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Quantum Woo for You

Good4Nothin

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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

[Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for seemingly delicate quantum processes.. However, evidence has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis, bird brain navigation, our sense of smell, and brain microtubules. The recent discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT), corroborates the pair's theory and suggests that EEG rhythms also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations. In addition, work from the laboratory of Roderick G. Eckenhoff, MD, at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that anesthesia, which selectively erases consciousness while sparing non-conscious brain activities, acts via microtubules in brain neurons.]

["The origin of consciousness reflects our place in the universe, the nature of our existence. Did consciousness evolve from complex computations among brain neurons, as most scientists assert? Or has consciousness, in some sense, been here all along, as spiritual approaches maintain?" ask Hameroff and Penrose in the current review. "This opens a potential Pandora's Box, but our theory accommodates both these views, suggesting consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, 'proto-conscious' quantum structure of reality."]
 
"Consciousness depends on anharmonic vibrations of microtubules inside neurons, similar to certain kinds of Indian music, but unlike Western music which is harmonic," Hameroff explains.:lamo
 
"Consciousness depends on anharmonic vibrations of microtubules inside neurons, similar to certain kinds of Indian music, but unlike Western music which is harmonic," Hameroff explains.:lamo

I'm glad you are getting a big laugh out of it. I would not expect you to actually read and understand the implications.
 
"Consciousness depends on anharmonic vibrations of microtubules inside neurons, similar to certain kinds of Indian music, but unlike Western music which is harmonic," Hameroff explains.:lamo
So your comment on a serious OP thesis posted by a sincere member is a green proxy emoji laughing its ass off, and you don't even suspect that you are a dogmatist? I presume the ancient wisdom enjoining Man to "Know Thyself" has never found its way into your ken.
 
I'll wait for the peer reviewed study of their work.
 
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

[Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for seemingly delicate quantum processes.. However, evidence has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis, bird brain navigation, our sense of smell, and brain microtubules. The recent discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT), corroborates the pair's theory and suggests that EEG rhythms also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations. In addition, work from the laboratory of Roderick G. Eckenhoff, MD, at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that anesthesia, which selectively erases consciousness while sparing non-conscious brain activities, acts via microtubules in brain neurons.]

["The origin of consciousness reflects our place in the universe, the nature of our existence. Did consciousness evolve from complex computations among brain neurons, as most scientists assert? Or has consciousness, in some sense, been here all along, as spiritual approaches maintain?" ask Hameroff and Penrose in the current review. "This opens a potential Pandora's Box, but our theory accommodates both these views, suggesting consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, 'proto-conscious' quantum structure of reality."]
From https://www.nbcnews.com/science/how-spot-quantum-quackery-6c10403763

Q: Some scientists, such as Sir Roger Penrose, have talked about neurons as quantum systems. And a lot of people talk about quantum consciousness ... that even if the everyday world we see is not a system that can be changed, our consciousness about the world can be changed.

A: Well, Roger Penrose has given lots of new-age crackpots ammunition by suggesting that at some fundamental scale, quantum mechanics might be relevant for consciousness. When you hear the term "quantum consciousness," you should be suspicious. The reason you should be suspicious is because we don't even understand classical consciousness. If we don't understand classical consciousness, how can we understand quantum consciousness? Many people are dubious that Penrose's suggestions are reasonable, because the brain is not an isolated quantum-mechanical system. To some extent it could be, because memories and thoughts are stored at the molecular level, and at a molecular level quantum mechanics is significant. Quantum mechanics may play a role at some level in the way the brain works ... just as it may play a role in photosynthesis.

But that still doesn't mean that, at a global level, the weirdness of quantum mechanics is manifest. It's certainly not. If it were manifest, you could run at a wall a lot of times, and every now and then you'd spontaneously appear on the other side of the wall
 
Exactly how the brain works at a very tiny scale is not fully understood. It may use quantum effects. It may not.

The idea that you could use electrodes on the surface of the skull to see if a particular neuron was or was not using these effeccts to do its' job is beyond laughable. It would be as easy as measuring the sex drive of a flea on an elephants back side from space. Through a vast crowd of other elephants and other fleas.

The brain is full of brain cells each of which have multiple connections. How do you tell what is happening in a single one of those connections?

100 billion cells
The average adult human brain has about 100 billion cells. Linked by synapses, each brain cell can connect to tens of thousands of other brain cells.15 Jun 2018

Even if it is true that nerve cells, or brain cells, use such effects, so what???

How does that mean that conciousness is more than a product of the brain?
 
I can't open the link. Who's the nitwit providing the "A" in your quote balloon? What an argument! Quantum mind cannot be because science, having ignored mind for 400 years, doesn't know what mind is.

https://academic.oup.com/mind


MIND has long been a leading journal in philosophy. For well over 100 years it has published the best new work in all areas of the subject. The journal continues its tradition of excellence today …
Find out more

Some questions about dreaming

Is it possible that we do not experience anything when we dream? Are memories of dreams infallible? Does it make sense to wonder whether a person has remembered a dream correctly?

You really do try hard to amke yourself look utterly pathetic.
 
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I asked you politely to keep your distance. I'm allergic to stupidity. Please be advised.

It is stupid to claim that science has not studied the mind when with a couple of seconds use of google it is clear that there are whole departments of universities studying the mind.

I will not be giving you a fee pass no matter how much you want to bully me away.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Hameroff's 1998 hypothesis required that cortical dendrites contain primarily 'A' lattice microtubules,[42] but in 1994 Kikkawa et al. showed that all in vivo microtubules have a 'B' lattice and a seam.[64][65]

Orch OR also required gap junctions between neurons and glial cells,[42] yet Binmöller et. al. proved in 1992 that these don't exist in the adult brain.[66] In vitro research with primary neuronal cultures shows evidence for electrotonic (gap junction) coupling between immature neurons and astrocytes obtained from rat embryos extracted prematurely through Cesarean section,[67] however, the Orch-OR claim is that mature neurons are electrotonically coupled to astrocytes in the adult brain. Therefore, Orch OR contradicts the well-documented electrotonic decoupling of neurons from astrocytes in the process of neuronal maturation, which is stated by Fróes et al. as follows: "junctional communication may provide metabolic and electrotonic interconnections between neuronal and astrocytic networks at early stages of neural development and such interactions are weakened as differentiation progresses."[67]

In 2001, Hameroff further proposed that microtubule coherence spreads between different neurons via dendritic lamellar bodies (DLBs) that are connected directly with gap junctions.[68] De Zeeuw et al. had already proved this to be impossible in 1995,[69] by showing that DLBs are located micrometers away from gap junctions.[16]

In 2014, Bandyopadhyay et. al. speculated that microtubule-based quantum coherence can extend between different neurons if their notion of wireless transmission of information globally across the entire brain is proven.[70] Hameroff and Penrose doubt whether such a wireless transmission would be capable of transmitting superimposed quantum-states and stick to their original gap junction proposal.[7]

Hameroff speculated that visual photons in the retina are detected directly by the cones and rods instead of decohering and subsequently connect with the retinal glia cells via gap junctions,[42] but this too was falsified.[71]

Other biology-based criticisms have been offered.[72] Papers by Georgiev point to problems with Hameroff's proposals,[16][62] including a lack of explanation for the probabilistic release of neurotransmitter from presynaptic axon terminals[73][74][75] and an error in the calculated number of the tubulin dimers per cortical neuron.[63] Hameroff insisted in a 2013 interview that those falsifications were invalid, but did not provide any explanation where the falsifications fail.[76]

While the actual physics seems sound enough, the theory doesn't match up with the physical structure of neurons and the brain. Just because something's "quantum" doesn't make it mystical or magical.
 
Yes, it was a sad day when the woos discovered the word quantum.
It was a sadder day still when second-handers discovered the word "woo."


By the way, Voracious Reader, when one mentions a word in a sentence, one places the word in scare quotes.
 
There is no scientific consensus on how the brain and mind, or consciousness, are related. Materialism says the brain creates the mind, and if you are an atheist/materialist you will say this theory has been scientifically demonstrated beyond doubt.

Guess again. Materialism has NOT been scientifically demonstrated. There is NO scientific consensus on this question.

The word "woo" gets thrown at the ideas involving quantum physics. As if that word can discredit a theory.

We do know that quantum biology is now accepted and research increasingly shows quantum effects (such as tunneling and entanglement) in biological systems.

So get used to it, materialists. You are very far from having won the debate. In my opinion, you will surely lose. But right now scientists are still working on it and are still arguing with each other.

Materialists have been sounding less confident though.
 
There is no scientific consensus on how the brain and mind, or consciousness, are related. Materialism says the brain creates the mind, and if you are an atheist/materialist you will say this theory has been scientifically demonstrated beyond doubt.

Guess again. Materialism has NOT been scientifically demonstrated. There is NO scientific consensus on this question.

The word "woo" gets thrown at the ideas involving quantum physics. As if that word can discredit a theory.

We do know that quantum biology is now accepted and research increasingly shows quantum effects (such as tunneling and entanglement) in biological systems.

So get used to it, materialists. You are very far from having won the debate. In my opinion, you will surely lose. But right now scientists are still working on it and are still arguing with each other.

Materialists have been sounding less confident though.

Says the person made of material posting on a forum made of material with a device made of material. Next time, use quantum magic and send your message without the use of anything material. When your mind non materially communicates with my mind I will make a material post here to verify it.
 
Says the person made of material posting on a forum made of material with a device made of material. Next time, use quantum magic and send your message without the use of anything material. When your mind non materially communicates with my mind I will make a material post here to verify it.

Excellent job of missing the entire point! Did anyone say matter doesn't exist?
 
Excellent job of missing the entire point! Did anyone say matter doesn't exist?
He's a closet "naive realist" incapable of thinking outside that tiny box. You're wasting your breath trying to get him to think outside the box. I mean, he doesn't even recognize that QM explodes his naive realism.
 
Excellent job of missing the entire point! Did anyone say matter doesn't exist?

So why do you object to materialist explanations? And how is quantum describing anything but the material?
 
He's a closet "naive realist" incapable of thinking outside that tiny box. You're wasting your breath trying to get him to think outside the box. I mean, he doesn't even recognize that QM explodes his naive realism.

QM is about material.
 
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