy food for my children...the question of suffering is not academic to me, Kal-el.

And I know this: God is powerful enough to handle my hardest questions. He is powerful enough to carry me when I cannot take another step. He has the power to make beauty from ashes. I am also sure that God loves me and wants the best for me. But I know He has an eternal perspective. The difficulties of this life are but a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. In the end, what we go through in this life doesn't matter if I can spend eternity with Him.

I got to a place (of my own doing) where placing my faith is God was my best option. He has since proven himself to me over and over. I was blind before, but now I see.

Ha, what you are sadly trying to portray as factual here is utter nonsense. You think just because nobody can disprove God, that means he must exist. How's about this, you and your little fanclub bring this "God" fellow out of hiding, and have him show his face, ok?

Sorry, for you to say the facts of my life are utter nonsense is simply out of line. I never said I think nobody can disprove God...I said He has proven Himself to me.

It's quite different. Ministers and Preachers have engraived in people's heads because of this "cherry-picking" that God is indeed about love, and would never kill anyone.

You are painting ministers with a very broad brush! I personally have NEVER preached such a thing, nor have the 100 or so preachers I know.

Kal-el, I NEVER said you mis-quoted Matt 19:16-22. For one thing, you never even quoted Matt 19:16-22, I did! You limited your quoting to ONLY verse 18, and I NEVER said you mis-quoted, I said you mis-represented. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

Again, who decides whether you're representing it right? Unless the carpenter himself swoops down from the heavenly abode and relays a message to you, you're opinions aren't very compelling.

Nice way to totally side-step the issue. You told a lie about me. You said I said you mis-quoted when actually I said you mis-represented. This is about your integrity in discourse. YOU HAVE NONE! You twist things and flat out LIE, and when you are confronted you completely ignore what you've done.

Dude, God's name is even mentioned until the 23rd verse where the dead Jew is talking about camels and needles. Jesus was very clear on his stipulations to enter eternal life.

Neither of us quoted from verse 23 on, so you can't bring in material from those verses because they aren't relevant to this discussion. There are other people out there who read this, and when you refer to stuff that isn't there, as if it's there, it's confusing for those playing at home. Furthermore, it's bad form.

The man came right out and asked Jesus which commandments does he need to follow, and the carpenter had the ideal oppurtunity to relay to the guy that he needs to worship God and Gawd only, but he didn't. Why wouldn't he at the very least, tell the man to worship God, he didn't think of it?

To a young Jew who was raised on the commandments, the fact that Jesus didn't quote those first four commandments made them even more noticable. It would be like reciting the alphabet and leaving out three letters in the middle...you notice them more because their not their. Jesus emphasized the worship of God by skipping those first commandments...not necessarily meaningful to us, but like shouting them from the rooftop to the rich young ruler. Notice the young man asked again if there was anything else he could do. If the young man understood that following those six commandments was all he needed to do, he would have walked away. But he knew there must be more. And if Jesus had meant those six commandments were really all it took to get to heaven, he would have repeated them...instead, he upped the ante and told the man to sell everything and follow him. Following Christ is the summation of what we have to do...following those commandments was not the point at all.

Uhh, in verse 26 he said with God all things are possible. Re-read your Bible, verse 23 says, "Then Jesus said to his disciples,". He was telling his disciples how wealth will hinder their entrance into heaven.

Again, we never referenced those verses in our original discussion.

Huh? I'm not cutting sentences short, the whole phrase is always rendered.

Really? Then you must have not noticed the COMMA at the end of 2 Thess 2:9 that you quoted, which is INDEED cutting a sentence short.

It's still getting the idea across. In my experience, Christians always cry "out of conext" whenever their holy book is shown to them to be full of errors.

No, it's only getting YOUR idea across through cherry-picking proof-texting...which according to you only preachers can be guilty of.

Then he's not omnibenevolent. I thought he loved everybody? Why show more favoritism, he has quite a history of showing favoritism.

"For God does not show favoritism" Romans 2:11

 

[kal-el]

Kal-el, I am only saying this because I have such a respect for you as an intellectual,

Gracias amigo.

but you are terribly misguided and misinformed.

I'll "turn the other cheek" and ignore this.:lol:

Yes, Jesus is at the right hand of God, but only because He is the pure soul who took earthly form knowing full well His would be a life that ended in suffering and pain. Jesus knew full well the bitter taste of betrayal and death and the passage from this life with none to hold His gentle hand as He passed. He had to be the reluctant hero and the sacrifice that would redeem all man-kind.

What crevice did you pull this **** out of? Not only is most of this NOT supported in scripture, but it is quite alluring.:lol:

Paul did not come second behind Jesus and I would love to indulge your attempts to prove where he did...it would be amusing to see you try. From every one of my researches into the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is at the left hand of God. The Holy Spirit is the conscience of the divine and the inspiration of man to meditate on the Holy.

Paul wrote 13 letters that take up 1/4 of the NT. Like 16 or so chapters in Acts is dedicated to his missionary travels. Paul is the most important interpreter of the teachings of Jesus. I venture to say (I already did) that Paul is the figurehead of Christianity, or right behind the carpenter. As for the Trinity, it is not even mentioned at all in the Bible.

Behind this is only St Peter, the Rock of the Church, the foundation that Christ left his earthly administration in the care of. He was the first Pope, the center of Christianity. In his humility, he could not be executed as Christ was, but rather, chose to be crucified upside down as an endorsement, even in death, of Christ's authority. He was the one, who before the Christ's death, the Christ gave his nod of assent to...

Yes, originally his name was Simon, but the carpenter changed it to Peter. He was not the leader of the early church, Paul became the apostle to the Gentiles, but Peter was "the glue" that held all the different people together.

He was chosen...a fisherman before and a Pope after he felt the divine calling of God on earth. He was the one whom Christ called, saying....

and he answered. And in so answering the call of a carpenter, made himself central to one of the greatest questions of our time, if nothing else. He was immortalized that day he took up the Great Commission and eventually became the patriarch of the Papal Throne, which we still recognize 2000 years later as an influence in politics, social climate, and theological philosophy. He achieved greatness if for no other reason that he took up the call of God, the Divine, or just compassion in its human form, and followed a "man" of humble backgrounds in an effort to spread a Good News of love, fellowship, and trust in your fellow man.

I'm not arguing this.

Do not ever deny St Peter his place in the Heavenly Order, but rather, look at why, spiritual issues aside, his heart made him powerful in love and commitment to seeing mankind become something better. He was a hero and a saint.

Hold on there buddy.. nobody's denying him anything. Hey, I respect Peter, he was a skeptic, he needed an eye-witness encounter as proof that the carpenter resurrected. That's the way I think it should be, people should not blindly believe in supernatural mumbo jumbo without proper evidence. Look, if Jesus swooped down from the sky fortress, and had a simple chat with me, I'd drop everything and follow him, doing whatever I could to spread the message, but I guess he's had a case of laryngitis the last 2,000 years.:lol:

Whew...lets continue...Heaven is not a place of lockdown and forced servitude.

Proof? I did'nt get my postcard when you visited there?

But if we truly see God as the highest achievement of love and devotion to Creation, then why would we not want to be close to His heavenly majesty?

First of all, an entity responsible for thoudsands of deaths does not deserve to be called his heavenly majesty. God can't be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent if evil is present in the world.

Why would any adherent to the pure and true love that flows from a divine source not want to be close and bask in the glory of that goodness forever? God is not possessive...He has a gift to offer any man who wants to achieve greatness. I personally see His offering of glory and spiritual perfection by meditation upon the goodness that He represents to be the most logical choice. If I am wrong in the end, and it was all a very well contrived thousands year old fairy tale...then by all means, I still lived a life of passion toward benefiting my fellow man. I can die knowing I held on to a redeeming code of respectful interaction with a beautiful and sublime world. If I am right...well damn, I get to go hang out in heaven with the coolest and most influential cats of history plus a god. :mrgreen:

It just seems pretty cut and dry to me.

I don't know, if we're just road-kill after we die, I'll die knowing I lived a full life and strived to help those that I came in contact with. Nor being intolerant (as per the Bible), nor aggressive to my fellow human. I'll know I didn't naively subscribe to frivolous concepts without proper evidence.

 

[kal-el]

It certainly is easier to accept that answer when you'e a believer, but it doesn't prevent the questions from being asked (even by believers) when tragedy hits. I am no stranger to tragedy, and I have had more than one opportunity to ask God what His purpose was...after my two daughters were raped by a child molester, after my son was diagnosed with a lifelong disability, after the loss of two of my children, after nine months of not having enough money to buy food for my children...the question of suffering is not academic to me, Kal-el.

I am sorry for your tragedies, but I assure you I am no stranger to chronic illness or disability. Anyone can be afflicted, Blacks, Whites, Theists, Athiests, no one is protected. I ask you this: When the former Pontiff was sickly, why did he make numerous trips to the hospital? And why did he waddle in his luxeries at the Vatican? If he truly wanted to go to Heaven, and truly followed Jesus, he would sell all his possesions, and could put a pretty sizable dent in world hunger.

And I know this: God is powerful enough to handle my hardest questions. He is powerful enough to carry me when I cannot take another step. He has the power to make beauty from ashes. I am also sure that God loves me and wants the best for me. But I know He has an eternal perspective. The difficulties of this life are but a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. In the end, what we go through in this life doesn't matter if I can spend eternity with Him.

Ok, here's the problem I see, you are portraying all of this as factual, so I ask you, show me the evidence you have that you are basing these assertions on?

Sorry, for you to say the facts of my life are utter nonsense is simply out of line. I never said I think nobody can disprove God...I said He has proven Himself to me.

Alright, if I was out of line, I apologize. But, how did he prove himself to you? I'm guessing you guys didn't engage in a game of twister.

You are painting ministers with a very broad brush! I personally have NEVER preached such a thing, nor have the 100 or so preachers I know.

Let me get this straight, you never preached or heard of a preacher even allude to the notion that God is about love? Didn't you just say that you're sure that God loves you?

Nice way to totally side-step the issue. You told a lie about me. You said I said you mis-quoted when actually I said you mis-represented. This is about your integrity in discourse. YOU HAVE NONE! You twist things and flat out LIE, and when you are confronted you completely ignore what you've done.

A, right, misrepresented. I guess yours is the only true, right representation? About the rest of that diatribe full of calumny, I'll chalk it up to you're having a bad day.

Neither of us quoted from verse 23 on, so you can't bring in material from those verses because they aren't relevant to this discussion.

Sure they are. It's included in the chapter preacher. Matthew 19:16-30, any verse is fair game preach.:lol:

There are other people out there who read this, and when you refer to stuff that isn't there, as if it's there, it's confusing for those playing at home. Furthermore, it's bad form.

I didn't refer to anything that isn't there, do you have multiple personalities, or something? I guess Paul was right when he said that God picks dummies to be Christians.:lol:

To a young Jew who was raised on the commandments, the fact that Jesus didn't quote those first four commandments made them even more noticable. It would be like reciting the alphabet and leaving out three letters in the middle...you notice them more because their not their. Jesus emphasized the worship of God by skipping those first commandments...not necessarily meaningful to us, but like shouting them from the rooftop to the rich young ruler. Notice the young man asked again if there was anything else he could do. If the young man understood that following those six commandments was all he needed to do, he would have walked away. But he knew there must be more. And if Jesus had meant those six commandments were really all it took to get to heaven, he would have repeated them...instead, he upped the ante and told the man to sell everything and follow him. Following Christ is the summation of what we have to do...following those commandments was not the point at all.

Yes, the young wealthy guy gave the carpenter the ideal chance to "up the anty", and make some more stipulations, but he did not. Why didn't he feel the need? Do you know that the rich young man was a Jew raised on the commandments? How do you know they were obvious to him? Jesus neither mentioned or even hinted the word "God" in anything in that dialogue between himself and the man.

Again, we never referenced those verses in our original discussion.

So I'm right about that? Jesus telling his disciples that wealth will hinder your entrance into the sky fortress?

Really? Then you must have not noticed the COMMA at the end of 2 Thess 2:9 that you quoted, which is INDEED cutting a sentence short.

O, I could not find that. Please be kind and quote that, thanks.

No, it's only getting YOUR idea across through cherry-picking proof-texting...which according to you only preachers can be guilty of.

Haha, alls one has to do is read the first 5 books of the Bible to see exactly what kind of hospitality this "God" shows everyone. No cherry-picking needed.

"For God does not show favoritism" Romans 2:11

Haha, what do you call this God fellow choosing Abel's offering and shunning Cains, it seems he likes burnt offerings better. It's rather depressing, but right in tune with the theme of the Bible, that the world's first kids, 1 of them was a cold-blooded killer.

 

[kal-el]

Well I sure hope not. I appreciate the questions you ask. As I said I think I have a pretty good grasp of scripture….and I wont lie I have also questioned things too. God wants us too. You ask good questions.

Thanks for your concern. But I choose to question things, and I would hope that everybody does. Yep, I have run into quite a few Christians on this site that have a good grasp of scripture, some better than myself.

I think it says somewhere that God will hold us accountable for what we know. If someone has heard the scriptures or the gospel they are held accountable. Small children, the mentally handicapped and mentally challenged….and those in parts of the world that have never heard about Christ………I am sure God would never condemn them.

Well, what about people in a vegetative state, that have heard the Gospels, but cannot worship, or get baptised? What I have a difficult time believing is that God performed all these wonders directly in front of the Israelites, yet they still worshipped foreign idols, and they're his chosen people?

I think we live in a time where there are not many places on earth that haven’t heard about Christ. Could you site the exact scripture in Matthew.

I already did, it's Matthew 19:16-30.

Since they are part of the Godhead together I don’t think this would be necessary do you?

What? Leaving out the fact that he's a genocidal thug, is a bit like if you have an acquaintence watch your kid brother, and failing to mention that that acquaintence is a registered pedophile.

He gives us free will.

Can we exersize our "free will" to do something that God considers wrong? And if so, can he do anything about it, without infringing on our "free will?" In other words, does our will override God's will?

He does not make us sin. We sin on our own time. And sin is evil. And sin separates us from God. God and sin don’t go together…..Sin displeases Him. Why do you always blame God for bad things. Do you think it also makes sense to praise Him for good things that happen?

Look, after the creation of the world, God looked over it and said it was good. Lucifer was crawling around in the garden, so either this God was blatanty being dishonest, or else he didn't know Lucifer was residing in Eden. Anyway you look at it, God has to be responsible for sin. Being omniscinet, he would forsee sin making an impact, and being omnipotent could stop all sin. The fact that there is evil in the world means you must compromise some limits on your skydaddy here.

I don’t happen to see it this way. I am so very blessed in my life. To have been a wife and mother and a sister. I have a wonderful family, I have good health, a warm bed to sleep in……..so many people do not have these things. Look at the people who live in fear on a daily basis. This is not Gods fault but mans fault. Man has a sinful nature and we are not good. We could never be good enough to enter Gods kingdom.

Well, either he's responsible for all (and that includes evil), or else he didn't create everything, and he cannot be omniscient, cause if he knew evil was present, being loving and omnipotent could stop it from it's inception.

But no I look at the struggles I face……that God is paying attention to me. And if my struggles help some other person find God then my struggles were worth it. During my moms illness, she faced death with much courage. She was in such pain that she cried daily. Many people saw the faith mom had in God and couldn’t believe her faithful walk with Him. The morning she died…we all were there. She had suffered so much that it really aged her. Kal-el I am telling you……that before my eyes I saw her body transformed, from someone in pain and agony to someone at total peace and rest. Her last breathe was absolutely something I will never forget. She was blessed to see my first breath on earth and I was blessed to see her last. I swear within 5 minutes she did not have one wrinkle on her face. Its still hard to talk about. Gosh I loved her so. I think I became an adult that day, and I just turned 50 this year. Point….I know exactly where she is.

That's a very touching story Doughgirl.

I really enjoy are talks…you’re a really nice person and you’ve been nice to me. Thanks. This will be my last post until next Tuesday….my son plays pro-hockey and we travel around the country watchin him……so we leave tomorrow.

Yea, once people get to know me, most say I'm a nice guy, but I can tell I haven't made many friends here. Hockey?

Have a good weekend…….and read your Bible !!!!! :rofl :mrgreen:

Thanks. You also. I have already read the Bible, but I plan on doing it again. It is a tedious task, maybe I'll buy the cliffnotes version.

 

[jallman]

Gracias amigo.

You're welcome.

I'll "turn the other cheek" and ignore this.:lol:

Do so, but its still a valid and honest observation.

What crevice did you pull this **** out of? Not only is most of this NOT supported in scripture, but it is quite alluring.:lol:

Why dont you go back and read the gospels and try to understand what they are saying. You will find a story of betrayal and heroism...if you can drop your own irrational hatred of my spirituality long enough to show some comprehension.

Paul wrote 13 letters that take up 1/4 of the NT. Like 16 or so chapters in Acts is dedicated to his missionary travels. Paul is the most important interpreter of the teachings of Jesus. I venture to say (I already did) that Paul is the figurehead of Christianity, or right behind the carpenter. As for the Trinity, it is not even mentioned at all in the Bible.

The trinity isnt mentioned in the Bible? Do the words Holy Trinity have to be used directly, or cant you put more complex inferences together when there is mention of a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit? Then fine, you tell me where there is any mention of Paul being the figurehead of christianity...in those words.

Yes, originally his name was Simon, but the carpenter changed it to Peter. He was not the leader of the early church, Paul became the apostle to the Gentiles, but Peter was "the glue" that held all the different people together.

Peter was the rock upon which the church was built. How much more clearly do you want the Bible to declare his position?

Hold on there buddy.. nobody's denying him anything. Hey, I respect Peter, he was a skeptic, he needed an eye-witness encounter as proof that the carpenter resurrected. That's the way I think it should be, people should not blindly believe in supernatural mumbo jumbo without proper evidence. Look, if Jesus swooped down from the sky fortress, and had a simple chat with me, I'd drop everything and follow him, doing whatever I could to spread the message, but I guess he's had a case of laryngitis the last 2,000 years.:lol:

Sure, whatever, kel...keep up your snide comments and your lack of respect when you refer to another's spirituality and cartoonish representations of my beliefs. I am seriously thinking that you arent interested in discussion, but instead you are taking pleasure in persecution.

Proof? I did'nt get my postcard when you visited there?

You know, after this, the rest of this post isnt even worth responding to. When you can show the same respect for my beliefs as I show for your lack of belief, maybe we can pick this up again sometime. Until then, I am done with you.

 

[Rev.]

I am sorry for your tragedies, but I assure you I am no stranger to chronic illness or disability. Anyone can be afflicted, Blacks, Whites, Theists, Athiests, no one is protected. I ask you this: When the former Pontiff was sickly, why did he make numerous trips to the hospital? And why did he waddle in his luxeries at the Vatican? If he truly wanted to go to Heaven, and truly followed Jesus, he would sell all his possesions, and could put a pretty sizable dent in world hunger.

What on earth does the Pope have to do with it?

Ok, here's the problem I see, you are portraying all of this as factual, so I ask you, show me the evidence you have that you are basing these assertions on?

Portraying what as factual?

Alright, if I was out of line, I apologize. But, how did he prove himself to you? I'm guessing you guys didn't engage in a game of twister.

Apology accepted.

Let me get this straight, you never preached or heard of a preacher even allude to the notion that God is about love? Didn't you just say that you're sure that God loves you?

Your original charge was that ministers preach that

God is indeed about love, and would never kill anyone.

No, I have never preached God is about love and would never kill anybody. Nor have I preached God is about love because James says God is love. Yes, I'm sure God loves me, but it's not because he's about love.

Nice way to totally side-step the issue. You told a lie about me. You said I said you mis-quoted when actually I said you mis-represented. This is about your integrity in discourse. YOU HAVE NONE! You twist things and flat out LIE, and when you are confronted you completely ignore what you've done.

A, right, misrepresented. I guess yours is the only true, right representation? About the rest of that diatribe full of calumny, I'll chalk it up to you're having a bad day.

Kal-el, you lied. Plain and simple. Admit it and we can move on.

Sure they are. It's included in the chapter preacher. Matthew 19:16-30, any verse is fair game preach.:lol:

Exegesis is the science of Biblical interpretation. It is an orderly discipline with rules such as "You cannot take information out of one set of verses that actually come from another." The points you made came from verses neither of us quoted. You can't do that. Quote the verses, make your point. It's pretty simple.

I didn't refer to anything that isn't there, do you have multiple personalities, or something? I guess Paul was right when he said that God picks dummies to be Christians.:lol:

You did refer to things that were not in the verses we were considering. You first quoted Matt 19:18. I expanded the pericope to vs.16-22. Further comments you made came from 23-30, which you did not quote, but you acted as if those comments were based on the vs. 16-22 under discussion. Either that's sloppy scholarship, or AGAIN you are misrepresenting scripture.

Do you know that the rich young man was a Jew raised on the commandments?

Anyone referred to in the gospels who were not Jewish were identified as such...the were Romans, or Greeks or Samaritians or whatever. The fact that the rich young man was not identified by nationality shows he was Jewish.

How do you know they were obvious to him?

Because as a Jew, he was educated in the Law from a young age.

Jesus neither mentioned or even hinted the word "God" in anything in that dialogue between himself and the man.

Your point?

So I'm right about that? Jesus telling his disciples that wealth will hinder your entrance into the sky fortress?

No. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." (vs. 23) It is not the wealth that is the issue, it's the man's heart. And as shown in the story of the rich young man, the rich man loves his riches more than he loves God. But since "with God all things are possible" even rich men can get into heaven.

Really? Then you must have not noticed the COMMA at the end of 2 Thess 2:9 that you quoted, which is INDEED cutting a sentence short.

O, I could not find that. Please be kind and quote that, thanks.

Post #18, YOU quoted 2 Thess 2:9 (which you suddenly can't find)

Even him, whose coming is after the the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

See the comma now? So you actually DO quote partial sentences when it suits you...another lie.

 

[doughgirl]

The Rev said, “You are so right about Christians not knowing their Bible. It is so dangerous because if they don't know what the Bible actually says, they are so easily led astray by lies.”

So true. I just read a good book a while back by George Barna called, Think Like Jesus and he made some points that I was shocked at.

He said that survey after survery has shown that Americans-including a huge majority of born again Christians and evangelicals not only do not know the bible, read the Bible but lack a biblical worldview. By Biblical worldview he means thinking like Jesus. Making our faith practical to EVERY SITUATION we face each day. That we act like Jesus 24 hours a day because we think like Jesus and not just part time.

Jesus backed up His worldview with action, and that is what Christians do not do today. Doing what honors God rather than man. Barna says, “It turns out that the Bible speaks loud and clear on this matter. God demands us to think like Jesus. He sites these scriptures…Proverbs 2:2-7 and Colossians 2:8.

He gives some stats in a chapter titled, The American State of Mind that are very interesting, alarming really.

“Among all born again adults about ¼ make their moral and ethical choices on the basis of the Bible. One out of 5 base their choices on what feels right. One out of 12 rely on what parents taught in terms of values and principles. Another one in 10 born again adults do whatever will minimize conflict, while lesser proportions of the group trust various other approaches. In essence this tells us that 3 out of 4 born again Christians overlook the Bible as their shaping worldview influence.”

More….

“Among those who say they rely on biblical standards as their compass for moral decision making, only half believe that all moral truth is absolute. The rest either believe that moral decisions must be made on the basis of the individuals perceptions and the specific situation, or they haven’t really thought about whether truth is relative or absolute.”

This book is very alarming to me because I think it really says a lot about Christianity today. I read it about a year ago and thought Barna was nuts….no way could his polls and statistics be right. After talking to Christians I have encountered in person and online however…….I think he is right 99%.

He says,

“As of 2003, the United States has about 210 million adults. About 175 million CLAIM to be Christian. About 80 million are born again Christians. Roughly 7 million have a biblical worldview. This is just one of every adults in this nation.”

I could go on siteing many other polls and things he says but bottom line…….

“It seems that Christians are more affected by society than society is affected by Christians. Why? Perhaps because more than 9 out of every 10 born again Christians fail to think like Jesus, they think like the rest of the world, so they naturally behave like citizens of the world, too. They are not the salt and light that Jesus COMMANDS us to be because they lack the personal commitment and depth of faith that makes them truly changed, God-driven beings.”

I am curious as to what you think? :lol:

 

[doughgirl]

Kal-el said, “Rev, if you are trying to convert me, I'm sorry, it won't work, unless you can provide some sort of observational evidence of a God. It's in my nature to question things.”

Kal-el, everyone questions things at one time or another. There is nothing wrong with that. I witness to people as I am sure the REV does……..but we are not responsible for converting you. We are not responsible for your salvation. We are however responsible to spread the gospel and to witness about Jesus Christ. What you do with what you hear is entirely up to you. That is where the head knowledge changes to heart knowledge.

You mentioned..

“Look at that incident in the saco mines (I think it's called saco?). 11 miners died, while 1 lived. Everybody claimed it was a miracle and an act of God. Sorry, but if anything will serve as proof that there is no God, this is the closest to proof we will ever have short of an eyewitness encounter. If an omnipotent God can save 1 miner, he can save them all. Or can't? He's sadistic then. Sentencing 11 miners to their death, and only saving 1. I know it's great that 1 survived, but it isn't a miracle, far from it. MCcloy's wits and fortitude got him through this.”

How do you know? You said you wanted us to provide proof. You give us proof there is positively no god. Hoe do you know God did not try to help the other miners?

The Rev you ask one heck of a good question. “With all due respect...could you please explain what makes it difficult to choose God?”

I wonder the very same thing. I think its because the Christian walk is tough and it requires one to give everything to God. We are to look at God as a Father, we should rest in His arms…….go to Him for everything……..TRUST AND HAVE FAITH.

But I think most people today think they have all the answers and god would be the last place They would ask for forgiveness or for help. They rely on themselves and they look at themselves as god. They might say…”God doesn’t know anything….and He surely is not going to tell me that I CAN NOT SIN. SINNING IS FUN. SINNING ISNT THAT BAD. I am a good person…..how could God be mad at me or anyone for that matter.”

And I really think most Christians do not witness because they are afraid. Not of the unbeliever but of themselves that they might be asked a hard question that they might not know the answer to. And they are afraid they would look foolish and ignorant. Nonbelievers think Christians should act perfect that if they fall short they are not Christians. They think if we don’t have ALL the answers that our belief system is false. Who ever said that Christians were perfect that we should know all the answers?

Rev you said, “There is a price we pay as followers of Christ. We are no longer "in the driver's seat" of our life. We live yielded to His will and His leading, again NOT from fear but from LOVE.”

Exactly. Many people do NOT want to yield to His will….they do not want Him in the drivers seat. So Christianity for many is difficult because people do not want to submit. They do not want to accept the free gift offered to them because then they would have to give up the fun stuff, the “sin” stuff in their life.

Lets face it Gods truth comes with challenges. Its not good enough for us to simply embrace the truth and follow it. We show how committed we are to Gods way when we have a single mindedness about seeing Gods truth made known in every place and time. Its not just about clergy and religious professionals who are called to spread His Truth; that is a job assigned to ALL GODS PEOPLE………all Christians. And that I think is what many people have a problem with, spreading Gods word…. so they remain in the closet. They are luke warm……closet Christians.

Kal-el what does the Bible say….or remind us rather?…..That truth is available to those WHO HONESTLY SEEK IT. Those who approach the truth bent on rejecting it may make themselves feel good in the process but they’ll never fulfill their God given potential. God tells us that “those who are humble enough to hear and accept by faith His truth, WILL FIND that ITS LIFECHANGING…those who resist it will be sheltered from it.” Matthew 11:15, 25;13:9

It’s like the Rev said, it’s all about THE RELATIONSHIP……..its not about how many times you go to church a month, how much you tithe, if you do volunteer work, give to the needy, rules, regulations….this and that…its about acceptance of Christ and giving Him control over your life. Its about loving HIM over anyone else…….putting Him first, over family and friends and personal goals and possessions. And when you do this……..Oh my gosh……..the things that happen are amazing. Do Christians suffer? I think maybe more than non-believers do. What is that saying ….God doesn’t give you any more than you can handle. Not true….he gives me way more…so that I might search Him out and rely on Him.

I absolutely do not know where I would be today had I not given my life to Christ. I was a mess. Depression and sin took over my life. And the minute I ask Jesus Christ to change me…….He did. Now I think He tests me daily. I laugh because I can see some of these tests a comin. I have a better hold of my life……and Satan who used to be one of my best friends, (I knew him intimately)………knows he has no control over me whatsoever.

“When the former Pontiff was sickly, why did he make numerous trips to the hospital? And why did he waddle in his luxeries at the Vatican? If he truly wanted to go to Heaven, and truly followed Jesus, he would sell all his possesions, and could put a pretty sizable dent in world hunger.”

Because not only did the Pope put his trust in God, he put his trust in his doctors to make him comfortable. He knew he was dying. He had accepted this. But just because you are going to die doesn’t mean you cant be made more comfortable in the process. And that is what they did for him. Now I am not a Catholic so I am not sure about a lot of things regarding the Pope. I watched a special the other night about him on CNN. They showed his living quarters and they were anything but lavish. They were very simple.

Question for you.....Why don’t atheists do what you think the Pope should have done? How many atheists missionary groups can you name that go out soley to help feed the hungry? How many sell their belongings and live in poverty? Do you think only Christians should be the ones to end world poverty?
I very much respected this pope. I have read many books that he had written and I think he was a godly man, he put Christ front and center.
You do not have to sell everything you have to make a difference in the world.

The Rev said, “Let me get this straight, you never preached or heard of a preacher even allude to the notion that God is about love”

Ka-el God isn’t just about love…………GOD IS LOVE.

 

[kal-el]

What on earth does the Pope have to do with it?

Absolutely nothing, ha, my ex-girlfriend said I'm the most random person she's ever met, haha, I guess she was right.:2razz:

Portraying what as factual?

Uhh, did you even bother to read the original post I was reffering to? I'll take that as a big negative. You were portraying your experiences with God as factual. And I know this: God is powerful enough to handle my hardest questions. He is powerful enough to carry me when I cannot take another step. He has the power to make beauty from ashes. I am also sure that God loves me and wants the best for me. But I know He has an eternal perspective. The difficulties of this life are but a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. In the end, what we go through in this life doesn't matter if I can spend eternity with Him.

Your original charge was that ministers preach that

Yes, and I stand by that statement. I have been to countless sermons were ministers preach that God is love.

No, I have never preached God is about love and would never kill anybody. Nor have I preached God is about love because James says God is love. Yes, I'm sure God loves me, but it's not because he's about love.

Let's see, this God chap orders tons of rapes, has monumental hissy fits at trivial stuff, and uses others as killing instruments. For christ's sake, he kills 50,070 men for looking into his traveling safety deposit box that encased his commandments (the ark of the covenant). This guy throws a temper tantrum and gets mad at a wall, so he destroys it and kills everyone that worked on it, and he cannot find any adversaries, so he kills everyone.:lol: Does that sound like the actions of a loving God?

Kal-el, you lied. Plain and simple. Admit it and we can move on.

O please.:lol: This is so trivial. Misquoted and Misrepresented. At least I never accused you of using wrong definitions.

Exegesis is the science of Biblical interpretation. It is an orderly discipline with rules such as "You cannot take information out of one set of verses that actually come from another." The points you made came from verses neither of us quoted. You can't do that. Quote the verses, make your point. It's pretty simple.

Uhh, you cannot make rules up as you go along. We were talking about the story of the rich young man. Any verse in that story is fair game. You can continue to toss out all these fancy verbal gymnastics at me, but by making up things as you go along, you are further depicting yourself as a dunce.

You did refer to things that were not in the verses we were considering. You first quoted Matt 19:18. I expanded the pericope to vs.16-22. Further comments you made came from 23-30, which you did not quote, but you acted as if those comments were based on the vs. 16-22 under discussion. Either that's sloppy scholarship, or AGAIN you are misrepresenting scripture.

Ahh, Once again, I referred to any verse in 16-30. Please stop this petty delusion you have of me misrepresenting scripture. You are attempting to show to everyone on this forum that you have 1 up on me here, Haha, btw, how do I get to your world, take a left at the unicorn, or right at the rainbow?:lol:

Anyone referred to in the gospels who were not Jewish were identified as such...the were Romans, or Greeks or Samaritians or whatever. The fact that the rich young man was not identified by nationality shows he was Jewish.


Because as a Jew, he was educated in the Law from a young age.

I guess I'll agree with all of this.

Your point?

My point is Jesus had the ideal oppurtunity to state that God must be worshipped in his little talk with the man, but he didn't.

No. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." (vs. 23) It is not the wealth that is the issue, it's the man's heart. And as shown in the story of the rich young man, the rich man loves his riches more than he loves God. But since "with God all things are possible" even rich men can get into heaven.

Where are you coming up with this? Uhh, The carpenter pretty much made it a point to hammer home that wealth will obstruct one from getting into heaven. If he meant that it was a man's heart, and not wealth, he would have said that, it is all in print. It is not up for opinions.

Post #18, YOU quoted 2 Thess 2:9 (which you suddenly can't find)

See the comma now? So you actually DO quote partial sentences when it suits you...another lie.

OMG! I never even typed those words, and you know this! I linked to a verse from Bible Gateway, how childish and juvenile of you, this is such a paltry, non-essential issue, you are blatanly revealing your true colors, noting the fact that in the other thread you lied about me misusing definitions. Why are you being so anal-retentive?

 

[kal-el]

Kal-el, everyone questions things at one time or another. There is nothing wrong with that. I witness to people as I am sure the REV does……..but we are not responsible for converting you. We are not responsible for your salvation. We are however responsible to spread the gospel and to witness about Jesus Christ. What you do with what you hear is entirely up to you. That is where the head knowledge changes to heart knowledge.

Yes, but simply because I voice my opinion, which differs from the majority on here, generally athiests are always frowned upon, which really makes no sense as we just require proof for the existence of the supernatural. Geese, Saul was on his way to persecute Christians (and he's done worse than that), and would've continued, if not for an encounter with the carpenter. Why are atheists any different? We don't stone subapostels, or persecute Christians, or drag them from their homes. Like I said, If Jesus would appear to any athiest, they would be the most devoted theist in a heartbeat.

You mentioned..



How do you know? You said you wanted us to provide proof. You give us proof there is positively no god. Hoe do you know God did not try to help the other miners?

I do not need proof. It is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to. It's a bit if you said that Aliens don't exist, or the easter bunny. Nobody has ever come in contact with one, so it is a perfectly rational assumption to make.

The Rev you ask one heck of a good question. “With all due respect...could you please explain what makes it difficult to choose God?”

I wonder the very same thing. I think its because the Christian walk is tough and it requires one to give everything to God. We are to look at God as a Father, we should rest in His arms…….go to Him for everything……..TRUST AND HAVE FAITH.

That's odd, but I wonder in this day and age, with all the technology we have at our disposal, how we can so easily believe fairy tales that are not grounded at all in reality. It is perfectly sain to suggest that Donkey's cannot talk, no one can split a sea, no water can come from rocks, and plants cannot survive without sunlight (well, that's a fact). As no one has ever seen these things. The bible just emits some really absurd messages and ideas. According to Jesus, if you believe, you can move mountains, are immune to deadly poisons, and can speak in tongues. C'mon this stuff is ridiculous. I cannot believe that some take this stuff seriously. And all the atrocities and mass murders this God is responsible for, like assisting Asa in killing 1 million Eithiopians, and God sending a famine on people for 7 years, and commanding the Jews to stone a man who picked up sticks on the sabbath.

But I think most people today think they have all the answers and god would be the last place They would ask for forgiveness or for help. They rely on themselves and they look at themselves as god. They might say…”God doesn’t know anything….and He surely is not going to tell me that I CAN NOT SIN. SINNING IS FUN. SINNING ISNT THAT BAD. I am a good person…..how could God be mad at me or anyone for that matter.”

Seriously, how can he be mad? If he is omniscient, he knows all, so he foreknows the action that you're going to do, so since he doesn't stop it he cannot be all powerful or loving. A little tidbit, God says there's some you shouldn't pray for, if you do, he won't listen.

And I really think most Christians do not witness because they are afraid. Not of the unbeliever but of themselves that they might be asked a hard question that they might not know the answer to. And they are afraid they would look foolish and ignorant. Nonbelievers think Christians should act perfect that if they fall short they are not Christians. They think if we don’t have ALL the answers that our belief system is false. Who ever said that Christians were perfect that we should know all the answers?

No one thinks Christians need to act perfect, we are all human, imperfect as we are. I just see alot of hypocricy in the Christian religion, especially with these televangilists preaching "turn the other cheek" and "... camels and needles", but, behind the scenes, raking in more money than a ceo of a Fortune 500 company.:lol:

Exactly. Many people do NOT want to yield to His will….they do not want Him in the drivers seat. So Christianity for many is difficult because people do not want to submit. They do not want to accept the free gift offered to them because then they would have to give up the fun stuff, the “sin” stuff in their life.

"Free gift" you're acting as it's a free physical gift. Again, I would have no problem becoming Christian if God were to swoop down and show his mug, but no, it's all a leap of faith, abandonment of all logic and reason. I guess that's why Paul said God choses imbeciles to be Christians.:lol:

It’s like the Rev said, it’s all about THE RELATIONSHIP……..its not about how many times you go to church a month, how much you tithe, if you do volunteer work, give to the needy, rules, regulations….this and that…its about acceptance of Christ and giving Him control over your life. Its about loving HIM over anyone else…….putting Him first, over family and friends and personal goals and possessions. And when you do this……..Oh my gosh……..the things that happen are amazing. Do Christians suffer? I think maybe more than non-believers do. What is that saying ….God doesn’t give you any more than you can handle. Not true….he gives me way more…so that I might search Him out and rely on Him.

I absolutely do not know where I would be today had I not given my life to Christ. I was a mess. Depression and sin took over my life. And the minute I ask Jesus Christ to change me…….He did. Now I think He tests me daily. I laugh because I can see some of these tests a comin. I have a better hold of my life……and Satan who used to be one of my best friends, (I knew him intimately)………knows he has no control over me whatsoever.

If it means anything, I had alot more medical ailments when I was a believer. I prayed everynight that God would erase all these problems. I went to church every Sunday, went to bible studies, and group functions. I wish the preachers would have referenced these abundant verses in the OT where it sketches God as a thug, it would only be fitting if they would've addressed them, instead of ignoring them or writing them off as "out of context" or such. If I took it in context, like they claim they want, I would make God seem like a real asshole then.

Because not only did the Pope put his trust in God, he put his trust in his doctors to make him comfortable. He knew he was dying. He had accepted this. But just because you are going to die doesn’t mean you cant be made more comfortable in the process. And that is what they did for him. Now I am not a Catholic so I am not sure about a lot of things regarding the Pope. I watched a special the other night about him on CNN. They showed his living quarters and they were anything but lavish. They were very simple.

I don't know about all of that. Why didn't the Pope sell all the Vatican's vast wealth and feed the poor? Every time he was sick, he was rushed to the hospital for medical treatment, why not just pray? Why do Roman Catholics blatanly ignore Christ's teachings, and refer to preists as "father" or "your holyness?" Their very own scriptures expressly forbid this.

Question for you.....Why don’t atheists do what you think the Pope should have done? How many atheists missionary groups can you name that go out soley to help feed the hungry? How many sell their belongings and live in poverty? Do you think only Christians should be the ones to end world poverty?

Well, athiests do not adhere to this strict set of rules, we do not believe in going through strife on earth to acsess a sky temple. We do not believe some sky fairy is responsible for everything, only humans are in charge of their own fate. We strive to do the best we can in this life, as it may be the only one we have.:lol:

I very much respected this pope. I have read many books that he had written and I think he was a godly man, he put Christ front and center.
You do not have to sell everything you have to make a difference in the world.

Maybe, but picture if you will of Pope John Paul if Jesus actually returned. Do you honestly think he would submit all of his wealth and power to the carpenter's disposal? I think he would preach that he is a usurper and the anti-christ, and possibly crucify him again.

Ka-el God isn’t just about love…………GOD IS LOVE.

Really? I think this verse says otherwise.:lol:

 

[kal-el]

The trinity isnt mentioned in the Bible? Do the words Holy Trinity have to be used directly, or cant you put more complex inferences together when there is mention of a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit? Then fine, you tell me where there is any mention of Paul being the figurehead of christianity...in those words.

Dude, Paul is either the author or subject of almost 1/3 or the NT. His missionary journies are covered over many books. I dare you to find another character that commands as much or more attention that Paul. Anyway, the trinity is an idea of God, not a biblical concept portrayed in scripture. The OT seems to go to great lenghts to show how God is one.

Peter was the rock upon which the church was built. How much more clearly do you want the Bible to declare his position?

Peter was the leader and general mouthpiece for the disciples. The name "rock" actually appears many times in the NT to describe Peter. Even though Peter lead the pack and took a frontrunning role in the early church, he was not the alphamale. Sometimes, he had little faith. Sometimes he was slow-minded to understand Jesus' parables (understandable) and called dull by Jesus. Once he walked on water with the carpenter and started to sink because his faith waned. Peter's inconsistency. 1. 2.

Sure, whatever, kel...keep up your snide comments and your lack of respect when you refer to another's spirituality and cartoonish representations of my beliefs. I am seriously thinking that you arent interested in discussion, but instead you are taking pleasure in persecution.

Dude, what do you expect? I mean you postulate on the existence of something that's not even been supported by a modicum of evidence, and portray it as if it is fact. I guess I'm supposed to sugar-coat my rebuttals to soothe your frail ego. I think you are a smart person, I just disagree with you on this subject.

 

[kal-el]

Hey Rev, I was re-reading the posts here, and I seen you failed to answer one of my questions. So, I'll ask again, did God know beforehand that Satan would drop a house on Job's kids?

 

[Rev.]

Uhh, did you even bother to read the original post I was reffering to? I'll take that as a big negative. You were portraying your experiences with God as factual. And I know this: God is powerful enough to handle my hardest questions. He is powerful enough to carry me when I cannot take another step. He has the power to make beauty from ashes. I am also sure that God loves me and wants the best for me. But I know He has an eternal perspective. The difficulties of this life are but a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. In the end, what we go through in this life doesn't matter if I can spend eternity with Him.

How can I report my experience as anything but factual? If I go to the store, and then tell you about it, that's my proof. During the last five years, I experienced God's sustaining power. I experienced His mercy and grace. I experience answered prayer and miracles. I am an eyewitness to a living, loving God...and eyewitness testimony stands up in any court of Law as proof.

Yes, and I stand by that statement. I have been to countless sermons were ministers preach that God is love.

Your inconsistancy is hysterical. :lol:

Let's see, this God chap orders tons of rapes, has monumental hissy fits at trivial stuff, and uses others as killing instruments.

Oh, I missed the verse that says, "And God said, "Rape thy enemy." Where is that?

For christ's sake, he kills 50,070 men for looking into his traveling safety deposit box that encased his commandments (the ark of the covenant). This guy throws a temper tantrum and gets mad at a wall, so he destroys it and kills everyone that worked on it, and he cannot find any adversaries, so he kills everyone.:lol: Does that sound like the actions of a loving God?

Sounds like the actions of a just God. Just is one of His attributes, too.

O please.:lol: This is so trivial. Misquoted and Misrepresented. At least I never accused you of using wrong definitions.

Another lie! I never accused you of using wrong definitions...a point which you conceded.

From "Practical questions for debating God non-existence" post #18

I never once said your definitions were wrong

Correct.

Uhh, you cannot make rules up as you go along. We were talking about the story of the rich young man. Any verse in that story is fair game. You can continue to toss out all these fancy verbal gymnastics at me, but by making up things as you go along, you are further depicting yourself as a dunce.

Who's making up rules? It waht debate are you allowed to make points out of material that neither you nor your opponant referenced? Any verse in that story that had been quoted was fair game. If you want to use other verses to make a point, quote them and make your point. You'd get no arguement from me.

My point is Jesus had the ideal oppurtunity to state that God must be worshipped in his little talk with the man, but he didn't.

Since I have been, and continue to argue from the position that it is belief in Jesus evidenced by following Jesus that gets one saved, I care little whether Jesus explicitly or implicitly talked about worshipping God.

Where are you coming up with this? Uhh, The carpenter pretty much made it a point to hammer home that wealth will obstruct one from getting into heaven. If he meant that it was a man's heart, and not wealth, he would have said that, it is all in print. It is not up for opinions.

Now wait a minute. You have been arguing all over this Board that all anyone needs to do to get to heaven is to follow those six little commands from verse 18. So now why is money an issue to you? If I follow those six little commands, it doesn't matter how much money I have because it can't keep me out of heaven. Or are you now admitting that there is more to this story than a literal reading allows?

Post #18, YOU quoted 2 Thess 2:9 (which you suddenly can't find)

See the comma now? So you actually DO quote partial sentences when it suits you...another lie.

OMG! I never even typed those words, and you know this! I linked to a verse from Bible Gateway, how childish and juvenile of you, this is such a paltry, non-essential issue, you are blatanly revealing your true colors, noting the fact that in the other thread you lied about me misusing definitions. Why are you being so anal-retentive?

I never said you typed them. Here is the conversation to this point:

By Kal-el Post # 18 "Why would a loving God allow evil to corrupt those he loves so much? And this verse <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thessalonians%202:9&version=9> shows Satan is all powerful."

Links to this verse: "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," 2 Thess 2:9 (KJV)

By Rev. Post #20 "Nice trick...quote out of context AND switch versions so you can make the verse appear to say what you want."

By Kal-el. Post #22 "That's kinda gettin old. Those parrotted "out of context" articulations."

By Rev. Post #23 "Then quit quoting out of context."

By Kal-el Post #27 "Huh? I'm not cutting sentences short, the whole phrase is always rendered."

You posted a link to a verse that ends with a comma, thereby cutting the sentence short. I rest my case.

 

[Rev.]

So true. I just read a good book a while back by George Barna called, Think Like Jesus and he made some points that I was shocked at.

I've been reading a book I bet you'd enjoy: Dismantling the Myths: Realigning Moral Choices With Faith by Frank Moore.

He said that survey after survery has shown that Americans-including a huge majority of born again Christians and evangelicals not only do not know the bible, read the Bible but lack a biblical worldview. By Biblical worldview he means thinking like Jesus. Making our faith practical to EVERY SITUATION we face each day. That we act like Jesus 24 hours a day because we think like Jesus and not just part time.

Yup. From another book Making Church Relevant by Dale Galloway: "Twenty-five years ago, George Gallup conducted a scientific survey and discovered that only 35 percent of all those surveyed could name four Gospels, 4 percent could name three, 4 percent could name two, 4 percent could name one, leaving 53 out of every 100 adult Americans who could name even one of the four Gospels."

I am curious as to what you think? :lol:

My experience is that he is undoubtedly right...and we knew it was coming. Jesus himself told us "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold..." (Matt 24:12). We also know that "...the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say waht their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Tim 4:3-4)

We see that in the church today...the "seeker-sensitive" movement; the "prosperity" teachings; "eternal security;" "Left Behind." These various teachings hand people all the reasons they need to satisfy their own desires rather than live by sound doctrine and die to self.

 

[Rev.]

Dude, Paul is either the author or subject of almost 1/3 or the NT. His missionary journies are covered over many books. I dare you to find another character that commands as much or more attention that Paul. Anyway, the trinity is an idea of God, not a biblical concept portrayed in scripture. The OT seems to go to great lenghts to show how God is one.

:lol: With all the talk you do of God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence, (without one instance of these words in scripture) I CANNOT believe you are arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity. You crack me up! :rofl

 

[Rev.]

Hey Rev, I was re-reading the posts here, and I seen you failed to answer one of my questions. So, I'll ask again, did God know beforehand that Satan would drop a house on Job's kids?

The Bible doesn't say...and that's the only factual answer I can give you.

So, you want my opinion? God knew every potential thing Satan could do to hurt Job...the things that did happen and the things that didn't. If God knows all the things that can happen, and God knows how to work any potential happening into His plan and His purpose...if nothing can take God by surprise, and everything is within His power to heal or redeem or sustain you through...there is much more knowledge and power evident than in the simplistic "God knows this one future because he is the one to make this one future happen."

Kal-el, I know we've been going round and round, but I hope you can hear me on this: your portrayal of God represents an entire theological system that I ABHOR because it forces you to reach the exact conclusions you have and are so angry about. The only thing that makes me angrier than those conclusions are the people who preach them as if they are the most wonderful things anyone can say about God. You might as well say "God put evil men in some airplanes and flew them into the World Trade Center." How Awful! What kind of God does that? Either God is awful and absolutely does NOT deserve to be worshipped OR...there is another way to understand God. A way that shows that He is indeed love, merciful, gracious, holy, redeeming, patient. I suggest to you that there IS another way to see and experience God...but to get there you have to let go of all your preconceived ideas and let God be who He is.

 

[galenrox]

Dude, Paul is either the author or subject of almost 1/3 or the NT. His missionary journies are covered over many books. I dare you to find another character that commands as much or more attention that Paul. Anyway, the trinity is an idea of God, not a biblical concept portrayed in scripture. The OT seems to go to great lenghts to show how God is one.

Yes, and if we were all jewish than that would carry a lot more weight!:2wave:
The concept of the holy trinity came from the gospels (It couldn't of come before, since we didn't know of the son in the old testament), where God would communicate to Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

Peter was the leader and general mouthpiece for the disciples. The name "rock" actually appears many times in the NT to describe Peter. Even though Peter lead the pack and took a frontrunning role in the early church, he was not the alphamale. Sometimes, he had little faith. Sometimes he was slow-minded to understand Jesus' parables (understandable) and called dull by Jesus. Once he walked on water with the carpenter and started to sink because his faith waned. Peter's inconsistency. 1. 2.

You're right, Jesus even said "Peter, you are my rock, on which I build my church" (I'm not like all you people, so I'm not gonna look up where that was said."

The reason Peter is so major is because he's human, and he's the very picture of imperfection. He shows that we don't need to be perfect, all we need to do is honestly really try, and Jesus will love us for it. Sure Jesus scolded him when he commited acts that showed his faith wasn't all that strong, but in the end, he was as christian as he could be, and that was enough.

Dude, what do you expect? I mean you postulate on the existence of something that's not even been supported by a modicum of evidence, and portray it as if it is fact. I guess I'm supposed to sugar-coat my rebuttals to soothe your frail ego. I think you are a smart person, I just disagree with you on this subject.

I get where you're coming from, I just wish you'd keep an open mind when it comes to religious issues.

 

[Deegan]

"Hey everyone, look at me, I can pick apart religious history, and attempt to make you look ignorant and foolish":roll:

Yes, some people need to hold on to past stories to maintain their faith, and others do not, I am one of those who do not. As I have said before, these stories have become exaggerated, some were lies told in an attempt to strengthen ones beliefs. None of this matters when it comes to faith, when you have felt the presence of a higher power, and know in your heart that God exists. If you don't believe, that's fine, but to pick apart others beliefs, that is a sign of a confused, and miserable person. If you are struggling with your beliefs, and trying to justify no belief system what so ever, that's fine, I would never judge someone for this. I don't know why some feel they have to destroy others beliefs, except to justify their lack of any?

 

[kal-el]

How can I report my experience as anything but factual? If I go to the store, and then tell you about it, that's my proof. During the last five years, I experienced God's sustaining power. I experienced His mercy and grace. I experience answered prayer and miracles. I am an eyewitness to a living, loving God...and eyewitness testimony stands up in any court of Law as proof.

So, you're saying that you can testify in front of a jury at court that you had eye-witness real life encounters with God, and they wouldn't laugh you out of the courtroom, and wouldn't place you in an insane asylum? But I guess, that's proof that God exists, cause you had an eye-witness encounter? I'm sorry, but no amount of personal experiences on your part will bring proof to the masses, there are an infinite amount of ways an omnipotent God can prove himself to humanity.

Your inconsistancy is hysterical. :lol:

How exactly is this inconsistency? Tell me, you have never been spoonfed in church that God is about love? If you say no, I think you're being less than honest.

Oh, I missed the verse that says, "And God said, "Rape thy enemy." Where is that?

Well in this verse, God commands the rape and murder of the Midianites, and he alludes to the fact that virgins are to be raped as well.

Sounds like the actions of a just God. Just is one of His attributes, too.

Are you serious? A just God killed seventy men because they looked into the ark, and this just fellow has a temper tantrum and gets mad at a wall, and kills everyone that worked on it. You are really brainwashed if you think these people deserved to die. These were not "just" actions. These were the murderous actions of a bloodthirsty entity.

Another lie! I never accused you of using wrong definitions...a point which you conceded.

Please. I used the exact same definitions as the other poster did, and you saying that you liked his definitions better is totally stupid, not to mention blatant favoritism. This charge might hold a little more weight than your previous charge. Your other charge that I lied about you saying I misquoted or misrepresented or whatever; it's so trivial, it's laughable.:lol:

Who's making up rules? It waht debate are you allowed to make points out of material that neither you nor your opponant referenced? Any verse in that story that had been quoted was fair game. If you want to use other verses to make a point, quote them and make your point. You'd get no arguement from me.

It's not like I referenced a verse from a different book, or chapter. Geese, we were talking about the story of the rich young man, not a single or a few verses that were quoted. Give me a break.

Since I have been, and continue to argue from the position that it is belief in Jesus evidenced by following Jesus that gets one saved, I care little whether Jesus explicitly or implicitly talked about worshipping God.

So, you are arguing that you don't have to believe in the sky leprechaun, just the carpenter? You wouldn't want to **** God off, cause he has an extensive repoitore of torments and punishments available.:lol:

Now wait a minute. You have been arguing all over this Board that all anyone needs to do to get to heaven is to follow those six little commands from verse 18. So now why is money an issue to you? If I follow those six little commands, it doesn't matter how much money I have because it can't keep me out of heaven. Or are you now admitting that there is more to this story than a literal reading allows?

The carpenter made it explicitly clear the stipulations that you must adhere to to enter the sky fortress. Of course, he later says wealth will hinder your entrance, and later he claims that he is the way to his father. He contradicts himself at every turn.:lol: But I believe that one can accept Christ's teachings without coming to a decision about the carpenter himself.

I never said you typed them. Here is the conversation to this point:



You posted a link to a verse that ends with a comma, thereby cutting the sentence short. I rest my case.

Well, I suggest you stop your whining, and take it up with the authors of Bible Gateway, for cutting a sentence short, as I did not organize the statement.

 

[kal-el]

:lol: With all the talk you do of God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence, (without one instance of these words in scripture) I CANNOT believe you are arguing against the doctrine of the Trinity. You crack me up! :rofl

Because not all denominations believe in the Trinity. The biblical concept of the Trinity develops progressively. But the NT constantly hammers the thought home that God is manifested through the carpenter by spirit. Of course, theser's clear evidence one can dig up to prove the godhead in the scriptures, and evidence contrary. What does the "omni" qualites have to do with the trinity? Everyone, I don't care what denomination, believes that God is perfect. I'm curious, which one of these properties does not describe God's attributes?