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Question 3 for Christians

alphamale

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Why did God make Jesus die on the cross for our sins? Isn't that unfair? Why not hold each person accountable for their own sins? And did Jesus die for the sins up till the time of his death?
 

jallman

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alphamale said:
Why did God make Jesus die on the cross for our sins? Isn't that unfair? Why not hold each person accountable for their own sins? And did Jesus die for the sins up till the time of his death?
That is one of the deepest mysteries of faith. Before the death of christ, the priests were required to make blood sacrifice for the atonement of the people. We are all born with an original sin and that sin cannot be washed clean except through sacrificial blood. The blood constitutes a pact of faith between man and god. God loved us so much that he showed his love by making the ultimate blood sacrifice, sacrificing a part of his deity so that the atonement would last forever and that the blood sacrifice could end. With that sacrifice, he washed clean all the original sin that kept us and him apart, because god cannot be in the presence of the unclean...but he loved us so much he desired to make us clean so that we could be with him.
 

alphamale

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jallman said:
That is one of the deepest mysteries of faith. Before the death of christ, the priests were required to make blood sacrifice for the atonement of the people. We are all born with an original sin and that sin cannot be washed clean except through sacrificial blood. The blood constitutes a pact of faith between man and god. God loved us so much that he showed his love by making the ultimate blood sacrifice, sacrificing a part of his deity so that the atonement would last forever and that the blood sacrifice could end. With that sacrifice, he washed clean all the original sin that kept us and him apart, because god cannot be in the presence of the unclean...but he loved us so much he desired to make us clean so that we could be with him.
What does it mean to say we were all born with "original sin"? How can anyone who was just born have sinned? He didn't do anything yet! Why did God make the "ultimate blood sacrifice" - wouldn't a universal pardon have been just as good?
 

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alphamale said:
What does it mean to say we were all born with "original sin"? How can anyone who was just born have sinned? He didn't do anything yet! Why did God make the "ultimate blood sacrifice" - wouldn't a universal pardon have been just as good?
Is it not enough that the rules were in place, but that God bound himself to the same rules and made his sacrifice for us? This conversation will spiral into some of the deepest mysteries of faith if you wish, but suffice to say that God is all powerful, but He is perfectly faithful to his own laws. We have the original sin of Adam and Eve upon us and we are inherently unclean by our flesh. The blood washes the flesh clean because it is a vessel of the Spirit. Rather than go through centuries of offering sacrifice for atonement, he gave a piece of his own deity, made it flesh and offered it in exchange as the greatest gift of love and sacrifice, washing us clean with the blood of his son, imbued with the power of the Holy Spirit.
 

alphamale

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We have the original sin of Adam and Eve upon us and we are inherently unclean by our flesh. The blood washes the flesh clean because it is a vessel of the Spirit.
I have no idea what this means.
 

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alphamale said:
I have no idea what this means.
Okay, it will be hard to keep this concise and not open the door to a thousand other questions, but I will try. God is a being of spirit. He is elevated above even the stars. We were his creation, ensouled with a choice and a freedom to fulfill our purpose or to squander the lives he gave us. The angels dont even have that blessing. If an angel offends god, he is cast out as rebellious. We offend god with our very flesh because we tainted our flesh in the garden of eden when we disobeyed god and by eating from the tree...we introduced shame to ourselves in the garden. For that, we were cast out of the garden, imperfect with the knowledge that our flesh requires flesh for every function. But unlike the angels, God gave us a means to wash that unclean sin and shame away with the spirit, the blood. I wont be offended if you find this more confusing than helpful...it is one of the most profound mysteries of faith and requires someone much more well spoken than me to explain.
 
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FallingPianos

I hit a wrong button, and it said that a sticky was added to this thread, and now I cant find it in the religion and philosphy forum. could a mod fix this?
 

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alphamale said:
Why did God make Jesus die on the cross for our sins? Isn't that unfair? Why not hold each person accountable for their own sins? And did Jesus die for the sins up till the time of his death?
God didn't make Jesus...Jesus volunteered.

It's not unfair, when you volunteer.

If God had held Adam immediately accountable for his sin, humanity would be wiped out and we would not be having this discussion. :lol:

Yes, Jesus died for all sin for all time.
 

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Rev. said:
God didn't make Jesus...Jesus volunteered.

It's not unfair, when you volunteer.

If God had held Adam immediately accountable for his sin, humanity would be wiped out and we would not be having this discussion. :lol:

Yes, Jesus died for all sin for all time.
How could you possibly know this to be true? I doubt if you were there. The Bible has been rewritten how many times? There is no way for anyone living today to know for sure what happen 2000 years ago, with or without a Bible.
 

jallman

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alex said:
How could you possibly know this to be true? I doubt if you were there. The Bible has been rewritten how many times? There is no way for anyone living today to know for sure what happen 2000 years ago, with or without a Bible.
And so, we come back to the question of faith...
 

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jallman said:
And so, we come back to the question of faith...
He did not state what I was responding to as faith. He stated it as fact.

What is faith based on? A deep-seeded feeling? Are feelings always right?

My faith says that a god could not possibly exist. So who is right? Contradicting faiths fall onto evidence for a solution. Is there any evidence to say a god exists?
 
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FallingPianos

alex said:
He did not state what I was responding to as faith. He stated it as fact.

What is faith based on? A deep-seeded feeling? Are feelings always right?

My faith says that a god could not possibly exist. So who is right? Contradicting faiths fall onto evidence for a solution. Is there any evidence to say a god exists?
there is neither evidence for or against his existence.
 

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star2589 said:
there is neither evidence for or against his existence.
But there is evidence for contradicting theories. So which should be believed by people? The one without evidence, or the one with?
 

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alex said:
But there is evidence for contradicting theories. So which should be believed by people? The one without evidence, or the one with?
whichever a person feels most comfortable in believing, so long as he does not force the belief on another of differing conviction.
 
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FallingPianos

alex said:
But there is evidence for contradicting theories. So which should be believed by people? The one without evidence, or the one with?
which contradicting theories?
 

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jallman said:
whichever a person feels most comfortable in believing, so long as he does not force the belief on another of differing conviction.
Very cool.
 

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star2589 said:
which contradicting theories?
Science. There is more evidence that supports the scientific theories of our origins than there is for religion.
 
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alex said:
Science. There is more evidence that supports the scientific theories of our origins than there is for religion.
well, no science confirms or contradicts the existence of god. only the specifics, such as creationism.

but to answer your question, where there is conflict, i'll take science any day.
 

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alex said:
Very cool.
Why thank you. I just want to point out that I am very mindful that one of the problems with religion is that most religions become tainted with the irrelevant belief that conviction involves infliction of beliefs upon others. I am in direct opposition to that way of thinking...I detest evangelists with a passion. A conversation such as this serves just fine as a way of letting your light shine...there is no need to go knocking on doors or passing out pamphlets or inflicting your personal spiritual convictions upon public policy. Simply live your life with respect for others and others will notice that there is something peaceful about you. If they decide to question, then they are inviting your input and if they dont, then they obviously have it worked out for themselves and to disrupt that comfort is tantamount to sin in and of itself.
 

MrFungus420

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jallman said:
We are all born with an original sin
So, we are all held accountable for something that we didn't do.

Well, I guess I know why I've never head it claimed that God is fair.
 

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MrFungus420 said:
So, we are all held accountable for something that we didn't do.

Well, I guess I know why I've never head it claimed that God is fair.
Its no different belief than karma following you from life to life. I dont see so much venom toward that belief.
 

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alphamale said:
Why did God make Jesus die on the cross for our sins?
Evidently, he's a sadist.

Isn't that unfair?
You would think so.


Why not hold each person accountable for their own sins?
Cause some got into his good graces and kissed his ***.

And did Jesus die for the sins up till the time of his death?
He didn't die for sins. That's ridiculous, a 3rd party cannot forgive someone for something they do. That's a bit like if I were to punch you in the face, and I ask God for forgiveness, that's asinine. Only you can forgive me.
 

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alphamale said:
Why did God make Jesus die on the cross for our sins? Isn't that unfair? Why not hold each person accountable for their own sins? And did Jesus die for the sins up till the time of his death?

Aaaah this is the best question! One of the questions I never was able to get a satifactory answer to in Catholic school!! At least satisfactory to me. Why would God want to send his son to die? If God knows everything thats gonna happen before it happens then why would he set this up? What if mankind didn't kill Jesus? What if we let God's son live instead of crucifying him? Would that have made God unhappy? How weird is that? How can babies be born with sin? If God needed a big bloody sacrifice couldn't he have sent a big sheep vs his only begotten son? If people didn't go to heaven before Jesus died on the cross where did they go?

For awhile I used to think that Jesus did not die for our sins per se....I believed he died to show us that there was no need to fear death if we believed in God. Anotherwards he had to be set up to die to show us that death was not the end. That this life is not as important as what comes next. That certainly seems a more reasonable explanation to me but alas that is not the explanation the Catholic faith gives.
 

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kal-el said:
Evidently, he's a sadist.

You would think so.

Cause some got into his good graces and kissed his ***.

He didn't die for sins. That's ridiculous, a 3rd party cannot forgive someone for something they do. That's a bit like if I were to punch you in the face, and I ask God for forgiveness, that's asinine. Only you can forgive me.
Okay, kel, come on...you are pretty level headed so lets discuss this without all the venom, alright. Now, bear with me for a minute...

I agree that only the person you inflicted harm on can offer you his forgiveness...but there also has to be an outlet finding forgiveness for yourself. But multiple people are harmed when one commits sin...I'm not talking about eating shellfish as a sin or having love for another human being that you shouldnt sin or assinine cant wear blended fabrics sin. Those arent sins, they arent even real transgressions. Sin is by design, something that can have no positive result. A real sin is something that causes you to be damned if you do and damned if you dont. God doesnt want you to sin, because he doesnt want you to suffer the negative results of doing so.

When one lies, for example...he is not only hurting the person he is lying to...he is hurting himself. Its like he is forcing himself into loneliness because he is making it impossible for anyone to truly know him. If he comes clean with the lies, then he alienates himself still because no one can truly trust him at that point. So, its better not to lie.

When one kills for gain, he must always remember the life he took and he also knows for certain that human life can be taken, so he lives in a sense of fear for his own life. Its like an innocence is deliberately destroyed.

Those are just a couple of examples...God offers some people a way to process the sin they see and provides something to strive toward as a means of ending the natural and negative tendency of man to be self destructive.
 

MrFungus420

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jallman said:
Its no different belief than karma following you from life to life. I dont see so much venom toward that belief.
There is a major difference. Karma is supposed to be because of your actions, not anyone else's.

Original sin is a concept that holds you responsible for something done by someone else.
 
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