• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Putin's Party?

Rogue Valley

l’art pour l’art, fonction de baise
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
69,233
Reaction score
53,557
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Putin's Party?

The neo-conservative political analyst and commentator William Krystal bemoans Donald Trump steering the GOP closer to Vladimir Putin.
 

shagg

Wading Through Bull****
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
1,681
Reaction score
1,219
Location
Rhode Island
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well my oh my, I'm almost scared enough to vote for Shillary. Almost. Ok, not really.
 

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
If Trump wins this stupid conspiracy theory is going to be around for years to come. Sigh.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,638
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
If Trump wins this stupid conspiracy theory is going to be around for years to come. Sigh.

We do not need a "conspiracy theory" for this. The hack was pretty surely Russian and the use was not to help Trump but to harm the country. Trump is incidental here.
 

Romanii

Banned
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
36
Reaction score
14
Location
Dallas, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Good grief... the Neo-Con criticisms of Trump's foreign policy are all so painfully stupid. One could be forgiven for thinking that people like Bill Krystal look back *fondly* upon the days of the Cold War. Can someone please explain to me why turning our geopolitical rivals into enemies by collectively branding them as an "axis of evil" is a better plan than trying to diplomatically resolve our differences with them? The former strategy sounds like a great way to cause World War III.
 
Last edited:

Moot

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,426
Reaction score
15,333
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
WOW!!! That's some very damning evidence against Trump. It makes Hillary's connection to Russia look like small potatoes.

Paul Manofart's connections to Ukraine is vewy intwestink . And all those Trump connections to Russian oligarchs....vewy, vewy intwestink, indeed.

We are definitely going to need to see Mr. Trump's tax returns.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Good grief... the Neo-Con criticisms of Trump's foreign policy are all so painfully stupid. One could be forgiven for thinking that people like Bill Krystal look back *fondly* upon the days of the Cold War. Can someone please explain to me why turning our geopolitical rivals into enemies by collectively branding them as an "axis of evil" is a better plan than trying to diplomatically resolve our differences with them? The former strategy sounds like a great way to cause World War III.

You don't "resolve your differences" with hyper aggressive, tolitarian states like China, Russia, or even, on a lesser note, Iran or North Korea(Iraq and Syria before they fell apart).

And adding to that, would you argue countries like North Korea aren't evil?
 

Mr Person

A Little Bitter
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
52,026
Reaction score
37,005
Location
Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Well my oh my, I'm almost scared enough to vote for Shillary. Almost. Ok, not really.

It's not this thread that should have had that effect...
 

MaggieD

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,662
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Simpleχity;1066126385 said:
Putin's Party?

The neo-conservative political analyst and commentator William Krystal bemoans Donald Trump steering the GOP closer to Vladimir Putin.

So ridiculous. Look over here!!! Look at what Donald Trump did!!! Almost makes me physically ill.
 

Romanii

Banned
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
36
Reaction score
14
Location
Dallas, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
You don't "resolve your differences" with hyper aggressive, tolitarian states like China, Russia, or even, on a lesser note, Iran or North Korea(Iraq and Syria before they fell apart).

Well, that's exactly the sort of unwarranted mindset I'm objecting to... those states may have unsavory leaders, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of coming to some sort of mutually-beneficial diplomatic agreement.

And adding to that, would you argue countries like North Korea aren't evil?

No. Cooperating with a country for peace-making purposes doesn't indicate approval of its leaders' moral character.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well, that's exactly the sort of unwarranted mindset I'm objecting to... those states may have unsavory leaders, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of coming to some sort of mutually-beneficial diplomatic agreement.



No. Cooperating with a country for peace-making purposes doesn't indicate approval of its leaders' moral character.

Countries like that don't see the point of diplomacy. To them, "diplomacy"= "you give us what we want, period. End of story. We don't give anything up".
 

Coldwine

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
120
Reaction score
61
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Countries like that don't see the point of diplomacy. To them, "diplomacy"= "you give us what we want, period. End of story. We don't give anything up".

Is there something fundamentally different about these polities? Sure, they pursue their own interests. That's what states do. That's the prime premise of realism. Your unspoken assumption seems to be that their interests and our interests will never overlap in a complicated world. I don't see how that can be supported. So long as interests overlap, temporary, mutually beneficial accords can be reached. To preclude that possibility because of black-and-white thinking seems unwise.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Is there something fundamentally different about these polities? Sure, they pursue their own interests. That's what states do. That's the prime premise of realism. Your unspoken assumption seems to be that their interests and our interests will never overlap in a complicated world. I don't see how that can be supported. So long as interests overlap, temporary, mutually beneficial accords can be reached. To preclude that possibility because of black-and-white thinking seems unwise.

Most of the time the interests don't overlap. That's the thing.
 

Coldwine

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
120
Reaction score
61
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Most of the time the interests don't overlap. That's the thing.

I'd disagree with that; they certainly have with China. They're starting to with Iran. And they do with Russia when it comes to Syria. Russia and China also squabble over natural gas pipelines in Central Asia from time to time, and there are benefits to reap by taking a side quietly in those conflicts. I just think that Americans in general have psychological issues with Russia due to decades of Cold War propaganda.
 

Romanii

Banned
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
36
Reaction score
14
Location
Dallas, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Countries like that don't see the point of diplomacy. To them, "diplomacy"= "you give us what we want, period. End of story. We don't give anything up".

Lol no, their leaders aren't idiots. They're rational actors, and they recognize the military supremacy of the United States. Don't fall for the melodramatic posturing of our warhawk politicians. Painting those countries as bloodthirsty monsters hellbent on world domination may be useful for scaring potential voters into action, but it's entirely counter-productive from a pragmatic standpoint.
 

Abbazorkzog

Zapatista Libertarian
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
12,199
Reaction score
4,079
Location
#TrumpWasAnInsideJob
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Simpleχity;1066126385 said:
Putin's Party?

The neo-conservative political analyst and commentator William Krystal bemoans Donald Trump steering the GOP closer to Vladimir Putin.

The Clintons sold a fifth of the petroleum preserves in the U.S. to the Kremlin. Who's to say Hillary isn't working with Vladimir Putin as well?
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'd disagree with that; they certainly have with China. They're starting to with Iran. And they do with Russia when it comes to Syria. Russia and China also squabble over natural gas pipelines in Central Asia from time to time, and there are benefits to reap by taking a side quietly in those conflicts. I just think that Americans in general have psychological issues with Russia due to decades of Cold War propaganda.

China and the US' interests are sharply diverging in the South China Sea. Iran is starting to mellow but they still aren't exactly trustworthy. Putin's Russia is very aggressive.

The "propaganda" was basically true. It's hard to be much worse then the USSR.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Lol no, their leaders aren't idiots. They're rational actors, and they recognize the military supremacy of the United States. Don't fall for the melodramatic posturing of our warhawk politicians. Painting those countries as bloodthirsty monsters hellbent on world domination may be useful for scaring voters to their side, but it's entirely counter-productive from a pragmatic standpoint.

Rational actors? That's more then a little optimistic, especially in regards to countries like North Korea.

It's naive to think that countries like Russia and China are just waiting to make a deal.
 

Coldwine

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
120
Reaction score
61
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
China and the US' interests are sharply diverging in the South China Sea.

China will probably soften their line on that soon. If not, it was a long time coming, as our projection of power into East Asia was never going to be a permanent thing. The South China Sea isn't exactly a huge diplomatic priority to us.

Iran is starting to mellow but they still aren't exactly trustworthy.

Good diplomacy is based on predictable interests, not trust.

Putin's Russia is very aggressive.

It's irredentist. That's different.

The "propaganda" was basically true. It's hard to be much worse then the USSR.

If it were true, propaganda would have been unnecessary. The USSR was certainly opposed to us, and we had the clout for policies like containment. But they weren't an Evil Empire.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
China will probably soften their line on that soon. If not, it was a long time coming, as our projection of power into East Asia was never going to be a permanent thing. The South China Sea isn't exactly a huge diplomatic priority to us.



Good diplomacy is based on predictable interests, not trust.



It's irredentist. That's different.



If it were true, propaganda would have been unnecessary. The USSR was certainly opposed to us, and we had the clout for policies like containment. But they weren't an Evil Empire.

Yeah, they were an evil empire. The fact that you would say otherwise......
 

Fishking

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
31,777
Reaction score
11,550
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
You don't "resolve your differences" with hyper aggressive, tolitarian states like China, Russia, or even, on a lesser note, Iran or North Korea(Iraq and Syria before they fell apart).

And adding to that, would you argue countries like North Korea aren't evil?

Hold on a second...what's your definition of "hyper aggressive"? Is "hyper aggressive" having vested interest in what happens right on the border of your country or is that just being pragmatic? I mean, it could be worse, there could be a country that has toppled multiple regimes half way around that world, destabilized a handful of other countries, and are droning so many countries that almost no one even knows who all is being hit.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
43,950
Reaction score
12,031
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hold on a second...what's your definition of "hyper aggressive"? Is "hyper aggressive" having vested interest in what happens right on the border of your country or is that just being pragmatic? I mean, it could be worse, there could be a country that has toppled multiple regimes half way around that world, destabilized a handful of other countries, and are droning so many countries that almost no one even knows who all is being hit.

Last time I checked, the Ukrainians weren't conducting terrorist attacks throughout Western Europe.

Last time I checked, the Georgians didn't use chemical weapons in their own people.

Last time I checked, it was frowned upon to seize territory from your neighbors.
 

Coldwine

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
120
Reaction score
61
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Indicates you don't know what your talking about.

Oh, that's an astonishingly well-reasoned argument that tackles the nuances of international relations theory.
 
Top Bottom