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Question 1 for Christians

alphamale

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(Just for the record, I am an agnostic.)

If God is all-powerful, he must know the outcome of everyone's life on earth. That being the case, how can he condemn some to hell?
 

Apostle13

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alphamale said:
(Just for the record, I am an agnostic.)

If God is all-powerful, he must know the outcome of everyone's life on earth. That being the case, how can he condemn some to hell?
Who can know the mind of God? As Christians we do not claim to in full... And the one who does is surely a liar. We do however share / know the heart of God. That is "that none should perish, but that all come to the knowledge of repentance through Christ Jesus". It is our own free will that is the lead determining factor. God is not bordered / limited by time. He transcends these corridors in such a way that we cannot comprehend, for as men we are yet limited, not only by time, knowledge also. The Psalmist begs the questions; "What is man that you are mindful of him? The son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels and crowned him with glory and honor". The wisdom of God far outweighs that of man... And I can tell you by reasons of my own experience Godly wisdom is attainable to man and measured according to our individual faiths, for "it is faith that pleases God".
He as the bible tells us is a "just and merciful God". He does not condemn people to hell... People condemn their own selves. In His infinite mercies He has provided for us a way through the blood sacrifice of His only begotten son. How we as individuals exercise our own free will by adherence, or no, is freely our choice, and ultimately, our reward/consequence.
 

talloulou

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alphamale said:
(Just for the record, I am an agnostic.)

If God is all-powerful, he must know the outcome of everyone's life on earth. That being the case, how can he condemn some to hell?
He's real mean and hot tempered! Didn't you read the old testament?:cool: :rofl
 

Blue Collar Joe

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alphamale said:
(Just for the record, I am an agnostic.)

If God is all-powerful, he must know the outcome of everyone's life on earth. That being the case, how can he condemn some to hell?
Freedom of choice is what we all have as individuals. However, Hell is not the place everyone has been led to believe. It is nothing more than the common grave. The dead no nothing, feel nothing and hear nothing. Death is death.
 

Captain America

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Blue Collar Joe said:
Freedom of choice is what we all have as individuals. However, Hell is not the place everyone has been led to believe. It is nothing more than the common grave. The dead no nothing, feel nothing and hear nothing. Death is death.
That sounds like the time before we were born. Nothingness. Thats pretty much how logic dictates it will be after we are dead. But then again, who needs logic when ya got religion? :mrgreen:
 

Blue Collar Joe

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Captain America said:
That sounds like the time before we were born. Nothingness. Thats pretty much how logic dictates it will be after we are dead. But then again, who needs logic when ya got religion? :mrgreen:
CA, what I am referencing is in the Bible. Simply read up on Lazarus as the quickest route to that information.
After Armegeddon, those who are resurrected get another chance. Those who aren't simply cease to be. The use of Hell in most religious teachings is an idiotic, and incorrect, methodology.
A merciful God would smite enemies, but he would not condemn them to eternal torment.
 

tecoyah

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Blue Collar Joe said:
Freedom of choice is what we all have as individuals. However, Hell is not the place everyone has been led to believe. It is nothing more than the common grave. The dead no nothing, feel nothing and hear nothing. Death is death.
Its so nice to finally "Know" what hell is ...thanks so much for clarifying this issue for us ignorant Pagans , as we do not hear the voices of God in our heads. I only wish I knew this before I booked my suite on the sixth level, of a non existant vacation spot.

Seriously, this is the issue many have with Christianity. You dont Phrase your belief as a mere belief, but as fact. For many this relinquishes your statement to the Ignore section of the brain, if only because it generally shows a mind so closed it has no Idea theres even a window behind the blinds.
 

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Blue Collar Joe said:
CA, what I am referencing is in the Bible. Simply read up on Lazarus as the quickest route to that information.
After Armegeddon, those who are resurrected get another chance. Those who aren't simply cease to be. The use of Hell in most religious teachings is an idiotic, and incorrect, methodology.
A merciful God would smite enemies, but he would not condemn them to eternal torment.
Oh yeah man. Roger that.:roll:
 

Captain America

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tecoyah said:
For many this relinquishes your statement to the Ignore section of the brain, if only because it generally shows a mind so closed it has no Idea theres even a window behind the blinds.
Then when why do you let it bother you enough to cause you to post such a condescending remark to those "faithful" people who "believe?"

I think they're cute.
 

tecoyah

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Captain America said:
Then when why do you let it bother you enough to cause you to post such a condescending remark to those "faithful" people who "believe?"

I think they're cute.
It does not bother me much, My post was an attempt to point out opposing opinion, and perhaps help someone reach a broader audience they might be seeking with the message. The sarcasm was meant as humor....which I rather enjoy.
 

Blue Collar Joe

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tecoyah said:
It does not bother me much, My post was an attempt to point out opposing opinion, and perhaps help someone reach a broader audience they might be seeking with the message. The sarcasm was meant as humor....which I rather enjoy.
My comment was not meant to be condescending, merely that I am going off the words in the Bible itself. Belief is an act of faith, which is a personal decision.
Each of us must, individually, decide, by looking in our own hearts, whether we choose to believe or not. Nothing more.
 

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alphamale said:
(Just for the record, I am an agnostic.)

If God is all-powerful, he must know the outcome of everyone's life on earth. That being the case, how can he condemn some to hell?
Here is my belief in Hell and Heaven.

Our souls are eternal. While our souls occupy our human selves we are constantly learning and moving towards either an inner enlightenment or inner darkness. This movement depends on our actions here on earth. Now as living beings we cannot see the collection of knowledge our soul has gained through its eternal life thus far. Once we die this knowledge comes into being and all that we really know is clear. Now on rare occasions our living bodies connect to our soul’s knowledge and this is seen as instinct or "gut feeling". Once your living body connects to your soul completely you have reached an inner enlightenment.

Our souls keep coming back to earth as new individuals until this inner enlightenment is reached by some means (either by ourselves, an individual, or our personal faith).

Hell is created by us. When we die and retrieve the knowledge from our eternal soul we put ourselves into a personal hell or self punishment (unconsciously of course) if we have taken a path towards inner darkness. This hell is real in every way possible and is most difficult to escape without help.

Heaven is the clarity our soul is in when we reach enlightenment. Heaven is whatever you personally want it to be. I may see it as beautiful landscape where I live my life in peace and happiness with my family. Others might see it as cloud city. Whatever surroundings make you the utmost happy.

Purgatory is the place we go after we die when we still have questions about our existence. Here you have the choice to stay as long as you wish, time is nothing. These questions need to be answered by us, no one can tell us the answer. To gain answers to our lingering questions we can take the path back to earth and be reborn or simply converse with other in purgatory. I also think those in Heaven have the choice to visit purgatory anytime they wish to help their loved ones along to the right path.
 

alphamale

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Apostle13 said:
Who can know the mind of God? As Christians we do not claim to in full... And the one who does is surely a liar. We do however share / know the heart of God.
Why would god keep it a mystery?

He as the bible tells us is a "just and merciful God". He does not condemn people to hell... People condemn their own selves. In His infinite mercies He has provided for us a way through the blood sacrifice of His only begotten son.
Why can't he give foolish sinning people a "pardon", especially if he is infinitely merciful?
 

jallman

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alphamale said:
Why would god keep it a mystery?



Why can't he give foolish sinning people a "pardon", especially if he is infinitely merciful?
Actually, truth be told, and I can say this with some measure of authority on the subject...not to say I am a devoutly spiritual man nor that I am a committed scholar...just that I dabbled with the idea of entering the priesthood at one point so I read as much as I could get my hands on...

There are gospels of other apostles which were intentionally left out of the bible because they were not conducive to controlling the peasantry...gospels which undermine the infallible authority of the church. Among these is the Gospel of St Thomas in which the exact question you ask was posed. The response was sort of...dont tell anyone, but even those who go to hell eventually get out."

I very much hate the idea that my own church was so influential in the contamination of christianity based purely upon political motivation. I think, in the end, good sense wins out because I have even had a nun tell me that hell is more or less a contrived tool of the church and that one should live life with respect for God and other people without fear of being punished for mere human short-comings. I tend to go with Sister Darlene on this one.
 

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jallman said:
Actually, truth be told, and I can say this with some measure of authority on the subject...not to say I am a devoutly spiritual man nor that I am a committed scholar...just that I dabbled with the idea of entering the priesthood at one point so I read as much as I could get my hands on...

There are gospels of other apostles which were intentionally left out of the bible because they were not conducive to controlling the peasantry...gospels which undermine the infallible authority of the church. Among these is the Gospel of St Thomas in which the exact question you ask was posed. The response was sort of...dont tell anyone, but even those who go to hell eventually get out."
Not only did the Council on Nicea leave out many gospels it is also rumored that they edited gospels that were put in the bible. An exmaple would be that the Gospel of Mark was something like 200 pages longer then the one put into the bible.

I suggest reading any of Elaine Pagels books.
 

jallman

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Gibberish said:
Not only did the Council on Nicea leave out many gospels it is also rumored that they edited gospels that were put in the bible. An exmaple would be that the Gospel of Mark was something like 200 pages longer then the one put into the bible.

I suggest reading any of Elaine Pagels books.
Yes, she definitely comes to mind as a true authority on the subject.
 

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AnarchyintheUS said:
The real question for Christians is: How can you be a Christian?
The simple answer would be if they believe in the bible, Jesus is the door way to heaven, and in the holy trinity.
 

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AnarchyintheUS said:
The real question for Christians is: How can you be a Christian?
Before I answer...is this an honest inquiry or are you making a flaming rhetorical attack on our spiritual beliefs?
 

AnarchyintheUS

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No this is an honest inquiry. I myself am not a Christian, though I was raised in a strict protestant household for 18 years, so I am well acquainted with Christianity and the bible.

I only wonder because in my opinion I see organized religion as spiritually unnecessary. Religion was created in order to explain things that we could not explain by science. Religion has also been an effective way of keeping a hierarchical society in place, and I believe that it has caused people not to think. I am referring to mainstream Christianity of course, specifically the fanatic religious right who I see as no better than terrorists.

I just see religion as an impediance to progress. An inherently conservative and regressive institution that oppresses the people of the world and causes them to rest on the idea that "God as a plan" rather than to figure out what is really going on.

On a personal note, my major split from Christianity came when the pastor of the church that I attended was condeming homosexuals and referred to them as an abomination of nature who need to be reformed.
 
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Blue Collar Joe said:
My comment was not meant to be condescending, merely that I am going off the words in the Bible itself. Belief is an act of faith, which is a personal decision.
Each of us must, individually, decide, by looking in our own hearts, whether we choose to believe or not. Nothing more.
Are the feelings of the heart always correct?
 

jallman

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AnarchyintheUS said:
No this is an honest inquiry. I myself am not a Christian, though I was raised in a strict protestant household for 18 years, so I am well acquainted with Christianity and the bible.

I only wonder because in my opinion I see organized religion as spiritually unnecessary. Religion was created in order to explain things that we could not explain by science. Religion has also been an effective way of keeping a hierarchical society in place, and I believe that it has caused people not to think. I am referring to mainstream Christianity of course, specifically the fanatic religious right who I see as no better than terrorists.

I just see religion as an impediance to progress. An inherently conservative and regressive institution that oppresses the people of the world and causes them to rest on the idea that "God as a plan" rather than to figure out what is really going on.

On a personal note, my major split from Christianity came when the pastor of the church that I attended was condeming homosexuals and referred to them as an abomination of nature who need to be reformed.
Well, truthfully, I cant stress enough the need to separate the Church from our personal convictions of faith. The dogma of the church is often in direct opposition to God's word and the inherent goodness behind the message of Christianity. At its heart, Christianity is not a religion of judgement and condemnation, but rather a philosophy of respect toward others and stewardship over the earth. Religion...all religions...get twisted and utilized as a tool of control over others. My personal convictions are that if you listen to the heart and dismiss the external contamination of dogma and doctrine, God tells us that we should exert power with eachother rather than power over one another.
 

AnarchyintheUS

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jallman said:
Well, truthfully, I cant stress enough the need to separate the Church from our personal convictions of faith. The dogma of the church is often in direct opposition to God's word and the inherent goodness behind the message of Christianity. At its heart, Christianity is not a religion of judgement and condemnation, but rather a philosophy of respect toward others and stewardship over the earth. Religion...all religions...get twisted and utilized as a tool of control over others. My personal convictions are that if you listen to the heart and dismiss the external contamination of dogma and doctrine, God tells us that we should exert power with eachother rather than power over one another.
Ok this is all well and good, but the question on hand is about organized religion, the institution used to convert others to Christianity. If what you said is what you believe, then great, but that is not the message of mainstream Christianity.

I also have to ask the question: What do you mean when you say exert power with each other? This a very ambiguous and suspect statement because if we exert power with each other over no one then power does not exist, which is something I would like to see. But by exerting power with each other I really don't understand what you mean.
 

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jallman said:
Well, truthfully, I cant stress enough the need to separate the Church from our personal convictions of faith. The dogma of the church is often in direct opposition to God's word and the inherent goodness behind the message of Christianity. At its heart, Christianity is not a religion of judgement and condemnation, but rather a philosophy of respect toward others and stewardship over the earth. Religion...all religions...get twisted and utilized as a tool of control over others. My personal convictions are that if you listen to the heart and dismiss the external contamination of dogma and doctrine, God tells us that we should exert power with eachother rather than power over one another.
Where ... do ... you ... get ...that??? Isn't in the bible that there will be a Judgement Day and a condemnation of some to hell??
 

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alphamale said:
Where ... do ... you ... get ...that??? Isn't in the bible that there will be a Judgement Day and a condemnation of some to hell??
Psst...here is a little secret. Read the book of revelation and see that only Satan gets cast into the pit by the angel michael. Everyone here on earth lives under the reign of christ for another 1000 years. Hearsay from Robertsons and Falwells and others is nothing like going to the source with a mind clear of dogmatic distractions.
 
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