• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Question 6 for Christians

alphamale

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What is Heaven? Is it a place where people will have human form? Will people recognize their friends and relatives? What will they do for eternity? Play basketball? Go out for a pizza? Sing hymns? Watch TV? Study French? What can you DO that lasts for eternity? Just float around as a gauzy haze, feeling contented?
 

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
It would be really nice to know for sure wouldnt it?

I'll tell you what I think.

Heaven is a perfect place so I do not believe people who have passed can see what is going on down here on earth. I have heard people say, "Oh they (their loved one) are watching this right now and they are so happy."

Don"t believe it.

Why... if heaven was perfect would God allow our loved ones to watch our suffering here on earth? My mother passed away last fall. Many sad things have happened to our family since she died. If she knew those things....she wouldnt be happy but be crying her eyes out. She would be sad, grieving, she would worry. It says in the Bible there will be NO TEARS IN HEAVEN.....

These are scriptural...


In heaven there will be no death.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. . . there shall be no more death (Revelation 20:14, 21:4).Sadness and pain will be a thing of the past for there will be no tears in this new heaven.


No Tears
And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes . . . nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be nor more pain, for the former things have passed away (Revelation 21:4).

Then the Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from all faces, and the disgrace of His people He will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken (Isaiah 25:8).



Free From Impurity

Heaven will be pure.

But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life (Revelation 21:27).



Free From Darkness

Heaven is a place that is free from darkness.

"And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever (Revelation 22:5)."



Home Of Righteousness

Scripture calls heaven the home of righteousness.

"But in keeping with His promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Peter 3:13)".


Reunion With Saved Loved Ones

It will be a place where saved loved ones will be re-united.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever (1 Thessalonians 4:17)."


Perfect Rest

Heaven will be a place of perfect rest.

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord." "Yes," says the Spirit, "They will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them" (Revelation 14:13).


Believers Will Be Perfected

Heaven will also be the place where perfected believers will live. The Bible says that believers who enter heaven will be changed.


"Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51).



Body Changed

The bodies of believers will be changed. They will be like that of the resurrected Christ. The Bible says.

"Beloved, we are God's children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when He is revealed, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is" (1 John 3:2)



All Our Needs Met

Heaven will be a place where all of our needs will be met.


"They will hunger no more, and thirst no more; the sun will not strike them, nor any scorching heat; for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Revelation 7:16-17).


We Shall See God!

In heaven, we shall see God. Jesus said.


Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God (Matthew 5:8).


Jesus said believers will be with Him.


And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also (John 14:3).



Face To Face

The Apostle Paul spoke of a day when we will be face to face with God.

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12).



Service

Although heaven will be a place of rest there is still service to God that will be performed.


And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him (Revelation 22:3).


Worship

Heaven is an opportunity where we will have perfect worship of God.


But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him (John 4:23).


Experience The Richness Of His Grace

The Bible says that believers will continually experience the riches of God's grace in heaven.


So that in the ages to come He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:7).


Singing

Singing will be a part of our heavenly experience.


And they sang the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying (Revelation 15:3).



Ruling

We will rule with the Lord in the next life.


If we endure, we shall also reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:12).

Eating And Drinking

It is possible, though not necessary, to eat and drink in heaven.

And let him who thirsts come, And whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely (Revelation 22:17).

Down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations (Revelation 22:2).


No Boredom


Eternity will not be boring. Believers will be busy as servants of the most high God.

For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them (Revelation 7:15).
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well, we shouldn't have to be in heaven to be close to God, cause he's omnipresent, he's everywhere.:lol: But seriously, according to Jesus, he's seated at God's right hand, so I take it Paul's seated at his left then, cause he's only behind Jesus and God in importance. Geese, Christinaity should be called "Paulianity". But if heaven cannot appeal to everyone's specific tastes, why call it heaven then? If we have free will, like some wish to pretend, why would a loving God force unwilling people to spend eternity in lockdown in the sky fortress with him?

Although heaven will be a place of rest there is still service to God that will be performed.
Hahaha, I don't even wanna know what that service is.....
 

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
“Geese, Christinaity should be called "Paulianity".”
Why do you say that?


“But if heaven cannot appeal to everyone's specific tastes, why call it heaven then?”

Because it is not about us, it is about our creator. And the things I listed….what of those would not fit anyones taste? No pain and suffering....


“If we have free will, like some wish to pretend, why would a loving God force unwilling people to spend eternity in lockdown in the sky fortress with him?”

Tell me how God forces anyone to do anything? And we do all have free will to choose the actions that we wish to take. I wouldn’t call heaven a lockdown…..and you tell me what the alternative to heaven is? You want to spend time away from God for all eternity? Then reject Christ and you will. Want the list of things in scripture that happen to people who reject God? :rofl
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
doughgirl said:
Why do you say that?
Because Paul is the beacon of the Christian faith. Actually, I can name a few people who should be idolized by Christians. Eve of course, and Judas Escariot. For if not for Judas, Christ would not have been handed over to be crucified. And I can't believe all of the Gospel's place his name at the end of the list of disciples.



Because it is not about us, it is about our creator.
Haha, Paul took a little break from demeaning women and said there were 3 heavens. That's a bit like saying my house is about the builder of it, a construction company.:lol: If heavens about God, and he constructed it at the same time that he created earth. So, if it's just about him, he would've been hanging out in heaven before time.

And the things I listed….what of those would not fit anyones taste? No pain and suffering....
Free from darkness- I'm sure there's some nocturnal people, who cannot be subject to light. Service and singing- why should anyone perform anything in heaven, especially to an omnipotent creator, what is he lacking in something? And some do not like singing, is God gonna force evryone up there to sing? As for the rest, if God needs worship, he should have created robots and programmed them not to sin, alot could have been avoided then. Surely an omniscient creator would know this.




Tell me how God forces anyone to do anything?
Ok, say a Christian doesn't like the idea of singing, and wishes not to go to heaven (totally hypothetical), but then the Bible says all Christians go to heaven, so this fellow has no choice but to go. And that infringes on "free will."

And we do all have free will to choose the actions that we wish to take.
Uhh, if an omniscinet being knows our actions in the future, we do not.


I wouldn’t call heaven a lockdown…..and you tell me what the alternative to heaven is?
Well, according to mythology, the alternative is the burning furnace.


You want to spend time away from God for all eternity?
How can I, he's omnipresent.:lol:

Then reject Christ and you will.
Jesus says you don't have to believe in him or the skydaddy to enter the castle.


Want the list of things in scripture that happen to people who reject God? :rofl
Ha, seeing is how the bible is a fictional piece of bullshit, God has at his disposal an extensive list of atrocities at his command. And as typical, he won't hesistate on dishing them out.
 

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
“Because Paul is the beacon of the Christian faith.”
Jesus Christ IS THE CHRISTIAN FAITH….not Paul. Paul however did shape Christanity and even before he became a believer his actions were important. He persecuted Christians left and right. But Jesus Christ changed Paul. From the time he met Christ he spread the gospel especially among the Gentiles. The whole good news about Paul is the fact that he turned his life around. “The Good News” is about forgiveness and eternal life and that it is a free gift from God. It's available to all people. It's life changing…just look at Pauls life and how he was changed. But Christians don’t worship Paul and if they do they are wrong biblically speaking. Christ is the only one to worship and no one else.


“Actually, I can name a few people who should be idolized by Christians.”
No mortal man or anything else should be idolized by Christians. That is against one of Gods Commandments….to worship and have no idols.

It is wrong to allow any created thing, including a human being, to become more important to us than our Creator. We learn this in the first Commandment.



“For if not for Judas, Christ would not have been handed over to be crucified.”

Christ could have gotten himself out of His predicament. He can do anything. He knew He had to be sacrificed for mankind. He had performed miracles before…….and He could have that day as well. He could have run when they came to get Him. He could have lied when they asked Him if He was God. He could have lied to those who questioned Him. Judas did nothing really. He killed himself because He realized after what He had done……..that indeed Jesus was the Christ that he had betrayed God.

“And I can't believe all of the Gospel's place his name at the end of the list of disciples.”
The order doesn’t matter. Christ hand picked them all every one. and He loved them all.


“Ok, say a Christian doesn't like the idea of singing, and wishes not to go to heaven (totally hypothetical), but then the Bible says all Christians go to heaven, so this fellow has no choice but to go. And that infringes on "free will."
God knows what is in our hearts. And if you open yourself up and let the Holy Spirit in He changes you. You want to worship HIM. If you accept Christ and you ask Him to forgive you, to come into your heart, to change you, to make you new…..then salvation is yours. I would presume everyone in Heaven has a glorious voice and besides God wouldn’t care if you sang off key the whole time. I would do anything to glorify Him and most Christians feel this way.

“Uhh, if an omniscinet being knows our actions in the future, we do not.”
God knows the path we will eventually choose, but I do not believe that He intervenes in our decisions.

“ Jesus says you don't have to believe in him or the skydaddy to enter the castle.’
Then show me scripture where Jesus says this…. What book, what chapter, what verse does Jesus ever say deny me and you're in?
“Ha, seeing is how the bible is a fictional piece of bullshit, God has at his disposal an extensive list of atrocities at his command. And as typical, he won't hesistate on dishing them out.”
Well think what you wish, you have free will. But you are here in this site asking questions……….that does say something maybe even you won’t admit.

God holds each of us accountable for what we know and what we've done with that knowledge.

"So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12).

God holds us accountable for our words, actions and thoughts. Psalm 139, says "O Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, and are intimately acquainted with all my ways".


If I were you I might wonder if mocking God is such a good idea?
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
doughgirl said:
Jesus Christ IS THE CHRISTIAN FAITH….not Paul.
According to the bible, Paul seems not to think so, actually, I think he has an ego problem. :lol:


Paul however did shape Christanity and even before he became a believer his actions were important.
Yep, he was a pharissee and persecuted the very same people who worship him now.


He persecuted Christians left and right.
Yep. And dragged converts from their houses too.

But Jesus Christ changed Paul. From the time he met Christ he spread the gospel especially among the Gentiles.
Yep, the carpenter soared down to earth to recruit Paul for his leadership mission. He was being less than honest with king Agrippa about his meeting with the carpenter. Now if Jesus would appear and talk to you, you would think that you would make it a point to remember every single word he uttered? Ha, king Agrippa thinks Paul's a looney, I wonder why?

The whole good news about Paul is the fact that he turned his life around.
Yes, so it says, via an eye-witness encounter. So why be so hard on athiests, as they would surely follow God if his bastard son appeared to them? Paul first thought Jesus was an imposter. His disciples needed to see him post-resurrection to believe. Why are they any different? In fact, you Christians are being quite hypocritical condemning atheists for wanting proof, when Paul, and the 11 disciples needed proof.

“The Good News” is about forgiveness and eternal life and that it is a free gift from God.
Once again, a 3rd party cannot forgive a sin. What a price people must pay in order to live eternally. I see why Christianity is so alluring, it gives you to options- go to heaven or go to hell. There is no 3rd option. (Well according to Paul there's 3 heavens)


It's available to all people.
Nope. The bible states he planned a day of punishment for the wicked.


It's life changing…just look at Pauls life and how he was changed.
Yea I'm sure most everyone's life would change if they were confronted with the carpenter.LOL

But Christians don’t worship Paul and if they do they are wrong biblically speaking. Christ is the only one to worship and no one else.
Ha, I think they need to worship Eve or Judas Escariot.



No mortal man or anything else should be idolized by Christians. That is against one of Gods Commandments….to worship and have no idols.
Yet another example of the pot painting the kettle black.

It is wrong to allow any created thing, including a human being, to become more important to us than our Creator. We learn this in the first Commandment.
O, so right after God issues those commandments, Moses kills an Egyptian. But later on, God tries to kill Moses for the stupid reason that his kid is not circumsized. So his wife circumsizes the kid on the spot, hence God let's his hitman Moses go. Such compassion!LOL



Christ could have gotten himself out of His predicament.
Then why didn't he?


He can do anything.
False. He could not do any miracles in his hometown.

He knew He had to be sacrificed for mankind.
Yes, and as he was nailed to the cross, he seems to have a change of heart as he cries out for the sky daddy. What happens next? Absolutely nothing.


He had performed miracles before…….
So did Peter, Paul, all the rest of the disciples, witches, magicians. You name it, magic tricks grace the pages of the holy book.:lol:


and He could have that day as well.
Moot point. If he could, why didn't he, unless of course he's into pain.

He could have run when they came to get Him.
Seeing is he was probably starving as he was fasting, they would've caught him quickly.

He could have lied when they asked Him if He was God.
I assume you're reffering to Pilate asking him, yet another contradiction in the Gospels. In some, he says nothing, in another he claims he is God, in another he claims he's the son.


He could have lied to those who questioned Him.
Why didn't he? Surely an innocent man would lie to save his ***. He must have an ego problem, since he didn't admit he was a whackjob.

Judas did nothing really. He killed himself because He realized after what He had done……..that indeed Jesus was the Christ that he had betrayed God.
Yea right, if not for Judas, Jesus might not have died when he did, or if at all. And what the hell does Judas get for his noble deed, hell.:lol:


The order doesn’t matter. Christ hand picked them all every one. and He loved them all.
Yes, but they all had to abandon their families. 2 of them had no problem with leaving their father on a fishing boat.:lol:



God knows what is in our hearts.
I sure hope so.

And if you open yourself up and let the Holy Spirit in He changes you. You want to worship HIM. If you accept Christ and you ask Him to forgive you, to come into your heart, to change you, to make you new…..then salvation is yours.
Negative, Jesus says to enter life obey the commandments. He mentions nothing about asking God's forgiveness or any other nonsense.

I would presume everyone in Heaven has a glorious voice and besides God wouldn’t care if you sang off key the whole time.
Wow, so poetic, to bad there's not a shred of evidence of such a place.


I would do anything to glorify Him and most Christians feel this way.

Sell all your possessions and give to the poor, let your enemies walk all over you, don't buy groceries or cook, don't worry about tomorrow, and cancel your health insurance.


God knows the path we will eventually choose, but I do not believe that He intervenes in our decisions.
Well, some people will go to hell, right? Then if he doesn't intervene to set them on the right path, he either can't, or won't.


Then show me scripture where Jesus says this…. What book, what chapter, what verse does Jesus ever say deny me and you're in?
Matthew 19:16-17
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only 1 who is good." "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments. "Which ones?" The man inquired. "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself."
He doesn't say "deny me and you're in" but he doesn't even mention you need to believe.

Well think what you wish, you have free will.
It seems like it, but not if God already knows what we are gonna do. If God knew a thousand years ago that I would type this sentence, I have to, I don't have a choice.

But you are here in this site asking questions……….that does say something maybe even you won’t admit.
Uhh, I'll be right up there worshipping if God makes a cameo appearance.



God holds each of us accountable for what we know and what we've done with that knowledge.
What a great guy.


God holds us accountable for our words, actions and thoughts. Psalm 139, says "O Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, and are intimately acquainted with all my ways".
Wow, you can quote 1 bible verse. For every 1 verse you post, I bet I can post 2 gruesome or absurd ones.

If I were you I might wonder if mocking God is such a good idea?
If I were you I would wonder why I put so much stock in a book of fairy tales.
 
Last edited:

alphamale

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What if after 100 trillion years of eternal life, someone wants out - is he allowed to die? The idea of eternal life is almost as scary as that of death.
 

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
“Yep, he was a pharissee and persecuted the very same people who worship him.”
Who do you think worships Paul?

Christians worship Jesus Christ…and no one else. If they do worship something else they break the first and Greatest Commandment.


“So why be so hard on athiests, as they would surely follow God if his bastard son appeared to them?”
Well I would think anyone would if Jesus appeared before them and not just atheists. There probably has never been a person that has ever lived that did not at one time or another doubt and ask questions.

Jesus said to Thomas, "Because you have seen me you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
But Jesus told Thomas that saving faith is rooted in belief in Christ. Specifically, that is belief that Jesus is the Son of God. There are no "better" or "worse" kinds of faith.

There is nothing wrong with questioning. The very fact that we have questions can actually lead us to faith that Jesus is the Son of God (John 1:18) which can enable us to live faithfully in the face of lifes biggest questions. I do not know all the answers, nor do I care if I never get all the answers during my life on earth. One day I will. I have faith in the One who bears the Name Christ…. The ONE you so mocking call Gods bastard son.

Amazing fact…. that many of those who followed Christ died standing up for His Name. I think all but one of the disciples were murdered. Did they willingly die for a lie?


“His disciples needed to see him post-resurrection to believe. Why are they any different? In fact, you Christians are being quite hypocritical condemning atheists for wanting proof, when Paul, and the 11 disciples needed proof.”
First of all who is condemning atheists? I have never condemned an atheist? They have free wills to decide what to believe for themselves. If anyone condemns them they do it to themselves. Christ will judge, He is the ULTIMATE and FINAL judge not me. As Christians we can judge a persons actions….but we do not have the authority to judge HEARTS not even our own.

Everyone will have to be judged by God. (Acts 17:31)
“He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice.”


In Psalms 96:13 it says,
“He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His truth.”
The Truth is Christ and He made it plainly clear in scripture what His word was.

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12


Jesus said...."He who rejects Me, and does not recieve My words, has that which judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." John 12:48

And God says nobody will have an excuse to offer on judgment day.
(Romans 1:19-20)

You know I am trying to the best of my abilities to answer some of your questions. I am not a biblical scholar, nor do I need be to grasp the important parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ, or to explain it. No one on earth can give you the answers to all your questions.

But I sense by the tone of your questions that you are a bit hostile towards Christians and the faith in general. Why I do not know...and do not need to know. When I talk to people of different faiths I am not hostile to them, I do not make fun of their faith....even though I might find that faith to be a false one. I do not know what your problem is........but I will pray that God softens your heart and that the Holy Spirit guides you to places where maybe you can get answers to your questions.

God Bless
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
doughgirl said:
Who do you think worships Paul?
Well according to Paul, you need to worship him:

1 Corinthians 11:1
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
I highly doubt Jesus would condone the former pharissee Saul watching the subapostle Stephen get stoned to death, and Saul dragging Christians out of their homes to be persecuted. And Paul says here that you only need to worry about following him, he'll just worry about following Christ.


Christians worship Jesus Christ…and no one else.
What about that conceited, omnibenevolent fellow sitting in a cloudy throne?

If they do worship something else they break the first and Greatest Commandment.
Agreed.



Well I would think anyone would if Jesus appeared before them and not just atheists.
Of course, if atheists believe, you know it's real, cause they require proof.

There probably has never been a person that has ever lived that did not at one time or another doubt and ask questions.
Now you're starting to get it; these "doubters" needed observational evidence before committing to an obsecure belief. Paul thought that Jesus was an imposter, before his run in with the carpenter, then after he came face to face with Jesus, he converted, as he was shown irrefutable proof. The disciple Thomas had to place his hands on Jesus' hip and wounds to believe. Going back to the OT, while the Jews were wandering for 40 years, God performed many miraculous signs directly in front of them, but they were a stubborn people, THEY STILL WORSHIPPED IDOLS, even after all that! I think even the most harcore of atheists would believe if God performed any miracle in front of them. And afterwards, Jesus tells Thomas that because he saw him, he believes. So, even Jesus knows that some require evidence before committing to a belief.


But Jesus told Thomas that saving faith is rooted in belief in Christ. Specifically, that is belief that Jesus is the Son of God. There are no "better" or "worse" kinds of faith.
Actually, according to Paul, God only picks idiots to be of the Christian faith.


There is nothing wrong with questioning.
Amen to that. That's how most things were invented, people questioning things.


The very fact that we have questions can actually lead us to faith that Jesus is the Son of God (John 1:18) which can enable us to live faithfully in the face of lifes biggest questions. I do not know all the answers, nor do I care if I never get all the answers during my life on earth. One day I will. I have faith in the One who bears the Name Christ…. The ONE you so mocking call Gods bastard son.
Very poetic. Be sure to follow Jesus' teachings then, let people walk all over you, love those who spit in your face, if someone robs your house, give them your car too, don't bury dead reletives (The dead will bury their own dead:lol: ) If you look at the oppositte sex lustfully, gouge out your eye, accumulate no wealth or possesions, make no plans (don't worry about tomorrow), Let everyone know that you are the light of the world (I'm sure you'll attract plenty of friends :lol: ), think that everything you do is a sin and you constantly need forgiveness, don't enjoy this world at all- spend every waking hour preparing for heaven, and lastly, make sure you believe that someone else bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.:lol:

Amazing fact…. that many of those who followed Christ died standing up for His Name.
Because they had proof. Do not think for a minute if they only heard mystical stories of Jesus, that they would have died for his name. For cryin out loud, the carpenter defyied gravity, fed a few thousand with little, turned water into wine, and walked around performing miracles like he was some kind of genie in a lamp.

I think all but one of the disciples were murdered.
Are you talking about the hero Judas? If you are, each Gospel contradicts itself in exactly how he dies.

Did they willingly die for a lie?
Once again, they had proof. If a Santa Clause that performed miracles like he was handing out presents, practiced them in front of anyone, I'm sure we'd believe too.



First of all who is condemning atheists? I have never condemned an atheist?
Christians are the epitome of hypocricy. Paul did not believe, was a deniar, until presented with evidence. Atheists just require evidence also.


They have free wills to decide what to believe for themselves. If anyone condemns them they do it to themselves.
Uhh, I have never heard of an atheist condemning another atheist.

Christ will judge,
Yes, and he does alot of that, O wait, On his sermon on the mountain, he said not to judge.

He is the ULTIMATE and FINAL judge not me. As Christians we can judge a persons actions….but we do not have the authority to judge HEARTS not even our own.
Man, it would help to be a lawyer if you want to convert to Christianity, as they sure do judge alot. I bet heaven is like a courtroom setting.


Everyone will have to be judged by God. (Acts 17:31)
“He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice.”


In Psalms 96:13 it says,
“He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in His truth.”
The Truth is Christ and He made it plainly clear in scripture what His word was.

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12


Jesus said...."He who rejects Me, and does not recieve My words, has that which judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." John 12:48

And God says nobody will have an excuse to offer on judgment day.
(Romans 1:19-20)
Wow, excellent quotes. They all contradict Jesus' teachings, but Jesus contradicts himself.

You know I am trying to the best of my abilities to answer some of your questions. I am not a biblical scholar, nor do I need be to grasp the important parts of the gospel of Jesus Christ, or to explain it. No one on earth can give you the answers to all your questions.
No, but if God is perfect, he would make sure all of his creation had full knowledge of him.

But I sense by the tone of your questions that you are a bit hostile towards Christians and the faith in general. Why I do not know...and do not need to know. When I talk to people of different faiths I am not hostile to them, I do not make fun of their faith....even though I might find that faith to be a false one. I do not know what your problem is........but I will pray that God softens your heart and that the Holy Spirit guides you to places where maybe you can get answers to your questions.

God Bless
Wow, that'll be the first. God is accomsted to hardening Egyptian pharoahs' hearts, so they extract biblical justice.:lol: The message I get from all Christians is that they think they are better than non-believer's, because they subscribe to an idea without any pragmatic evidence, when if the disciples were living today, their mental health would be in question for buying into wild, delphic claims.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
 

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
“1 Corinthians 11:1
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.”

He follows the example of Christ. HE FOLLOWS.

Paul was not being arrogant when he said this. He knew he was sinful. But at this time the Corinthian people did not know much about Jesus Christ. The Gospels had not been written yet…..so they had no idea what Christ was like. How could he tell them to imitate something they did not know much about? They trusted Paul and he had built a relationship of trust with these NEW believers. He was their Christian example……he was not their King, Lord……only an example. Christians today should be examples of how God wants us to live. I do not worship anyone else but I do admire other Christians and their walks with God. That is why going to church is so important. God did not mean us to do life alone…….to battle alone. We need family, we need friends that are Christians to help us in our daily struggles and to keep us on that narrow path.



“Of course, if atheists believe, you know it's real, cause they require proof.”
Well I’ll tell ya…….people live daily lives without requiring proof for everything they do. They rely on faith for most things.

Examples…

Say you are going to fly across the country by jet. Do you know with 100% certainty that you will get to your final destination? No. You can’t possibly know that. You rely on many people to do their jobs, the pilots, the mechanics…….but you do not know for sure? Think those who die in plane crashes thought they would arrive safely at their final destinations? I think most had faith in something or someone that they would get there.


You are going to have surgery. You select the doctor based on his expertise and experience. You pick a reliable hospital based on their record. Do you know for sure that you will make it through without dying? Chances are you will make it……..I said CHANCES, but do you know with 100% certainty you will make it? Don’t you have faith, don’t you put that faith in other peoples hands? I knew a 35 year old woman who died from complications from liposuction. She did not make it.

You are going to get married. The woman/man you are going to marry says they love you……they show you by showering you with gifts and they do wonderful kind things for you………..but can you prove, are you 100% sure they love you for all the right reasons? Think there have been people who were lied to, that could swear that the person loved them? Think there have been people who said, I love you and married for other reasons? All you have are their promises and words of assurance. But proof?.......emotions cant be proven scientifically.

Most people live by faith and they never get proof.

You mention the atheist…..His position is indefensible.

It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. Do you have that? And to have infinite knowledge you would have to be god yourself. And wouldn’t it be hard to be both god and yourself at the same time? Atheism is not a valid philosophy. No finite human being can prove God does not exist because God may very well exist beyond ones comprehension or their experience. The universe is vast and the information that is contained in it is immeasurable. The total amount of knowledge that a human possesses is infinitesimal compared to information in the universe.

Have you ever heard of Isaac Asimov? He signed the Humanist Manifesto ll. He honestly said…. "Emotionally I am an atheist. I don’t have the evidence to prove that God does not exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn’t that I don’t want to waste my time”

He was a scientist.... and he even admitted it. It can't be proven.


“So, even Jesus knows that some require evidence before committing to a belief.”
And we do have evidences today. The Bible is an historical document of demonstrated accuracy and reliability. It has been checked out more than any other piece of literature ever written…..historically,culturally, geographically, scientifically..... It has valuable information on customs, languages, ethics and religion of what is the foundation of all Western civilization. From manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls they have determined that the Old Testament for all practical purposes is exactly the same as it was originally inspired by God and recorded. I wont go into it here because it’s a huge topic…but read about the Ebla tablets. They prove that written language existed at least 1000 years before Moses, which once again vindicated Moses as the most likely author of the Pentateuch.
Read about all the fulfilled prophecies.

Also look at the non-Christian writers that were living close to the time of Christ. They support the New Testament record. Flavius Josephus wrote about John the Baptist and mentioned Jesus by referring to James the half brother of Jesus, the “so-called Christ.” He referred to Jesus as a wise man who was condemned to die on the cross by Pilate. How about Tacitus. He talked about Jesus death and the existence of Christians in Rome. How about Pliny the Younger…Suetonius……The Talumud……The Mishnah…they all make references to Christ.

I’ll finish because it’s late and I am tired…

The Bible is clearly the most trustworthy historical document ever written. You compare the Bible with other ancient manuscripts and none are more factual and accurate. If you toss the Bible out as unreliable then virtually all other books must be tossed out as being unreliable as well. The Bible is in better textural shape then all of Shakespeares plays written in the 17th century and they were written after the invention of printing.

Will write more tomorrow....God Bless
 

Jerry

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
51,124
Reaction score
15,258
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
alphamale said:
What is Heaven? Is it a place where people will have human form? Will people recognize their friends and relatives? What will they do for eternity? Play basketball? Go out for a pizza? Sing hymns? Watch TV? Study French? What can you DO that lasts for eternity? Just float around as a gauzy haze, feeling contented?
Heaven is God's kingdom, by what ever nature He wills it to be.
What we will do is incomprehensible to us now. The way I postulate this is to think of what I would like to do for a living.....something I would gleefully do for free.....and project that thought into infinity.

Me personally, I like to teach and to create, so I suppose that I will perform services to that end.
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
doughgirl said:
He follows the example of Christ. HE FOLLOWS.
Yes, and he required people to follow him, he'd take care of the rest.


Paul was not being arrogant when he said this.
No, not that verse, what about this:

Galations 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
It seems to me like Paul is telling the people of the Galation church that he hopes that Christians who spread teachings differing from his cut off their penises.

He knew he was sinful.
You got that right, and he wasn't shy about admitting it.

But at this time the Corinthian people did not know much about Jesus Christ. The Gospels had not been written yet…..so they had no idea what Christ was like. How could he tell them to imitate something they did not know much about? They trusted Paul and he had built a relationship of trust with these NEW believers. He was their Christian example……he was not their King, Lord……only an example. Christians today should be examples of how God wants us to live. I do not worship anyone else but I do admire other Christians and their walks with God.
Ha, Paul rather arrantly tells the people of Corinth that they must give more money to the church. He plays multiple guilt cards, comparing the genorocity of the church at Macedonia, and saying that God loves a cheerful giver. Jesus never said to give any money to a church. Actually, the Way or Christians, distort Jesus' teachings. It's easier to worship Jesus than follow his teachings, and the Apostles found that out. They want their followers to repent and get baptized in Jesus' name. The problem I see with that is that nowhere in the NT is there any record of Jesus baptizing anyone.

That is why going to church is so important. God did not mean us to do life alone…….to battle alone. We need family, we need friends that are Christians to help us in our daily struggles and to keep us on that narrow path.
Well, that is contradictory to Jesus' teachings once again. He told you to go in your room alone and pray.

Obviously, Jesus didn't approve of group prayers or anything of the sort. And I have plenty of friends and family, I am content, I do not need to belong to a church and worship a worthless piece of wood or metal, or maybe feel content because I believe an invisable man is conversing with me.




Well I’ll tell ya…….people live daily lives without requiring proof for everything they do. They rely on faith for most things.

Examples…

Say you are going to fly across the country by jet. Do you know with 100% certainty that you will get to your final destination?


You are going to have surgery. You select the doctor based on his expertise and experience. You pick a reliable hospital based on their record. Do you know for sure that you will make it through without dying? Chances are you will make it……..I said CHANCES,
Yes, but having faith that you are going to land at your destination and faith in a supernatural plane of existance and a murderous, conceited, emotionally insecure sky pixie are wayyyyyy different. For one, it is beyond proof that other people traveling via airplane have arrived in their destinations safe and sound. There are medical surgeries going on as we speak, and the vast majority of them turn out fine. The things you talk about do require a modicum of faith, but there's a record to base that faith on. But there is no proof, or even a scintilla of documentation of a single person going to heaven, hell, or engaging in a game of twister with the skydaddy. That, my friend is 100% faith.

You mention the atheist…..His position is indefensible.

It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God.
Why, atheism makes no assertions at all? Atheism just states that there is no reason to believe in a God. Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, a strong atheist claims there is no God. But I believe that is a reasonable assumption based on the huge lack of evidence supportting such an entity. For instance, The Bible God is considered omnipotent, and omniscient. But he loses to iron chariots and shows countless frustration and has all sorts of hissy fits and temper tantrums. I would think, any emotion is incompatible with omniscience, since he knows everything that will and has been, and I don't consider running away with your tail tucked between your legs from an army that has iron chariots, anywhere near omnipotence. So, after a thorough reading of the Bible, I have come to the conclusion that if the Bible God is attributted these properties, he dosen't exist.


Atheism is not a valid philosophy.
Yes, you're repeating yourself, but you failed to win me over on your little tirade above. Do you believe in leprechauns? No, then you'd be "aleprechaunist". The prefix "a" denotes non-belief. It is not a belief, simply a lack there of.


No finite human being can prove God does not exist because God may very well exist beyond ones comprehension or their experience.
Your're absolutely right, except we have a 2,000 page book dedicated to God. It portrays this God in a light comparable to a little child bitching over a scraped knee.




Have you ever heard of Isaac Asimov? He signed the Humanist Manifesto ll. He honestly said…. "Emotionally I am an atheist. I don’t have the evidence to prove that God does not exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn’t that I don’t want to waste my time”
Duh. If God could be proven not to exist, what would be the purposes of all the churches, faith-based groups, and the Vatican? I think alot of people would be walking around like zombies. People need something to believe in. The more technologically primitive a society is, the more mystical religions will flourish. For example, if someday we can travel to other galaxies, and discover other entitys in the universe, and ultimately decrease our mortality rate, can we still believe in a mystical, celestrial man sitting in a cloud, pointing a finger and watching us? Compare that to tribes of people in the Congo. People barely have enough food, the mortality rate is young, and only a select few have automobiles there, it is very easy to believe in a heavenly father responsible for everything when you have not even ventured from your native planet.



And we do have evidences today.
Where? What? When?


The Bible is an historical document of demonstrated accuracy and reliability.
Haha, com'on. I like reading the Bible too, but it is merely a fictional piece of bullshit. Talking donkey's and snakes, whales swallowing people and spitting them up alive, suns standing still, flaming wirlwinds carying people to heaven, this God creating plants before light, and the list goes on. How can you possibley read through this and hold a straight face?



It has valuable information on customs, languages, ethics and religion of what is the foundation of all Western civilization.
But fails to mention Islam, alot of Muslims will claim Allah is the one true God. I bet Allah could defeat iron chariots.:lol:


From manuscript discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls they have determined that the Old Testament for all practical purposes is exactly the same as it was originally inspired by God and recorded.
Uhh, no. Alls they prove is that the Hebrews did a fine job of perserving the integrity of the OT text. The Bible makes the claim that it was inspired by God, not the scrolls.


I wont go into it here because it’s a huge topic…but read about the Ebla tablets. They prove that written language existed at least 1000 years before Moses, which once again vindicated Moses as the most likely author of the Pentateuch.
Read about all the fulfilled prophecies.
Please, any prophesy can be fullfilled depending on how the interpreter of it, describes it. Jesus did not fullfill the prophesy in Malachi that he was the messiah, no wonder Jews reject him.:lol:

Also look at the non-Christian writers that were living close to the time of Christ. They support the New Testament record. Flavius Josephus wrote about John the Baptist and mentioned Jesus by referring to James the half brother of Jesus, the “so-called Christ.” He referred to Jesus as a wise man who was condemned to die on the cross by Pilate. How about Tacitus. He talked about Jesus death and the existence of Christians in Rome. How about Pliny the Younger…Suetonius……The Talumud……The Mishnah…they all make references to Christ.
Yes, and they all lived decades after Jesus supposedly died. But none of them attributted Jesus with "divine" abilites.

The Bible is clearly the most trustworthy historical document ever written.
O man, that statement is so funny. I think I'll put it in my sig.:lol: Haha, is this the same Bible that states donkey's can talk, there are Giants, the earth is flat, and demon possesion causes illness?:lol: Surely you're not serious here.


You compare the Bible with other ancient manuscripts and none are more factual and accurate. If you toss the Bible out as unreliable then virtually all other books must be tossed out as being unreliable as well.
I guess the dictionary is unreliable? I got a a new tv today, should I throw out the manuel as it's unreliable? I guess the phonebook is unreliable?
 
Last edited:

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
"The things you talk about do require a modicum of faith, but there's a record to base that faith on. But there is no proof, or even a scintilla of documentation of a single person going to heaven, hell, or engaging in a game of twister with the skydaddy. That, my friend is 100% faith."

And I have 100% faith in Christ. Record? What is the record?....... you still have to place your faith on the pilot....the doctor....and the people you come into contact with. You have no guarentees.

I am just curious as to why you hate Christianity so much? Why are you so very bitter? You don’t just ask questions, there is underlying hostility. You poke fun, you make jokes. You don’t question……..really you intentionally mock…………why?
It doesnt upset me but I am just curious as to why you waste your time in Christian sites when you don't believe in god?

I am not a Muslim but I do not make fun of Allah or their Koran, or their Hadiths nor do I make fun of Buddists or Jews...or athiests for that matter.

With every breath you mock Christ, why not Buddah? Allah? What did Christ ever do to you that was so bad? Buddah left his wife and son and sought out on his own....Mohammed killed and was a warrior? What did Jesus ever do during His lifetime that warrents your hostility?

I think there is far more to your story……….


They say the hardest hearts in this world are not among the ungodly - but among God's people….I think you are the exception to this rule. You seem to get much enjoyment out of flaunting your hatred for God. I know many atheists but I have never come across one so bitter as yourself. You love to scoff, mock, blaspheme,….you sort of remind me of that Marilyn Manson character. I think he does what he does for attention…..however I think he really is hurting inside.

You would know …. according to the Bible, the hardness of heart that God most despises has to do with the hearing and rejecting of His Word. So if you are trying to get His attention…….you are succeeding.

"He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy" (Proverbs 29:1)

God did want us to be yoked with other Christians. He never intended for us to be alone. Why do you think He created Eve? Adam was fine, everything was good. Adam was lonely.

I like this story...


“A pastor went to see a man who didn’t attend church very faithfully. The man was sitting before a fire, watching the warm glow of the coals. It was a cold winter day, but the coals were red hot, and the fire was warm. The pastor pleaded with the man to be more faithful in meeting with the people of God, but the man didn’t seem to be getting the message. He said, “I think I can worship as well alone as at church.” After reflecting a moment, the pastor took the tongs beside the fireplace, lifted a live coal from the fire, and set it down at the side of the grate. As they watched, its color turned to gray and the heat slowly died. The church member got the point. After a long pause, he said, “I’ll be in church Sunday.”
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
doughgirl said:
And I have 100% faith in Christ.
Why believe something when there's not a shred of evidence? By postulating on a supernatural entity's existence, you're abandoning all logic and reason. Look, here's an example of logic, suppose your kid wants to buy a new car, what does he do? He test drives it, inspects the tires, looks under the hood, gives it a good go around. Here's "faith"- he just hands the car salesman the money for the car without even so much as test-driving it, now, wouldn't you think that is pretty stupid? Well if that's considered stupid, why isn't a blind belief in an eternal, invisable, man sitting on a cloudy throne considered mawkish?

Record? What is the record?.......
The numerous times an operation was carried out succesful.

you still have to place your faith on the pilot....the doctor....and the people you come into contact with. You have no guarentees.
You're right, there is no guarentees, but it's not like a novice is performing brain surgery, or flying a plane. These people had gone through many years of schooling, many hours of training, and have numerous documentations stating that they know how to fly or operate. God does not have a photo ID that says he's God.

I am just curious as to why you hate Christianity so much? Why are you so very bitter? You don’t just ask questions, there is underlying hostility. You poke fun, you make jokes. You don’t question……..really you intentionally mock…………why?
Because I think most of the members of God's fan club are hypocrites. I haven't seen or heard of a single Christian that followed all of the dead Jews' teachings. And they claim to worship him, tsk, tsk. Do not think for a minute if Jesus was walking among us that he would be caught dead in a church. I am willing to bet that the very same people who idolize the Christian torture symbol (the cross) and Jesus so much, would surely crucify him again. On second thought, crucifixian is way too barbaric for today's standards, if someone came back claiming he is the Christ, I'm sure the fundies would mock and jail him in a hurry.


It doesnt upset me but I am just curious as to why you waste your time in Christian sites when you don't believe in god?
What Christian site am I on? This one? That's news to me. I was under the assumption that Debate Politics was not-affiliated with a single philosophy.

I am not a Muslim but I do not make fun of Allah or their Koran, or their Hadiths nor do I make fun of Buddists or Jews...or athiests for that matter.

Well that's good to know. No matter what our differences are, we are all human people of the same planet.


With every breath you mock Christ, why not Buddah? Allah?
Well, I do not know that much about Islam or Buddhism for that matter. But I spent some 14 or 15 years as a Christian. Reading the Bible turned me into an athiest.


What did Christ ever do to you that was so bad? Buddah left his wife and son and sought out on his own....Mohammed killed and was a warrior? What did Jesus ever do during His lifetime that warrents your hostility?
Dat ***** owes me $5.:lol: But seriously, the majority of Jesus' teachings are a good idea. I personally don't think people should take religion so veraciously, I think it basically teaches one how to live your life.

I think there is far more to your story……….
You're a smart cookie detective. Was it the trail of bread crums that caught your suspicion?:lol:

They say the hardest hearts in this world are not among the ungodly - but among God's people….
And the Egyptian pharoah, who killed many people account of God hardening his heart.

I think you are the exception to this rule. You seem to get much enjoyment out of flaunting your hatred for God. I know many atheists but I have never come across one so bitter as yourself. You love to scoff, mock, blaspheme,….you sort of remind me of that Marilyn Manson character. I think he does what he does for attention…..however I think he really is hurting inside.
Look, I'm just the kind of person who, when reads something they do not adhere to, retaliates, that's all. Why would I be hurting inside? O, you probably think I'm a bit lonely right? Maybe I'll find complaceny in conversing with an imaginary friend? No thanks, I don't want to live my life believing that a father figure is up in the clouds, watching me, waiting for me to slip, so he can punish me eternally. I don't think there's a supernatural puppeteer pulling the strings for humanity, we are not powerless pawns in a divine game, humanity's future is all up to humanity.

You would know …. according to the Bible, the hardness of heart that God most despises has to do with the hearing and rejecting of His Word. So if you are trying to get His attention…….you are succeeding.
Why doesn't your all-powerful God strike me dead now? And if heaven is so good, why don't we all just kill ourselves now to get a pass to go there? And I know what you are gonna say, it's a mortal sin, but how did you come to that conclusion, as the Bible makes no mention of "mortal sin?" Surely, if your God is infinity loving, he would want his creation in a loving home, right?


"He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy" (Proverbs 29:1)
Haha, that verse sounds like a poem you'd find in a fortune cookie. It doesn't fit in with the loving God concept.


God did want us to be yoked with other Christians. He never intended for us to be alone. Why do you think He created Eve? Adam was fine, everything was good. Adam was lonely.
This fella is a sexist then. First of all he creates Adam first, from dust, then fashions Eve, out of a rib of Adam.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Haha, this verse suggests that females are also in God's image. He can't seem to make up his mind. Maybe this "God" fellow is a transgender.:lol:
 
Last edited:

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
”What Christian site am I on? This one? That's news to me. I was under the assumption that Debate Politics was not-affiliated with a single philosophy.”
I missspoke…..
You are in the religious area of DebatePolitics………and you are discussing Christianity in this thread. Why?
Why do you waste your time? :confused:

“You're a smart cookie detective. Was it the trail of bread crums that caught your suspicion?’
Ha ha Not really but I can sense things. :mrgreen:

“Look, I'm just the kind of person who, when reads something they do not adhere to, retaliates, that's all. Why would I be hurting inside? O, you probably think I'm a bit lonely right? Maybe I'll find complaceny in conversing with an imaginary friend? No thanks, I don't want to live my life believing that a father figure is up in the clouds, watching me, waiting for me to slip, so he can punish me eternally. I don't think there's a supernatural puppeteer pulling the strings for humanity, we are not powerless pawns in a divine game, humanity's future is all up to humanity.”
You don’t need to retaliate. Why do you think you have to retaliate? I am a Christian but I hold no ill will for you just because you are not a Christian. My husband is not a believer really. He believes in God but he doesn’t walk the walk. Its head knowledge and not heart knowledge. Do you understand the difference?

My inlaws are Jews…..actually my father in law is an atheist like yourself. My family on my side are pretty much all born again Christians. But I love my whole family, even my father in law who doesn’t really respect me (and my faith) and takes the Lords name in vain whenever possible. He loves me I am sure but he has real hard edges. I would never hurt anyone intentionally or make fun of their faith.

So I don’t hold any ill will for you…actually I enjoy talking to you. I mean you ask very good questions.

“Why doesn't your all-powerful God strike me dead now?”
Well I can’t answer that anymore than you can. Gods plan is perfect whatever it is.
And who knows maybe today is your last day on earth….maybe today is mine. But I do know God loves us. He loves you just as much as he loves me and I am the believer, the one who tries daily to walk in faith.


“And if heaven is so good, why don't we all just kill ourselves now to get a pass to go there?”
If you have read the bible then you know there is only one way to heaven. There are no free passes and everyone goes the SAME ROUTE. There is only ONE GATE.

Everyone will not go to heaven the scriptures tell us. Jesus tells us that only those who believe in Him will have eternal life. Being good is not enough…….and there is only ONE SIN, that keeps you from spending eternity in heaven with God……denying His Son.


“And I know what you are gonna say, it's a mortal sin, but how did you come to that conclusion, as the Bible makes no mention of "mortal sin?" Surely, if your God is infinity loving, he would want his creation in a loving home, right?”

I think the Catholics believe if you kill yourself you don’t go to heaven. I am not a Catholic. I am a member of a non-denominational Church, a Bible believing Church.

As I said there is only one sin the Bible says that keeps you from going to heaven, and it isn’t killing yourself, or killing anyone else for that matter. Its denial of Christ.

“Haha, that verse sounds like a poem you'd find in a fortune cookie. It doesn't fit in with the loving God concept.”
Interesting observation. Hey I am not a Biblical scholar, but I do recognize that God does not always do what we would like Him to do or, in fact what we think He ought to do. (Psalms 115:3) God has the ability to see the whole picture and we do not. We basically see our immediate needs. He is sovereign and infinite and we are limited and finite. (Isa. 55:8-9) We will never understand why God chooses to act as He does in many situations or why He allows events to happen that seem inconsistent with His character.

Nevertheless although much of what God does seems like a mystery, we do have His assurance that what He does is ultimately in the best interest of those who believe in Him. (romans 8:28) We need to open our hearts and let Him in and learn to trust Him, even if we dont understand what He is doing. If we know God we know that what He is doing is rational and is not contrary to His attributes of love and holiness.

I know what you will say too. Well….there is a lot of human suffering, disease, hunger, oppression….all over the world. Those are facts. And it is a tough question for Christians to answer as to why God allows for these to happen if He is so loving.

I do believe this….without the Holy Spirit, non-Christians are unable to fully apprehend Christian truths, (1 Cor 2:12-14) let alone find comfort in them.

It is true that God permitted evil to enter the world and that He now allows the consequences of that evil to continue. God is sovereign and all-powerful and could destroy all evil immediately if He chose, but He does not. Sin is evil and sin separates you from God.

I guess whatever your worldview is, whether you’re a Christian like me, a humanist, atheist, pantheist….one fact is certain….No one gets through life unscathed. Everyone experiences pain, misery, hardships, and suffering at one point or another. Personally through my 50 years of lifes experiences God has allowed me to experience them all at different times. I think He has used many to draw me closer to Him in submission and dependence. He doesn’t promise that if you become a Christian you will have an easier life. and lately mine has been anything but easy.

2005 brought much sadness and trauma in my life. I lost my beloved mother who suffered with Scleroderma a painful, horrendous illness, and in less than 3 weeks lost my aunt to colon cancer. My father has prostrate cancer and alzeimers, and now without mom is suffering deep depression. My son was in not one but two near fatal car accidents, one in fact where he was airlifted to the hospital. Lets put it this way, I don’t want to answer my door or answer the phone.
But during this year, everything I have mentioned has brought me closer to Christ. My tears are prayers really to Him……..cause sometimes the words don’t come. He knows what is in my heart anyway and I thank God for the blessings I have in my life that He has given me.

I feel His presence 24-7. And when I can't stand it any longer, I give everything to Him. He has promised me two things. Eternal life and that He dwells with me. (Matthew 28:20?)
You know that saying,,,,God doesn’t give you anymore than you can handle?

It’s a lie…….. Sometimes God gives you much more than you can handle………so that you will rely on Him. I know this probably sounds corny but it’s true.
When I encounter hardships, rather than blame God for the pain I suffer I give Him praise that He sent Christ and that He dwells in my heart.


“Haha, this verse suggests that females are also in God's image. He can't seem to make up his mind. Maybe this "God" fellow is a transgender.”
Ha ha…..Well I like the idea that I came from Adam…..I came from a man. I think He knows His mind alright.

And all I know is that God was not a monkey……..Gosh don’t get me started on that !!!!!!!

It’s late and I need sleep………..God bless

Will respond tomorrow.
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
doughgirl said:
I missspoke…..
You are in the religious area of DebatePolitics………and you are discussing Christianity in this thread. Why?
Why do you waste your time? :confused:
Do you want me to just stare at my monitor and accept all the Christian answers to questions, without questioning them? I refuse to bite my tongue, when I see something I do not agree with 8 times out of 10 I type my opinion in. I refuse to follow the rest of the herd, I prefer to question things, not take things at face value.


Ha ha Not really but I can sense things. :mrgreen:
Wow, we have a phsycic in our midst.


You don’t need to retaliate. Why do you think you have to retaliate? I am a Christian but I hold no ill will for you just because you are not a Christian. My husband is not a believer really. He believes in God but he doesn’t walk the walk. Its head knowledge and not heart knowledge. Do you understand the difference?
I understand, I know many people who believe in God, but are apprenticed on scripture. I have yet to meet anyone (outside of Debate politics) who claims they are Christian, know anything about the Bible, and that kinda worries me, that so many people believe in a loving, invisable, father-figure, without even questioning the schematics behind his so called existance.


So I don’t hold any ill will for you…actually I enjoy talking to you. I mean you ask very good questions.
Muchas Gracias. :2razz:


And who knows maybe today is your last day on earth….maybe today is mine.
Yep, we never know when our time is up, my heart can stop beating as I type this sentence.




If you have read the bible then you know there is only one way to heaven. There are no free passes and everyone goes the SAME ROUTE. There is only ONE GATE.

Everyone will not go to heaven the scriptures tell us. Jesus tells us that only those who believe in Him will have eternal life. Being good is not enough…….and there is only ONE SIN, that keeps you from spending eternity in heaven with God……denying His Son.
What about people in under-developed countries that never heard of Christianity, and are salt of the earth good people? Will a loving God condemn them to eternal fire? Remember in that verse from Matthew, the carpenter says you simply have to follow a few commandments to gain entrance to the sky fortress.



I think the Catholics believe if you kill yourself you don’t go to heaven.
Well, I don't know where they came to that interesting conclusion, since it's not scripture-based.



Interesting observation. Hey I am not a Biblical scholar, but I do recognize that God does not always do what we would like Him to do or, in fact what we think He ought to do. (Psalms 115:3) God has the ability to see the whole picture and we do not. We basically see our immediate needs. He is sovereign and infinite and we are limited and finite. (Isa. 55:8-9) We will never understand why God chooses to act as He does in many situations or why He allows events to happen that seem inconsistent with His character.

Nevertheless although much of what God does seems like a mystery, we do have His assurance that what He does is ultimately in the best interest of those who believe in Him. (romans 8:28) We need to open our hearts and let Him in and learn to trust Him, even if we dont understand what He is doing. If we know God we know that what He is doing is rational and is not contrary to His attributes of love and holiness.
Remeber, the busy-beaver Paul wrote Romans, so if you don't have first hand experience with something, it's relatively simple to paint them in a favorable light. I'm sure when Jesus recruited Paul, he failed to mention how his dad was a bloodthirsty, egomaniacal, insecure, emotional, mafia headman.



It is true that God permitted evil to enter the world and that He now allows the consequences of that evil to continue. God is sovereign and all-powerful and could destroy all evil immediately if He chose, but He does not. Sin is evil and sin separates you from God.
Why would a loving God allow evil to corrupt those he loves so much? And this verse shows Satan is all powerful.



2005 brought much sadness and trauma in my life. I lost my beloved mother who suffered with Scleroderma a painful, horrendous illness, and in less than 3 weeks lost my aunt to colon cancer. My father has prostrate cancer and alzeimers, and now without mom is suffering deep depression. My son was in not one but two near fatal car accidents, one in fact where he was airlifted to the hospital. Lets put it this way, I don’t want to answer my door or answer the phone.
I am sincerely sorry for your loss. I'm sure it helps believing that they are in a better place.




It’s a lie…….. Sometimes God gives you much more than you can handle………so that you will rely on Him. I know this probably sounds corny but it’s true.
When I encounter hardships, rather than blame God for the pain I suffer I give Him praise that He sent Christ and that He dwells in my heart.
Wow, so when you encounter trouble, you praise God, who caused it? He's really pulling the wull over your eyes.



And all I know is that God was not a monkey……..Gosh don’t get me started on that !!!!!!!
Huh?

It’s late and I need sleep………..God bless

Will respond tomorrow.
Yea, this was a half-assed response on my part, cause I spend like 45 minutes typing a rebuttal, then I lost it, and had to start over.:doh
 

doughgirl

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
60
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Conservative
“Yep, we never know when our time is up, my heart can stop beating as I type this sentence.”
Well I sure hope not. I appreciate the questions you ask. As I said I think I have a pretty good grasp of scripture….and I wont lie I have also questioned things too. God wants us too. You ask good questions.

“What about people in under-developed countries that never heard of Christianity, and are salt of the earth good people? Will a loving God condemn them to eternal fire? Remember in that verse from Matthew, the carpenter says you simply have to follow a few commandments to gain entrance to the sky fortress.”
I think it says somewhere that God will hold us accountable for what we know. If someone has heard the scriptures or the gospel they are held accountable. Small children, the mentally handicapped and mentally challenged….and those in parts of the world that have never heard about Christ………I am sure God would never condemn them.

I think we live in a time where there are not many places on earth that haven’t heard about Christ. Could you site the exact scripture in Matthew.

“I'm sure when Jesus recruited Paul, he failed to mention how his dad was a bloodthirsty, egomaniacal, insecure, emotional, mafia headman.”
Since they are part of the Godhead together I don’t think this would be necessary do you?


“Why would a loving God allow evil to corrupt those he loves so much? And this verse shows Satan is all powerful.”
He gives us free will. He does not make us sin. We sin on our own time. And sin is evil. And sin separates us from God. God and sin don’t go together…..Sin displeases Him. Why do you always blame God for bad things. Do you think it also makes sense to praise Him for good things that happen?

“Wow, so when you encounter trouble, you praise God, who caused it? He's really pulling the wull over your eyes.”
I don’t happen to see it this way. I am so very blessed in my life. To have been a wife and mother and a sister. I have a wonderful family, I have good health, a warm bed to sleep in……..so many people do not have these things. Look at the people who live in fear on a daily basis. This is not Gods fault but mans fault. Man has a sinful nature and we are not good. We could never be good enough to enter Gods kingdom.

But no I look at the struggles I face……that God is paying attention to me. And if my struggles help some other person find God then my struggles were worth it. During my moms illness, she faced death with much courage. She was in such pain that she cried daily. Many people saw the faith mom had in God and couldn’t believe her faithful walk with Him. The morning she died…we all were there. She had suffered so much that it really aged her. Kal-el I am telling you……that before my eyes I saw her body transformed, from someone in pain and agony to someone at total peace and rest. Her last breathe was absolutely something I will never forget. She was blessed to see my first breath on earth and I was blessed to see her last. I swear within 5 minutes she did not have one wrinkle on her face. Its still hard to talk about. Gosh I loved her so. I think I became an adult that day, and I just turned 50 this year. Point….I know exactly where she is.

I really enjoy are talks…you’re a really nice person and you’ve been nice to me. Thanks. This will be my last post until next Tuesday….my son plays pro-hockey and we travel around the country watchin him……so we leave tomorrow.

Have a good weekend…….and read your Bible !!!!! :rofl ;) :mrgreen:
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
kal-el said:
Do you want me to just stare at my monitor and accept all the Christian answers to questions, without questioning them?
Kal-el, there is questioning, and there is stopping your ears and shouting at the top of your lungs so you don't have to hear the answer. More than once I have replied to one of your questions and you blew it off as if I'd said nothing. If you are going to ask questions, at least have the courtesy to consider the answer.

kal-el said:
I refuse to bite my tongue, when I see something I do not agree with 8 times out of 10 I type my opinion in. I refuse to follow the rest of the herd, I prefer to question things, not take things at face value.
I'm the same way!

kal-el said:
I understand, I know many people who believe in God, but are apprenticed on scripture. I have yet to meet anyone (outside of Debate politics) who claims they are Christian, know anything about the Bible, and that kinda worries me, that so many people believe in a loving, invisable, father-figure, without even questioning the schematics behind his so called existance.
You are so right about Christians not knowing their Bible. It is so dangerous because if they don't know what the Bible actually says, they are so easily led astray by lies.

kal-el said:
What about people in under-developed countries that never heard of Christianity, and are salt of the earth good people? Will a loving God condemn them to eternal fire?
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" Romans 2:12-15

By nature, we have an understanding of right and wrong (part of our inheritance from the fall). Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong etc. Our poor pagan friends who have never heard of God know right and wrong...and will be judged according to how they have followed the law that is written on their hearts. So from this verse, I think we can see the possibility exists that any pagan who perfectly followed his conscience and always did what his conscience said was right will go to heaven.


kal-el said:
Remember in that verse from Matthew, the carpenter says you simply have to follow a few commandments to gain entrance to the sky fortress.
Here you go again, misrepresenting scripture.

"Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth." Matthew 19:16-22


There is a bigger picture here you are missing by your insistance on quoting the one verse out of context. If you notice, the commandments Jesus quoted were the last six. Why didn't he quote the first four...do those not apply? No, he was exposing this man's sin of worshipping the idol of money. The rich man did not put God first, and evidenced by his failure to sell his possessions and follow Jesus, he continued to not put God first...thus he sinned. You cannot make a general application from this story that we only need to follow a few commandments to get to heaven, especially in light of all those other verses I quoted before that say we must believe in Jesus to be saved. Jesus said what he said to serve a particular purpose in a particular situation. And in the end, Jesus' requirement was that we follow him.

kal-el said:
Why would a loving God allow evil to corrupt those he loves so much? And this verse shows Satan is all powerful.
Nice trick...quote out of context AND switch versions so you can make the verse appear to say what you want.

Your reference (copied from the site you provided so that we can actually see what it says) "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," 2 Thess 2:9 (KJV) It does NOT say Satn is all powerful, but that he is coming with all power...two entirely different things.

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thess 2:7-10 (NIV) From the full context, we see that the "lawless one" will come with miraculous signs and wonders through the power of Satan, and that THEY WILL BE DESTROYED when Jesus comes in His splendor. Satan is not so all-powerful if he will be destroyed.
 
Last edited:

CaliNORML

Active member
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
250
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
What drives life as we know it?

Hunger, instinct, survival, ego, indifference.

Opposite of each is?

That is heaven.

KMS
 

kal-el

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Rev. said:
Kal-el, there is questioning, and there is stopping your ears and shouting at the top of your lungs so you don't have to hear the answer. More than once I have replied to one of your questions and you blew it off as if I'd said nothing. If you are going to ask questions, at least have the courtesy to consider the answer.
How do you know I didn't? Rev, if you are trying to convert me, I'm sorry, it won't work, unless you can provide some sort of observational evidence of a God. It's in my nature to question things. Look at that incident in the saco mines (I think it's called saco?). 11 miners died, while 1 lived. Everybody claimed it was a miracle and an act of God. Sorry, but if anything will serve as proof that there is no God, this is the closest to proof we will ever have short of an eyewitness encounter. If an omnipotent God can save 1 miner, he can save them all. Or can't? He's sadistic then. Sentencing 11 miners to their death, and only saving 1. I know it's great that 1 survived, but it isn't a miracle, far from it. MCcloy's wits and fortitude got him through this.


I'm the same way!
No offense, but how can you say that when you blindly buy into supernatural hocus pocus?


You are so right about Christians not knowing their Bible. It is so dangerous because if they don't know what the Bible actually says, they are so easily led astray by lies.
When I was a christian, I went to alot of sermons. My preacher always cherry-picked the verses that he wanted to relay to his congregation. Boy, if I could get to pick the verses that he would read, the congregation would riot.:lol: I decided one day to actually sit down and read through the Bible to see what all this fuss about God was about. To my dismay, the first 4 books double as a pornographic/murderous novel. It seems like this God relishes bragging about his killings. As he threatened to kill Moses, the closet thing he ever had as a friend, just because his son wasn't circumsized? Reading the Bible is what turned me into an athiest.



By nature, we have an understanding of right and wrong (part of our inheritance from the fall). Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong etc. Our poor pagan friends who have never heard of God know right and wrong...and will be judged according to how they have followed the law that is written on their hearts. So from this verse, I think we can see the possibility exists that any pagan who perfectly followed his conscience and always did what his conscience said was right will go to heaven.
Well said.:2razz:



Here you go again, misrepresenting scripture.
I said this before, but if the Bible is infallible, it is impossible for a fallible human to misrepresent it, or take it out of context. And who's to say you're not misrepresenting it?


There is a bigger picture here you are missing by your insistance on quoting the one verse out of context. If you notice, the commandments Jesus quoted were the last six. Why didn't he quote the first four...do those not apply? No, he was exposing this man's sin of worshipping the idol of money. The rich man did not put God first, and evidenced by his failure to sell his possessions and follow Jesus, he continued to not put God first...thus he sinned.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were there, and his spokesperson, cause obviously you know exactly what Jesus' intentions were.:lol:

You cannot make a general application from this story that we only need to follow a few commandments to get to heaven, especially in light of all those other verses I quoted before that say we must believe in Jesus to be saved. Jesus said what he said to serve a particular purpose in a particular situation. And in the end, Jesus' requirement was that we follow him.
Again, Matthew 16-22 is not misquoted. It says what it says. You keep placing personal opinions to his teachings, which need no opinions. If Jesus wanted to say he should put God first, he would have said it. The carpenter does not need his fan club fighting his battles. In Jesus' reply he failed to mention worship of him or his daddy. He was telling his disciples how having wealth will hinder your entrance into heaven, and he said with God all things are possible, but you are guilty of adding onto the Bible if you describe something other. Which reminds me, you claim to follow Jesus so much, so one would think you'd pass around all your money like a ****ing hot potato, so you are guarenteed entrance into the sky fortress.:lol:


Nice trick...quote out of context AND switch versions so you can make the verse appear to say what you want.
That's kinda gettin old. Those parrotted "out of context" articulations.

Your reference (copied from the site you provided so that we can actually see what it says) "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," 2 Thess 2:9 (KJV) It does NOT say Satn is all powerful, but that he is coming with all power...two entirely different things.
Well, it certainly sounds like he's all-powerful:

1 Thessalonians 2:18
For we wanted to come to you- certainly I, Paul, did, again and again, but Satan stopped us.
2 Timothy 2:25-26
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentence leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thess 2:7-10 (NIV) From the full context, we see that the "lawless one" will come with miraculous signs and wonders through the power of Satan, and that THEY WILL BE DESTROYED when Jesus comes in His splendor. Satan is not so all-powerful if he will be destroyed.
Well obviously, Satan has an abundance of power, since he turned on an omniscient God, and trys to cause havoc to his creation. And, if Satan isn't so powerful, why then is this God fella so nervous, constantly referring to him? Haha, I noticed you conviently missed verses number 11 and 12, it says, if you forgot- For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion, so that they will believe a lie and so that they will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
kal-el said:
How do you know I didn't? Rev, if you are trying to convert me, I'm sorry, it won't work, unless you can provide some sort of observational evidence of a God. It's in my nature to question things. Look at that incident in the saco mines (I think it's called saco?). 11 miners died, while 1 lived. Everybody claimed it was a miracle and an act of God. Sorry, but if anything will serve as proof that there is no God, this is the closest to proof we will ever have short of an eyewitness encounter. If an omnipotent God can save 1 miner, he can save them all. Or can't? He's sadistic then. Sentencing 11 miners to their death, and only saving 1. I know it's great that 1 survived, but it isn't a miracle, far from it. MCcloy's wits and fortitude got him through this.
You can find evil where you want to find evil and you can find good where you want to find good. Why do you always want to find evil?

The question is not "Can God save all 12 miners?" but "Will God save all 12 miners." Clearly, the answer is no. Why? Don'y know...but since God is omniscient and omnibenevolent (two facts you keep ramming down my throat as if that's ALL of who God is) I will have to trust that His reasons were good ones.

kal-el said:
No offense, but how can you say that when you blindly buy into supernatural hocus pocus?
I've been where you are...hostile and hating God with every ounce of my being. I got to a place (of my own doing) where placing my faith is God was my best option. He has since proven himself to me over and over. I was blind before, but now I see.

kal-el said:
When I was a christian, I went to alot of sermons. My preacher always cherry-picked the verses that he wanted to relay to his congregation. Boy, if I could get to pick the verses that he would read, the congregation would riot.:lol:
So if cherry-picking verses to prove your position is wrong, how do you justify the fact that this is all YOU do?

kal-el said:
I said this before, but if the Bible is infallible, it is impossible for a fallible human to misrepresent it, or take it out of context. And who's to say you're not misrepresenting it?
Of course men can misrepresent the Bible. The Bible's infallibility doesn't prtect it from being misused if that is the intent of man's heart. As for me "misrepresenting it" you have made this charge against me several times no, but have yet to support your claim.

kal-el said:
Again, Matthew 16-22 is not misquoted.
Kal-el, I NEVER said you mis-quoted Matt 19:16-22. For one thing, you never even quoted Matt 19:16-22, I did! You limited your quoting to ONLY verse 18, and I NEVER said you mis-quoted, I said you mis-represented. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

kal-el said:
It says what it says. You keep placing personal opinions to his teachings, which need no opinions.
I was not stating personal opinion, I was bringing other facts to light which would bring about a proper understanding of the passage. It is NOT personal opinion that Jesus ommitted the first four commandments, and it is NOT personal opinion that the rich young man valued money more that eternal life.

kal-el said:
If Jesus wanted to say he should put God first, he would have said it.
Jesus said a lot in what he didn't say. It was his teaching style.

kal-el said:
The carpenter does not need his fan club fighting his battles. In Jesus' reply he failed to mention worship of him or his daddy. He was telling his disciples how having wealth will hinder your entrance into heaven, and he said with God all things are possible, but you are guilty of adding onto the Bible if you describe something other.
In Jesus' reply to the rich young ruler (vs. 16-22) He was NOT addressing his disciples, he said NOTHING about wealth hindering entrance into heaven, and he did NOT say with God all things are possible.

kal-el said:
That's kinda gettin old. Those parrotted "out of context" articulations.
Then quit quoting out of context.

kal-el said:
Well, it certainly sounds like he's all-powerful:
That would be YOUR personal interpretation. Scripture, on the other hand, tells us that Satan is NOT all-powerful since he will be defeated in the end. He has a lot of power, yes. He can do amazing things, yes. He does not have ALL power, NO!

kal-el said:
Well obviously, Satan has an abundance of power, since he turned on an omniscient God, and trys to cause havoc to his creation.
"Abundance of power" is not the same as "all-power."

kal-el said:
And, if Satan isn't so powerful, why then is this God fella so nervous, constantly referring to him?
Because Satan has power to decieve us, and we have free will to choose Satan over God. God is not "nervous" about his own fate...but he is concerned about ours.

kal-el said:
Haha, I noticed you conviently missed verses number 11 and 12, it says, if you forgot- For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion, so that they will believe a lie and so that they will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
No, I didn't forget them...I didn't need them to provide a context for explaining the limits to Satan's power.

As for the verses in question: "For this reason.." What reason? The reason of some refusing to love the truth and so be saved..."God sends them a powerful delusion, so that they will believe a lie and so that they will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness" In other words, the man of lawlessness will come, enabled by Satan to perform great miracles and signs and wonders and people will choose to follow this deceiver instead of hold on to the truth. So God will let them continue to be deceived unto condemnation.

There's a word of warning here for you, Kal-el, as you search for "great miracles, signs and wonders" so that you can be convinced there really is a God. If you find them, most likely they won't be from God.
 

nkgupta80

DP Veteran
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,720
Reaction score
59
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
why couldn't God just make it easier for people to choose him, and just make billboards in the sky that remind us of that.
 

Rev.

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
530
Reaction score
55
Location
New England
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Independent
nkgupta80 said:
why couldn't God just make it easier for people to choose him, and just make billboards in the sky that remind us of that.
With all due respect...could you please explain what makes it difficult to choose God?
 
Top Bottom