Putin invades the last nazi country. The real antifa?

[DarkWizard12]

Pictured: Azov neo-nazis muster in ukaine

Since the last year, Azov has been formally integrated to ukrainian military forces. A decision that ironically, happened under a jewish ukrainian president.

During this time, neonazis have taken up post all over the country, claiming for defense against russia, while they harass Russian speakers and political dissidents.

According to russia today, it was the overzealous azov forces that shelled and injured 2 russians near Donetsk, all while under ukrainian national control.

if the goal was defense, what defense warrants nazi military leadership? By what right does Nato aid and accept nazis? Germany knows, and is perhaps the reason they are hesitant about getting involved.

Putin has done far more to defeat fascism than US antifa ever has. Putin has turned his guns toward real nazis, perhaps saving us from a worse war or genocide in the future.

Perhaps saving ukrainian jews from a genocide under azov leadership.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

During this time, neonazis have taken up post all over the country, claiming for defense against russia, while they harass Russian speakers and political dissidents.

It is true that Ukraine does indeed have far right Nazi groups. However, this is in no small part caused by the constant harassment from Russia. When a foreign country meddles in the affairs of another it inevitably creates far right nationalist groups. Hamas in Palestine, ISIS in the middle east, and the Azov Battalion in Ukraine.

That's not to say that those groups shouldn't be criticized and dis-empowered, but framing the entire country of Ukraine as a "Nazi country" is dishonest.

Putin has done far more to defeat fascism than US antifa ever has.

This is a completely unhinged thing to say. Can you back this up at all? Russia IS fascist. They might not be Nazis (though they have their own domestic Nazi problem as well) but they meet every definition of fascism.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

According to russia today

 

[SCrider]

View attachment 67376172

Pictured: Azov neo-nazis muster in ukaine

Since the last year, Azov has been formally integrated to ukrainian military forces. A decision that ironically, happened under a jewish ukrainian president.

During this time, neonazis have taken up post all over the country, claiming for defense against russia, while they harass Russian speakers and political dissidents.

According to russia today, it was the overzealous azov forces that shelled and injured 2 russians near Donetsk, all while under ukrainian national control.

if the goal was defense, what defense warrants nazi military leadership? By what right does Nato aid and accept nazis? Germany knows, and is perhaps the reason they are hesitant about getting involved.

Putin has done far more to defeat fascism than US antifa ever has. Putin has turned his guns toward real nazis, perhaps saving us from a worse war or genocide in the future.

Perhaps saving ukrainian jews from a genocide under azov leadership.

Awe look at who is a pro Russian boot licker.

 

[DarkWizard12]

It is true that Ukraine does indeed have far right Nazi groups. However, this is in no small part caused by the constant harassment from Russia.

no, it's caused by them being nazis. If pseudo-victim politics can excuse ukrainian nazis, then how would it not excuse the US far right?

When a foreign country meddles in the affairs of another it inevitably creates far right nationalist groups. Hamas in Palestine, ISIS in the middle east, and the Azov Battalion in Ukraine.

see above.

That's not to say that those groups shouldn't be criticized and dis-empowered, but framing the entire country of Ukraine as a "Nazi country" is dishonest.

again, they are integrated in their armed forces. They used to be paramilitary, now they are the ukrainian military.

how would you take it if, when you joined the military, your drill instructor had a klan hood on? How do you think that would help with military defense?

This is a completely unhinged thing to say. Can you back this up at all? Russia IS fascist. They might not be Nazis (though they have their own domestic Nazi problem as well) but they meet every definition of fascism.

between russia and ukraine, only one of them has made fascist an integral part of their armed forces, and it isn't russia.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

no, it's caused by them being nazis. If pseudo-victim politics can excuse ukrainian nazis, then how would it not excuse the US far right?

If you read my post I specifically didn't excuse them. I only explained why they are so prominent. The US has a relatively weak presence of Neo-Nazis because we aren't actively under threat. Russia's belligerence of Ukraine has created conditions amicable to far right nationalist groups. Invasion always increases the strength of nationalist movements. You can't invade a country and continue to justify your invasion because it created nationalist radical groups...

...well you can. The US did for 20 years in the Middle East. But it isn't a valid justification.

again, they are integrated in their armed forces. They used to be paramilitary, now they are the ukrainian military.

how would you take it if, when you joined the military, your drill instructor had a klan hood on? How do you think that would help with military defense?

Ukraine is outnumbered by orders of magnitude. They are hardly in a position to turn down fighters. They simply don't have the resources to fight an internal conflict and an external invasion at the same time. You are also vastly overstating the prominence of the Azov Battalion in Ukraine. They are not exactly a popular group.

between russia and ukraine, only one of them has made fascist an integral part of their armed forces, and it isn't russia.

Wrong. The entire Russian military is fascist.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

The Azov are a minority among the Ukrainian forces, and even they, however unpleasant their views may be, are not anti-Russian; in fact the lingua franca of the battalion is Russian, and most have Russian as their first language.

Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side. The battalion even has a Russian volunteer, a 30-year-old from St Petersburg who refused to give his name. He said he views many of the Russian rebel commanders positively, especially Igor Strelkov, a former FSB officer who has a passion for military re-enactments and appears to see himself as a tsarist officer. He "wants to resurrect a great Russia, said the volunteer; but Strelkov is "only a pawn in Putin's game," he said, and he hoped that Russia would some time have a "nationalist, violent Maidan" of its own.

Azov fighters are Ukraine's greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat

The battalion's far-right volunteers' desire to 'bring the fight to Kiev' is a danger to post-conflict stability

www.theguardian.com

 

[CaughtInThe]

Damn. I didn't expect that justification from trump republicans to love Putin/invasions.

Can we also talk about Putin being a mob boss/strongman and ordering assassinations?

 

[DarkWizard12]

If you read my post I specifically didn't excuse them. I only explained why they are so prominent. The US has a relatively weak presence of Neo-Nazis because we aren't actively under threat. Russia's belligerence of Ukraine has created conditions amicable to far right nationalist groups. Invasion always increases the strength of nationalist movements. You can't invade a country and continue to justify your invasion because it created nationalist radical groups...

...well you can. The US did for 20 years in the Middle East. But it isn't a valid justification.

so if the US was under threat, you'd be totally fine with the KKK and nazis? How is that any different from Hitler's position? because he said they were under threat from russian communists.

I'm glad you admit that they're a weak prescence in the US, some people here pretend fascists are a major force in the US.

Ukraine is outnumbered by orders of magnitude. They are hardly in a position to turn down fighters. They simply don't have the resources to fight an internal conflict and an external invasion at the same time. You are also vastly overstating the prominence of the Azov Battalion in Ukraine. They are not exactly a popular group.

you make ukraine sound like a failed state. if Ukraine has no ability to control its own affairs, to take down its own extremist groups, then why shouldn't russia be involved? The azov movement is very belligerent and very violent. Is there really any doubt that, when given the opportunity, they would harrass and target numerous russian civilians in the east?

they're a neo-nazi group, that's what they do. you can't trust them to be a part of any official armed forces for this reason, and it's one of the reasons the ukrainian was foolish to do this.

I'll even do them a solid, and say the ukrainian may have ordered azov to stand down and not antagonize russia, and good for them if so! But when you make them your official military, that's the shit you risk because no one's going to know the difference. It was a stupid move, and any state worth their salt would know better.

Wrong. The entire Russian military is fascist.

he said while defending admitted neo-nazis.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Damn. I didn't expect that justification from trump republicans to love Putin/invasions.

Can we also talk about Putin being a mob boss/strongman and ordering assassinations?

It's my thread. You want to change the subject, you can start your own thread.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

so if the US was under threat, you'd be totally fine with the KKK and nazis?

No. Did you even read my post? All I said was you would expect an increase in Neo-Nazi movements. I never said anything about being OK with it, or that it justifies anything. I am describing to you what happens when countries are invaded.

you make ukraine sound like a failed state. if Ukraine has no ability to control its own affairs, to take down its own extremist groups, then why shouldn't russia be involved?

They can't fight the Neo Nazis BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTIVELY BEING INVADED. The Azov Battalion has actively expressed wishes to overthrow the Ukraine government after the war in the Donbass is over. The government DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM. They see them as a threat. If they were not facing annihilation there is no doubt they would be more focused on eradicating explicitly anti-government movements.

But when you make them your official military, that's the shit you risk because no one's going to know the difference.

They are not. They are a self organized volunteer force the government tolerates. To stop them the government couldn't "disband them" because they never organized them. It would have to actively engage them in combat and eradicate them through violence.

he said while defending admitted neo-nazis.

You should probably reread my posts. It seems you didn't read any part of them.

 

[CaughtInThe]

It's my thread. You want to change the subject, you can start your own thread.

Again, I didn't expect that justification from trump republicans to love Putin/invasions.

I give all you Tucker Carlsons an "A" for creativity though (as Putin plans his invasion).

 

[DarkWizard12]

Again, I didn't expect that justification from trump republicans to love Putin/invasions.

I give all you Tucker Carlsons an "A" for creativity though (as Putin plans his invasion).

i don't love putin.

but why should i love ukraine?

this issue is not our business, clearly. Either we ally with nazis, or we ally with a dictator.

lacking a good guy in all this, we'd be fortunate if ukraine and putin ended up killing each other.

**** these backwater nations. they're not our business.

 

[tacomancer]

This is one of DarkWizard's more intriguing gaslight posts. I will hand it to him for his sheer reality warping creativity.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

This is one of DarkWizard's more intriguing gaslight posts. I will hand it to him for his sheer reality warping creativity.

It is certainly impressive. He's even managed to out spin the absurdity of the narrative Putin is crafting. No meager feat to be sure.

 

[DarkWizard12]

No. Did you even read my post? All I said was you would expect an increase in Neo-Nazi movements. I never said anything about being OK with it, or that it justifies anything. I am describing to you what happens when countries are invaded.

neonazis were there before trump invaded.

They can't fight the Neo Nazis BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTIVELY BEING INVADED. The Azov Battalion has actively expressed wishes to overthrow the Ukraine government after the war in the Donbass is over. The government DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM. They see them as a threat. If they were not facing annihilation there is no doubt they would be more focused on eradicating explicitly anti-government movements.

neonazis have been a strong political and military force in ukraine long before russia did anything, so this is just you making excuses. Why are you making excuses for neonazis, unless you're one of them?

They are not. They are a self organized volunteer force the government tolerates. To stop them the government couldn't "disband them" because they never organized them..

the government made integrated them into their armed forces last year, brah.

It would have to actively engage them in combat and eradicate them through violence

oh, if only there were multiple groups of cooperative countries ready to help them to defeat nazis. Antifa has been on their couch lately, maybe tell them to go fight nazis in ukraine for college grants?

You should probably reread my posts. It seems you didn't read any part of them.

you can't comprehend the deep flaws in your own argument. When confronted with the truth, you just side step it, or outright lie. ukraine has ALWAYS entertained neonazis, this isn't a new thing that just occured the minute Putin decided to get aggressive. If anything, he became aggressive because of the neo-nazi problem.

 

[CaughtInThe]

i don't love putin.

but why should i love ukraine?

this issue is not our business, clearly. Either we ally with nazis, or we ally with a dictator.

lacking a good guy in all this, we'd be fortunate if ukraine and putin ended up killing each other.

**** these backwater nations. they're not our business.

you literally just made this thread.

 

[DarkWizard12]

you literally just made this thread.

indeed, but the goal wasn't to suck putin's balls. he doesn't need that.

the intent was to make fun of people who want to defend ukraine.

You want to fight for Azov, you're free to go to ukraine and do so, I won't stop you.

 

[joluoto]

Svoboda, as in the far right party with Neo-Nazi connections only has one seat in the Rada since the 2019 election. So much influence.

 

[joluoto]

Actually I am amused right now. We have this thread that says: Ukraine is Nazi! And then we have this thread: https://debatepolitics.com/threads/turns-out-theres-a-jewish-element-over-ukraine.473398/ that claims: Ukraine is all Jews! Please propagandists, choose one. You can't have both.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Actually I am amused right now. We have this thread that says: Ukraine is Nazi! And then we have this thread: https://debatepolitics.com/threads/turns-out-theres-a-jewish-element-over-ukraine.473398/ that claims: Ukraine is all Jews! Please propagandists, choose one. You can't have both.

i don't understand the point of the other thread. Jews dont' seem to have a particular dog in this fight. Both countries have a history of antisemitism.

 

[joluoto]

i don't understand the point of the other thread. Jews dont' seem to have a particular dog in this fight. Both countries have a history of antisemitism.

Because Jews, bad, thus Ukraine bad. Makes sense to antisemites with a hardon for Putin.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

neonazis were there before trump invaded.

Yep. And Trump didn't "invade". If Russia was launching an attack on US soil I guarantee you that nationalist far right militia groups would grow 10x more prominent in the US.

neonazis have been a strong political and military force in ukraine long before russia did anything, so this is just you making excuses. Why are you making excuses for neonazis, unless you're one of them?

The Azov Battalion didn't even exist until 2014. Neo Nazi groups have obviously been present in Ukraine, Russia, and most other countries for a long time. But it was Russia's involvement in the Donbass that fueled their growth. Russia, or any country, didn't create far right groups. It's just that invading a country tends to give them ammunition for recruitment. It's the same reason we could never stomp out the Taliban. Our presence constantly fueled their membership. That doesn't justify invasion.

you can't comprehend the deep flaws in your own argument. When confronted with the truth, you just side step it, or outright lie. ukraine has ALWAYS entertained neonazis, this isn't a new thing that just occured the minute Putin decided to get aggressive. If anything, he became aggressive because of the neo-nazi problem.

Bro, Russia has nazi's too. There are literally Russian Nazi groups in the Donbass right now fighting the Ukraine Nazi groups.

Russian National Unity (RNU) or All-Russian civic patriotic movement "Russian National Unity" (Russian: Всероссийское общественное патриотическое движение "Русское национальное единство"), is a neo-Nazi[1][2][3][4][5] political party and paramilitary organization based in Russia and formerly operating in states with Russian-speaking populations....In 2014, RNU members joined pro-Russian forces in Ukraine during the War in Donbass[11] under commandment of Pavel Gubarev.

Russian National Unity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This isn't some nice clean cut deal of Nazis vs the good guys. Both sides have Nazis. At the end of the day it is Ukraine that is being invaded. The Ukrainian government is not controlled by Nazis. Putin and Russia are explicitly a fascist state and are the aggressors. That being said, if Ukraine was launching an invasion of Russia I'd support Russia defending themselves.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Because Jews, bad, thus Ukraine bad. Makes sense to antisemites with a hardon for Putin.

okayy...but i don't think jews are bad though.

 

[Monica33]

Putin has done far more to defeat fascism than US antifa ever has. Putin has turned his guns toward real nazis, perhaps saving us from a worse war or genocide in the future.

Perhaps saving ukrainian jews from a genocide under azov leadership.

They will not be able to understand this , OP .
When you tell people that Ukraine is run by the Nazis they think you are mad .
They have no idea of the history , what happened in WW2 and post war .

However , it is a moot point whether the modern day Ukrainian Nazi presence is more of an Oligarch's tool to control the Sheeple than a following of the original SS role models'.
But regardless , they are tip top Fascists just like the US Dumbocrats .