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Putin is said to be furious about Western sanctions and intel officials fear he may target Ukrainian civilians as revenge

This is not just disingenuous, but feeds a partisan lacking-in-evidence narrative.



Do you not realize the NATO nations are all talking to each other? Constantly? You have no idea of the input or leadership taking place, besides what is announced to the public, and that's likely not a lot of it.

Perhaps, it's possible the leadership is making more informed decisions than you are? However, you are entitled to your opinion, so I'll respect that.
I think the intentions of NATO are good ones - some of the leaders taking a much bigger leadership role than others. Biden is taking a back seat, follow the group, stay pretty quiet, place. That's just a weak position for the leader of such an important member in NATO, and it shows. And, while NATO intentions are good ones, they are not helping the situation for Ukrainians. "Unity" and ALL THE TALK aren't working out so well.

I think there is a big effort to avoid nuclear war and that certainly makes good sense - but to watch this happen to Ukraine is simply heartbreaking. Meanwhile, the U.S. has STILL not even employed all possible sanctions.

I'm not making any decisions. Like so many others, I'm just watching Ukraine crumble and I'm struggling to see the "success" aspect of this.
If we simply end up avoiding nuclear war (a good thing) by using the tactic of letting one after another country be taken over by Putin or potentially Xi (a VERY bad thing) - it that something to celebrate as effective "NATO unity"?????
 
It isn't meant to benefit Ukraine. It's meant to benefit the United States.
They aren't meant to benefit anyone. They are meant to punish Russia and in that regard they are working. Trouble is Putin doesn't care about the Russian people he cares about himself. The world needs the Russian people to turn against Putin.
 
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It isn't meant to benefit Ukraine. It's meant to benefit the United States.
That's an interesting comment! Are you saying these sanctions were never intended to provide any benefit to Ukraine? What specific benefits do you think the sanctions were intended to provide to the U.S.?
 
That's an interesting comment! Are you saying these sanctions were never intended to provide any benefit to Ukraine? What specific benefits do you think the sanctions were intended to provide to the U.S.?
They are meant to minimize the chances of Putin doing something stupid and escalating to the point that the US is forced to respond putting US troops and civilians in danger. By slow walking sanctions, you keep the enemy guessing and make him cautious. This benefits the US and NATO, (and the entire world if we're being honest) by doing whatever we can to prevent the outbreak of World War III.
 
It's also a way to put pressure on the oligarchs and the people. The demand to stop must come from within Russia. Putin has only one goal in mind. Personal power and a perverse need for world recognition
 
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They aren't meant to benefit anyone. They are meant to punish Russia and in that regard they are working. Trouble is Putin doesn't care about the Russian people he cares about himself. The world needs the Russian people to turn against Putin.
They are meant to threaten Russia. That is the primary purpose of using the sanctions tool. There always needs to be more available. They work best as a deterrent and to put pressure on Russian civilians, who in turn put pressure on the government.
 
Sanctions are more useful when they are progressive, rather than putting all your cards on the table in the first hand. Putin is less likely to escalate if he fears the next sanction than if we hit him with everything we have in the first round.

Nope. Putin sees mild sanctions as weakness, and he has contempt for weakness. He see's as a justifying his views of the west as morally weak and degenerate, not as a warning.

Does anyone doubt that if these sanctions were imposed in 2014, it would have shaken his world to the core (being totally unprepared)? My bet he would have hot footed it to the negotiation table and backed WAY off.

We didn't, and here is where we are.
 
I also think Putin's mental State has deteriorated. He seems to be becoming delusional. Seriously dangerous.
 
I also think Putin's mental State has deteriorated. He seems to be becoming delusional. Seriously dangerous.
See pictures of him lately? His head looks like it's going to explode... Medication? Surgery? Something is going on...

His head looks like Charlie Brown...
 
Nope. Putin sees mild sanctions as weakness, and he has contempt for weakness. He see's as a justifying his views of the west as morally weak and degenerate, not as a warning.

Does anyone doubt that if these sanctions were imposed in 2014, it would have shaken his world to the core (being totally unprepared)? My bet he would have hot footed it to the negotiation table and backed WAY off.

We didn't, and here is where we are.
I'm not saying that we had enough sanctions in 2014. I'm saying that sanctions must be progressive. Of course it's possible to use too little sanctions too late. However, it's also possible to use too heavy sanctions too early. The proper way to play the sanction game is to keep the opponent guessing. Revealing your best hand too early will lose you the game just as easily as taking too long and revealing a weak hand too late. But at least by going too mild in the beginning you have somewhere to go when it doesn't work. Going too heavy too early leaves you with nowhere to go. Especially when they are a double-edged sword and have the ability to hurt Americans as well as Russians.
 
The real fear is that the west, not led by the US, is we will make a bunch of bold statements and sit on our hands and watch. I shutter to think what happens if we are eventually drug into a war with Russia with Biden and his team in the White House.

Russia is not even 70% the military I thought it was.

What saves their bacon is that nuclear arsenal.
 
Yes, and this is painfully obvious to see - to the whole world.

Biden has led splendidly in the months leading up to the invasion of Ukraine. The US, NATO, and the EU are all united and cohesive. I haven't seen that in a long time.

Where I'll fault BIden is being too timid with US weapon deliveries to Ukraine. We should have started pumping that up when it became clear that Russia was parking soldiers on the Ukraine border.
 
Biden has led splendidly in the months leading up to the invasion of Ukraine. The US, NATO, and the EU are all united and cohesive. I haven't seen that in a long time.

Where I'll fault BIden is being too timid with US weapon deliveries to Ukraine. We should have started pumping that up when it became clear that Russia was parking soldiers on the Ukraine border.
No president wants MAD.. They got to be careful... JFK proved that..
 
Based on half the stuff I read around here and see coming out of the global political cabal, it might. All appearances are that since Putin has gone nuts then the LAST thing we need to do is provoke him to go more nuts...or to provide any substantive support to Ukraine because THAT might provoke Putin. We can send in all the Stingers and Javelins we want but a "no fly" zone is out of the question and providing any troops to secure airfields...FAGEDDABOUTIT!!

At this point the US/EU plan seems to be to allow Ukraine to die as slow and painful a death as possible while doing nothing to help other than wagging an occasional finger or two. Hell, Biden is still buying Russian oil and he's sending Harris to sort the Ukraine issue out because she knows that Russia is bigger than Ukraine and that invading another nation is bad.
I don't see where the OP mentioned a no fly zone.
 
See pictures of him lately? His head looks like it's going to explode... Medication? Surgery? Something is going on...

His head looks like Charlie Brown...
Show us pictures. You've piqued my curiosity.
 
Show us pictures. You've piqued my curiosity.
LOL... He's been all over the news lately... Google is a wonderful thing... Look at pictures of him 10 years ago compared to this week.. His head looks Charlie Brown now... Surgery? Steroids? Something happened...
 
I think the intentions of NATO are good ones - some of the leaders taking a much bigger leadership role than others. Biden is taking a back seat, follow the group, stay pretty quiet, place. That's just a weak position for the leader of such an important member in NATO, and it shows. And, while NATO intentions are good ones, they are not helping the situation for Ukrainians. "Unity" and ALL THE TALK aren't working out so well.

Are you aware of the items in the article I used for my OP, in the thread I'm linking below?

It gave me a bit more perspective and support for the way this is being handled by Biden & NATO.

Remember the stalled convoy? Read-on!


I think there is a big effort to avoid nuclear war and that certainly makes good sense - but to watch this happen to Ukraine is simply heartbreaking. Meanwhile, the U.S. has STILL not even employed all possible sanctions.

We're all torn on this; it's beyond heartbreaking. With today's technology available to everyday citizens all over the world, particularly cell phones with video capability, and internet access to social media, these events are broadcast into our own personal communication devices 24/7. We are now involved, individually, in unprecedented manner.

I'm not making any decisions. Like so many others, I'm just watching Ukraine crumble and I'm struggling to see the "success" aspect of this.

Sometimes there is no real success, but rather a minimalizing of loss.

If we simply end up avoiding nuclear war (a good thing) by using the tactic of letting one after another country be taken over by Putin or potentially Xi (a VERY bad thing) - it that something to celebrate as effective "NATO unity"?????

NATO seems quite unified. It is a protectorate treaty for members. Ukraine is not a member. Reaching outside its membership is simply not in its charter.

By asking NATO to react further, it is asking it to reach beyond its charter. That would be the responsibility of other alliances or agreements, made up of individual countries.

--

I do hope you consider reading the article in my link, above. I think it may affect your opinion in this a bit. At the least, it may lesson some of the hopelessness so many of us feel over these events.
 
I wish Putin was 8 inches taller.
 

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It seems Putin expected his military to occupy Ukraine in a few days (a reprise of Crimea) and any Westen sanctions to be timid and very manageable. Neither expectation has occurred. Putin has greatly miscalculated.

But he is furious at Ukraine and the West, and this psychopath will take his revenge out on Ukrainian cities and civilians. Russian forces are already destroying Ukrainian cultural sites and structures.
Putin was always bad at chess and good at getting another outcome than the one he expected.
 
They are meant to minimize the chances of Putin doing something stupid...
You mean like invading a sovereign country whose territory it had already promised to protect, deliberately target civilian populations, and attack critical infrastructure?

Your confusion on the role of sanctions isn't your fault. The Secretary of State and Vice President both said publicly several times before Russia invaded that they were attempting to use sanctions to deter Russia. Yet when pressed after the invasion, President Bidden said that "no one" expected these sanctions to deter Russian aggression. Here is a great example of how the current administration seems to be rudderless.

Think about it. Over the past few days we've seen Republican and Democrat leaders in the house and senate both in agreement. Pelosi's clear "Ban it" is as bold as anything Republicans have said. To pass sanctions on anything OTHER than the only leverage point that Russia has is puzzling. Concern about inflationary pressures? When in the last 13 months as the administration cared a wit about inflation? We've seen the White House largely bury their heads in the sand and say that spending trillions and trillions of dollars through fiat currency couldn't possibly have a connection to inflation. Yet, when in the midst of what largely can be described as a genocide being committed in real time, they suddenly care about inflation?
 
what the **** did he think was going to happen invading a democratic government for no reason? **** him, nad Russia needs to take their country back
 
Biden has led splendidly in the months leading up to the invasion of Ukraine. The US, NATO, and the EU are all united and cohesive. I haven't seen that in a long time.
I'm struggling with understanding how you link the cause and the effect here.

Up to the actual invasion, NATO certainly was not unified. President Biden and other administration officials admitted this multiple times as war was looming. Germany's grand conversion towards lethal aid and finally agreeing to meet NATO military spending targets only occured AFTER the invasion and a rather brutal dressing down by the Polish Prime Minister. The Administration's role, send Vice President Harris to Europe where she issued statements that defy any form of logic or coherency. Given the State of the Union, President Biden took the time to acknowledge the horror of the invasion, but largely it was devoid of any calls for action. Interestingly, mulitple times the verbiage of actions taken used "joined with" other nations, acknowledging that we were not leading but following actions of other countries. The rest of the actions cited were largely half messures. Releasing 30 million barrels of oil? That's just under 3 days Russian oil imports.

What you haven't seen is American leadership.
 
You mean like invading a sovereign country whose territory it had already promised to protect, deliberately target civilian populations, and attack critical infrastructure?

Your confusion on the role of sanctions isn't your fault. The Secretary of State and Vice President both said publicly several times before Russia invaded that they were attempting to use sanctions to deter Russia. Yet when pressed after the invasion, President Bidden said that "no one" expected these sanctions to deter Russian aggression. Here is a great example of how the current administration seems to be rudderless.

Think about it. Over the past few days we've seen Republican and Democrat leaders in the house and senate both in agreement. Pelosi's clear "Ban it" is as bold as anything Republicans have said. To pass sanctions on anything OTHER than the only leverage point that Russia has is puzzling. Concern about inflationary pressures? When in the last 13 months as the administration cared a wit about inflation? We've seen the White House largely bury their heads in the sand and say that spending trillions and trillions of dollars through fiat currency couldn't possibly have a connection to inflation. Yet, when in the midst of what largely can be described as a genocide being committed in real time, they suddenly care about inflation?
There is good reason to believe this ban on Russian oil is coming. But such a ban will have serious repercussions on the American economy. The Biden administration is trying to look before it leaps.
 
There is good reason to believe this ban on Russian oil is coming. But such a ban will have serious repercussions on the American economy. The Biden administration is trying to look before it leaps.
Well many buy oil from Russia but none really fully depend on it, many others in the oil markets, and most countries already buys oil from several countries. It's easier to ditch Russian oil than Russian gas.
 
Let us hope his dispassionate sociopathic nature works in our favor here, since he is maybe less likely to take the loss personally and lash out in anger.
 
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