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Question 11 for Christians

alphamale

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If God is all-powerful, He knows the future. Christians say people choose hell, they have free choice. But if God knows the future, He knows which ones will choose Hell. Isn't that self-contradictory?

Either

1. God is not all powerful, because He doesn't know which ones will choose hell,

Or

2. He IS all powerful, knows the future, and knows who will choose hell. If He knows He created some people who will choose hell, why would He have created them, knowing they will fail?
 

Rev.

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alphamale said:
If God is all-powerful, He knows the future. Christians say people choose hell, they have free choice. But if God knows the future, He knows which ones will choose Hell. Isn't that self-contradictory?

Either

1. God is not all powerful, because He doesn't know which ones will choose hell,

Or

2. He IS all powerful, knows the future, and knows who will choose hell. If He knows He created some people who will choose hell, why would He have created them, knowing they will fail?

One of the hallmarks of Christianity is that many opposing ideas are true, both at the same time.

God is One. God is trinitarian.

Jesus is 100% man. Jesus is 100% divine.

God is Sovereign. We have free will.


We twist our brains into knots trying to figure it all out...and one of the things that will lead us straight to a dead end is the idea that one statement necessarily cancels the other, as in "If Jesus is man, he is not God. If God is one, he is not trinitarian." However, there is another way to approach these opposing ideas...by holding them in tension. Like a string that is being pulled by equal force on both ends, it will remain tight so long as the force on both ends is equal. But it one end gets more force than the other, the string will yank and break.

Another way of looking at it is to consider a diamond. A diamond has many facets, as does God. But if you only look at one side, you will not be able to see the others. If you only look at God's omniscience, you can't see our free will. If you only look at God's justice, you can't see his mercy. If you only look at God's holiness, you can't see his grace. You have to look at the whole diamond to see the sparkle. And you have to look at God as a whole...the big picture.

I know it's tough trying to hold all those ideas in your view all at the same time...but we do it all the time with one another. For example, I am a Mom. I am a wife. I am a daughter. I am a sister. How can I be 100% all of these things all at the same time? I just am, and we don't spend to much time dwelling on it...we accept it is so. In the same way, God is Sovereign yet grants us free will at the same time. How? He just does.
 

justone

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Rev. said:
one of the things that will lead us straight to a dead end is the idea that one statement necessarily cancels the other,...
However, there is another way to approach these opposing ideas...by holding them in tension. Like a string that is being pulled by equal force on both ends
It somewhat looks like you are talking about dialectics which would put on a listener a requirement of some ability to think. Somebody said that an ability to keep in mind 2 opposite things at the same time and still preserve an ability of rational thinking is sign of a brilliant mind. Something like this.
So I don’t know whether your explanation would work; because if the listener originally had a developed ability of a thinking process he - most likely -won’t be asking the question... But I may have a wrong impression about the listener. We will see.
 

Apostle13

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Rev. said:
One of the hallmarks of Christianity is that many opposing ideas are true, both at the same time.

God is One. God is trinitarian.

Jesus is 100% man. Jesus is 100% divine.

God is Sovereign. We have free will.


We twist our brains into knots trying to figure it all out...and one of the things that will lead us straight to a dead end is the idea that one statement necessarily cancels the other, as in "If Jesus is man, he is not God. If God is one, he is not trinitarian." However, there is another way to approach these opposing ideas...by holding them in tension. Like a string that is being pulled by equal force on both ends, it will remain tight so long as the force on both ends is equal. But it one end gets more force than the other, the string will yank and break.

Another way of looking at it is to consider a diamond. A diamond has many facets, as does God. But if you only look at one side, you will not be able to see the others. If you only look at God's omniscience, you can't see our free will. If you only look at God's justice, you can't see his mercy. If you only look at God's holiness, you can't see his grace. You have to look at the whole diamond to see the sparkle. And you have to look at God as a whole...the big picture.

I know it's tough trying to hold all those ideas in your view all at the same time...but we do it all the time with one another. For example, I am a Mom. I am a wife. I am a daughter. I am a sister. How can I be 100% all of these things all at the same time? I just am, and we don't spend to much time dwelling on it...we accept it is so. In the same way, God is Sovereign yet grants us free will at the same time. How? He just does.
This is good Rev.
Mind if I preach it?
 

Synch

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Read something like this on wikipedia.

God can do anything, so it can be illogical and not follow the rules of logic...

Therefore they can have free will and he can know everything at the same time.
 

Jerry

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alphamale said:
If God is all-powerful, He knows the future. Christians say people choose hell, they have free choice. But if God knows the future, He knows which ones will choose Hell. Isn't that self-contradictory?

Either

1. God is not all powerful, because He doesn't know which ones will choose hell,

Or

2. He IS all powerful, knows the future, and knows who will choose hell. If He knows He created some people who will choose hell, why would He have created them, knowing they will fail?
Everyone will be with God in the end.
 

AlbqOwl

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Jerry said:
Everyone will be with God in the end.
This is a comforting thought, but it would deny the concept of free will would it not? It would not allow for the possibility of rejecting an opportunity to be with God in the 'end' (whatever or however we define that).

Rev's metaphor of the diamond was excellent and I too would like to use it with her permission. But even there, it is so difficult to wrap our minds around an omniscient God who knows every detail of what is to come and yet we have complete free will (i.e. choice). It doesn't compute does it?

I like to think that God knows everything about me at this moment and, given the course that I am and everybody else is on at this moment in time, He can look ahead and see the results. But should I or anybody else change our course at this time, it produces a different outcome and God can see that too. In other words whatever we choose, whether it be good or evil, there will be consequences for that however minute or comparatively insignificant. The choices of the cumulative whole, however, are monumental.

Can I prove this or even state it with any certainty? Of course not, because none of us can know more than a minute knowledge of the being that we call God. But God gave us the ability to reason, and this is a reasonable explanation. It works for me until I am privy to further revelation. :smile:
 

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Jerry said:
Everyone will be with God in the end.
AlbqOwl said:
This is a comforting thought, but it would deny the concept of free will would it not? It would not allow for the possibility of rejecting an opportunity to be with God in the 'end' (whatever or however we define that).
I also take some issue here for said same reason. It is not relative to my own biblical interpretation/doctrinal theology... Perhaps Jerry you could elaborate this ideal/provide us with some scriptural basis..? I understand that as Christians, even still, we cannot always agree. I don't wish to debate it, just curious of its theological origin..?
 

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Just becuase someone knows what you are going to do doesn't mean that you don't chose it.
 

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Donkey1499 said:
Just because Colbert is afraid of bears it doesn't mean that he isn't sensible!
Thank you Donkey.

He is afraid of bears because he is sensible.

Anyway, how would knowing what someone is going to do negate their free will?
 

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-Demosthenes- said:
Thank you Donkey.

He is afraid of bears because he is sensible.

Anyway, how would knowing what someone is going to do negate their free will?
I don't know. Sounds kinda dumb to me. I knew that I was going to eat a sandwich today, but I still had the choice of eating a salad.
 

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alphamale said:
If God is all-powerful, He knows the future. Christians say people choose hell, they have free choice. But if God knows the future, He knows which ones will choose Hell. Isn't that self-contradictory?

Either

1. God is not all powerful, because He doesn't know which ones will choose hell,

Or

2. He IS all powerful, knows the future, and knows who will choose hell. If He knows He created some people who will choose hell, why would He have created them, knowing they will fail?
He is all powerfull because either one we chose, life will go on. The free will is for us to chose which "sin less" life we want.

If all people decide to be and act like beasts, intelligent, calculating, predatory to feed the hunger driving life, remorseless, guiltless, indifferent, more egotist and less connected to others, not knowing any better is a kind of heaven.

Humans have compassion, more scarifice than even lower mammals. The motherly instinct of lower animals is loving, yet we go farther. A human mother will starve to feed her child, a bear will eat her cub. We both will protect our young, but an animal will leave if life intelligence says "flee or lose your own life," humans mothers will die for their young.

It is in seeing that life is in its origin this way, seeing we are of it, commit it, endorse it, and participate in this form of living, highly intelligent, but cruel that makes us choose "hell" after all it works and of this earth I see it does work very well.

The opposite is compasssion and humanity, not only me me me, but we we we. This radical ideal of giving, sharing, non violence, connection, and wisdom to all would be sinless too. Full of wisdom for all, not intelligence of self.

Give up my food? Any animal will attack you for they fight for it. Give what I have to others? Those beasts of men will take take take, and leave me nothing. Yet if all follow, there is never need or hunger if I give my best to all I meet without reguard to myself.

Animals look out only for self first, pure. Human can follow or look out for others outside of self first, pure. Are we guarenteed one or the other? We sure are, and only we can decide how we will act to deserve what we create.

KMS
 

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Donkey1499 said:
I don't know. Sounds kinda dumb to me. I knew that I was going to eat a sandwich today, but I still had the choice of eating a salad.
Or wouldn't it be more accurate to say that given the choice between a sandwich and a salad today, you know you would choose the sandwich?

Conversely, I think sensible people give wide berth to bears that they encounter in the woods or any other place where the bear is not confined. What we fear, prudently or imprudently, is generally not a matter of choice. It would not be sensible however to fear the bear in the zoo when you're safely outside the cage or whatever. That also would most likely not be a matter of choice either.
 

Jerry

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Apostle13 said:
I also take some issue here for said same reason. It is not relative to my own biblical interpretation/doctrinal theology... Perhaps Jerry you could elaborate this ideal/provide us with some scriptural basis..? I understand that as Christians, even still, we cannot always agree. I don't wish to debate it, just curious of its theological origin..?
I shall rephrase:
Everyone will choose to be with God in the end.

God knows that once we have had our life review and the whole body of knowledge and truth is before us, we will each choose to be with Him.

Though I do not base this conclusion on scripture, scripture does support it.
Given that:
Joel 2:32;
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Acts 2:21;
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved

Romans 10:13;
“for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
2 Timothy 2:19;
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," [Num. 16:5] and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

…..and…..

Matthew 7:21;
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

…..calling on the name of the LORD is far more than a mere verbal utterance. It is a lifestyle, a mind set, an attitude.

Thus, pursuant to Romans 2:12-15;
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

……one does not need to be a Christian in order to live by and invoke the name of the LORD. One does not need to accept their most problebly flawed and misguided understanding of Jesus in order for God to know them.

Referring back to Matthew 7:21, in part; “…but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven [will enter the kingdom]…”.

So, the question is, what exactly is the will of God? How are we to know that someone doing a bad thing was not meant to happen? Sure, a given sin contradicts God’s law, but was that sin supposed to happen for a reason? I think so.

Beyond scripture, I also consider eye witness accounts of what it is to be in the presence of God, to judge one’s self, and what modern words of wisdom can be imparted upon Man.

Among these eye witness accounts I include Betty J. Eadie, the work of Dr. Sam Parnia and Michael Sabom M.D..

All such eye witnesses who go before God and come back tell us not to worry, that everything is as it should be, and that all who were with God in the beginning will be with Him in the end.


Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Matthew 6:34


Ya dig?
 
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-Demosthenes-

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Everyone will choose to be with God in the end.
It says that those who "call on the Lord" or "Believe on his name" will be saved. If your conclusion isn't based on scripture, I'm curious what it is based on. Just a belief?
 

Apostle13

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Jerry said:
I shall rephrase:
Everyone will choose to be with God in the end.

God knows that once we have had our life review and the whole body of knowledge and truth is before us, we will each choose to be with Him.

Though I do not base this conclusion on scripture, scripture does support it.
Given that:
Joel 2:32;
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Acts 2:21;
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved

Romans 10:13;
“for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
2 Timothy 2:19;
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," [Num. 16:5] and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

…..and…..

Matthew 7:21;
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

…..calling on the name of the LORD is far more than a mere verbal utterance. It is a lifestyle, a mind set, an attitude.

Thus, pursuant to Romans 2:12-15;
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

……one does not need to be a Christian in order to live by and invoke the name of the LORD. One does not need to accept their most problebly flawed and misguided understanding of Jesus in order for God to know them.

Referring back to Matthew 7:21, in part; “…but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven [will enter the kingdom]…”.

So, the question is, what exactly is the will of God? How are we to know that someone doing a bad thing was not meant to happen? Sure, a given sin contradicts God’s law, but was that sin supposed to happen for a reason? I think so.

Beyond scripture, I also consider eye witness accounts of what it is to be in the presence of God, to judge one’s self, and what modern words of wisdom can be imparted upon Man.

Among these eye witness accounts I include Betty J. Eadie, the work of Dr. Sam Parnia and Michael Sabom M.D..

All such eye witnesses who go before God and come back tell us not to worry, that everything is as it should be, and that all who were with God in the beginning will be with Him in the end.


Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Matthew 6:34


Ya dig?
I don't know Jerry it all seems a bit speculative at best to me... But I think I know what you may trying to convey... Possibly a slight bit of a retraction from your original post brought to question..?
It is interesting to note that Jesus Himself speaks nearly twice more often of Hell than Heaven... He also states in Matthew 7:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life eternal, and only a few find it".
The implicative is that far more will be separated from God in the end day, than not.
When I myself am clouded with uncertainty pertaining to scriptural meaning/proper context. I always retreat to this key to prayer given us by James: If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
This prayer for me brings about great advantages and relative foresight.
 

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There is a doctrine that has plagued the church since the early days called "Universalism." Basically, it teaches that everyone will eventually get to heaven. Hell is temporary, and people who go there are only there for a time...eventually they can advance to heaven. Universalists talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit...but they mean something else when they do.
 

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Rev. said:
There is a doctrine that has plagued the church since the early days called "Universalism." Basically, it teaches that everyone will eventually get to heaven. Hell is temporary, and people who go there are only there for a time...eventually they can advance to heaven. Universalists talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit...but they mean something else when they do.
Since I believe that God gives us free will to choose, I have to believe that we can choose our ultimate destiny. In fact, that may be the only thing in the universe in which we have 100% complete choice.

So far as what the results of that choice will be, I don't think any of us know for certain what to expect. Now we see through a dark glass, but until we can see face to face, we don't know exactly what it will be like, but I think we can expect to exceed all our expectations.
 

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"So far as what the results of that choice will be, I don't think any of us know for certain what to expect. Now we see through a dark glass, but until we can see face to face, we don't know exactly what it will be like, but I think we can expect to exceed all our expectations."

I know because I have faith what my destiny will be. God has made promises to those who have accepted Him. It's called eternal life in heaven with HIM. :2razz:
 

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Rev. said:
There is a doctrine that has plagued the church since the early days called "Universalism." Basically, it teaches that everyone will eventually get to heaven. Hell is temporary, and people who go there are only there for a time...eventually they can advance to heaven. Universalists talk about Jesus and the Holy Spirit...but they mean something else when they do.
Thanks Rev. I was trying to get a lable on it but wasn't sure yet.
Since I admittingly know little if not nothing about Universalist, could you please expand on your last sentence?
 

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Apostle13 said:
Thanks Rev. I was trying to get a lable on it but wasn't sure yet.
Since I admittingly know little if not nothing about Universalist, could you please expand on your last sentence?
Universalists don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person, they say He is a "force." They also reject the diety of Christ, saying He is not God but a Son of the "Universal God".
 

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Rev. said:
Universalists don't believe the Holy Spirit is a person, they say He is a "force." They also reject the diety of Christ, saying He is not God but a Son of the "Universal God".
What would you do if God was just screwin' with ya and used finger puppets to talk to you? Would you listen, laugh, be frightened, run, what?
 
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