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Pulling out-when and under what circumstances?

democraticandidate

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As I understand it, the president wants us to stay in Iraq until the new government's military is capable of defending themselves and showing the resolve to fight. In a recent article, U.S. Representative Ron Paul of Texas asks us if this is truly a practical thing to do. Here is a smattering of some of the more important points that he makes.

-in regards to the "if we leave, all #@%% will break out" theory.

Supporters of the war in Iraq, as well as some non-supporters, warn of the dangers if we leave. But isn't it quite possible that these dangers are simply a consequence of having gone into Iraq in the first place, rather than a consequence of leaving? Isn't it possible that staying only makes the situation worse? If chaos results after our departure, it's because we occupied Iraq, not because we left.

-As well as some historical examples that show otherwise.
We should remember that losing a war to China over control of North Korea ultimately did not enhance communism in China, as she now has accepted many capitalist principles. In fact, China today outproduces us in many ways – as reflected by our negative trade balance with her.

We lost a war in Vietnam, and the domino theory that communism would spread throughout southeast Asia was proven wrong. Today, Vietnam accepts American investment dollars and technology. We maintain a trade relationship with Vietnam that the war never achieved.

We contained the USSR and her thousands of nuclear warheads without military confrontation, leading to the collapse and disintegration of a powerful Soviet empire. Today we trade with Russia and her neighbors, as the market economy spreads throughout the world without the use of arms.

We should heed the words of Ronald Reagan about his experience with a needless and mistaken military occupation of Lebanon. Sending troops into Lebanon seemed like a good idea in 1983, but in 1990 President Reagan said this in his memoirs: "…we did not appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle…In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believed the last thing we should do was turn tail and leave…yet, the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there."

During the occupation of Lebanon by American, French, and Israeli troops between 1982 and 1986, there were 41 suicide terrorist attacks in that country. One horrific attack killed 241 U.S. Marines. Yet once these foreign troops were removed, the suicide attacks literally stopped. Today we should once again rethink our policy in this region.

When should we pull out of Iraq?

Do you favor Rep. Paul's views? Why or why not?

What other options are available to us at the moment?
 

Lucidthots

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democraticandidate said:
As I understand it, the president wants us to stay in Iraq until the new government's military is capable of defending themselves and showing the resolve to fight. In a recent article, U.S. Representative Ron Paul of Texas asks us if this is truly a practical thing to do. Here is a smattering of some of the more important points that he makes.

-in regards to the "if we leave, all #@%% will break out" theory.




-As well as some historical examples that show otherwise.



When should we pull out of Iraq?

Do you favor Rep. Paul's views? Why or why not?

What other options are available to us at the moment?
Thanks for the article "blue dog!"

I twice voted for Bush.

He is a good man, surrounded by deeply disturbed, and dangerous people.

I am ashamed that I supported his administration.

I want our troops brought home immediately.
 

Connecticutter

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I like Rep. Paul, and I support the view that we need to remove troops from Iraq, but I don't think we can do an immediate withdrawl. I think we need to withdraw from certain areas and let the Irawis toughen up while removing ourselves as targets. After all, the Insurgent strategy is to kill enough Americans so that we withdraw and they have free reign - so they need to be dealt with first. I wish I was a military expert so that I could give an exact answer, but I'm not.

If chaos results after our departure, it's because we occupied Iraq, not because we left.
That's the only thing I take issue with. It's sort of irrelevant at this point, is it not? Is Ron Paul saying that its okay to withdraw even if it leads to chaos? Maybe before the war there was "order," but that wasn't exactly the kind of order anyone wants to see.

I wish that we can have an Iraqi government soon, and that our troops can come home. It's clear that our patience is running out. Unfortunately, the patience of the insurgence is not.
 

Lucidthots

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Connecticutter said:
I like Rep. Paul, and I support the view that we need to remove troops from Iraq, but I don't think we can do an immediate withdrawl. I think we need to withdraw from certain areas and let the Irawis toughen up while removing ourselves as targets. After all, the Insurgent strategy is to kill enough Americans so that we withdraw and they have free reign - so they need to be dealt with first. I wish I was a military expert so that I could give an exact answer, but I'm not.



That's the only thing I take issue with. It's sort of irrelevant at this point, is it not? Is Ron Paul saying that its okay to withdraw even if it leads to chaos? Maybe before the war there was "order," but that wasn't exactly the kind of order anyone wants to see.

I wish that we can have an Iraqi government soon, and that our troops can come home. It's clear that our patience is running out. Unfortunately, the patience of the insurgence is not.
The way I see it, there is chaos now.

There will be chaos if we leave immediately........however,

The situation will sort itself out, someone will come to power and the country will come to order again under its own devices.

The only reason for us to stay is to create permanent bases like we have in Korea, Japan, Germany etc. which just so happens to be exactly what is called for by the PNAC.
 

Iriemon

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We give them a deadline, 6 month to a year max. Tell the Iraqis you have that much time to get your ***** together.

Telling the Iraqi people that we are not staying their indefinitely would be the best way to take some of the wind from the insurgent's sails.

This will problem not help the civil war we started. Unfortunately our leaders made tragic mistakes (or worse) and weren't smart enough to think things through. That is something that will haunt us for a generation. But just staying there indefinitely send the message that we want to control and dominate Iraq. Which I'm sure is this Administration's goal.
 

cnredd

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Pulling out-when and under what circumstances?

I think some here need to work on their thread titles...
 

Iriemon

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cnredd said:
Pulling out-when and under what circumstances?

I think some here need to work on their thread titles...
Heh heh this is an obvious "basement" (bedroom?) topic
 

Connecticutter

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Iriemon said:
But just staying there indefinitely send the message that we want to control and dominate Iraq. Which I'm sure is this Administration's goal.
The administration is over in 2009. Even if we're still in Iraq then, the Bush administration won't have control over it. So I don't know what compelled you to say this.


Lucidthots said:
The situation will sort itself out, someone will come to power and the country will come to order again under its own devices.
Right but will a constitutional government come to power, or another dictatorship?
 

VTA

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Iriemon said:
Telling the Iraqi people that we are not staying their indefinitely would be the best way to take some of the wind from the insurgent's sails.
Actually, with Zawahiri's recent letter as reference, it would do just the opposite. America leaving would give them the impression that they have 'expelled America' from Iraq and that they can begin 'taking their jihad to neighboring countries'. Iran would have no problem instilling it's influence in the country and undermining the years of work America has put into Iraq.

Right or wrong, America has started a process and it's in its own best interest to finish it and not flake out at the last minute.

It has sold to the Iraqi people the notion that it has intentions of creating a democratic state and turning over absolute power to the native population, spanning all ethnicities, Sunni, Shiite, etc. To bail out now would be a harsh blow to an already questionable credibility.

The relationships that have formed between the men on the ground and the locals that have put their trust in them is more important than anything else.
 

Calm2Chaos

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At the last possible moment - When you are using NO form of birth control !! :2razz:
 

Canuck

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Lucidthots said:
The way I see it, there is chaos now.

There will be chaos if we leave immediately........however,

The situation will sort itself out, someone will come to power and the country will come to order again under its own devices.

The only reason for us to stay is to create permanent bases like we have in Korea, Japan, Germany etc. which just so happens to be exactly what is called for by the PNAC.
[
Alert there is a wise man among us
Alert there is a wise man among us
Alert there is a wise man among us

There is more chaos /Terror now ,than there will be when America stops it's terror, that even Canada , America's closest of allies says no to. when America stops it's terror on Iraq there will be a brief ajustment period and all will be ok

But why would America leave they are bent on globalization not freeing IRAQ
anyone that thinks George doublw scr*w u Bush wants Iraq to be free
needs a straight jacket
him ,his father head of the cia at the the time,and rummy dummy rumsfeld ,gave sadam a set of golden spurs, at the very height of the atrocites , that sadam comited.

take a look at the photo on bottom to see how bush in younger times had only disrespect for a foreign leader at the time
Americans have their heads in the sand
 

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Connecticutter

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Canuck said:
[
Alert there is a wise man among us
Alert there is a wise man among us
Alert there is a wise man among us

There is more chaos /Terror now ,than there will be when America stops it's terror, that even Canada , America's closest of allies says no to. when America stops it's terror on Iraq there will be a brief ajustment period and all will be ok

But why would America leave they are bent on globalization not freeing IRAQ
anyone that thinks George doublw scr*w u Bush wants Iraq to be free
needs a straight jacket
him ,his father head of the cia at the the time,and rummy dummy rumsfeld ,gave sadam a set of golden spurs, at the very height of the atrocites , that sadam comited.

take a look at the photo on bottom to see how bush in younger times had only disrespect for a foreign leader at the time
Americans have their heads in the sand
I'm sorry. I would very much like to debate something with a different opinion, but I just have no idea what Canuck is trying to say. Can anyone help me out?
 

VTA

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Connecticutter said:
I'm sorry. I would very much like to debate something with a different opinion, but I just have no idea what Canuck is trying to say. Can anyone help me out?
Political satire can now be considered news as long as you hate what the administration is doing?:shock:
 

Canuck

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What Iam saying, is that the Americans are doing the terror in IRAQ.
pull out within 3 months there will be no more terror.Or at the very least terror will be on a far smaller scale then you see today.

When your best of Allies says no to Iraq it should clue you in a bit

Americans that think that Bush is there to free Iraq need to be locked up in a mental institution.

It was bush jr and sr and rummy dummy rumsfeld that gave sadam a set of golden spurs ,at the height of sadam's crimes against his people

they didn't care then and don't care now about the iraqian people.
they tell you that , so you can swallow hook, line, and sinker ,that it is a ,just, and honorable war on terror .thats right americans its just that .Canada says no to preemptive strikes on a third world nations using torture and DU nukes very honorable indeed .
bush's evangelical(that new religion) support base wants to quicken their whacky rapture,and America is crumbling from the weight of debt,crank that profit making war machine boys
and lets help isreal get rid of a few threats in region while we are at it
the war will expand to iran ,syria and will not end untill georgie boy leaves power.
As ussual Americans dumbed down to a sly remark and quick strawman tactic
your attempts only prove how dumbed down America really is.
 

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VTA

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oldreliable67 said:
VTA,



Totally agree. For a view of that, see this post...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=4649
I checked it out earlier, and unfortunately it's a part of the largely unreported positives that do occur in Iraq. There're lives being lived in Iraq and not just the numbers and negatives that are spoon-fed to us on a daily basis.

Anyone can say what they want, it won't make a bit of difference on the outcome; history will tell how good or bad things are in/for Iraq.
 

oldreliable67

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CanDuck,

When your best of Allies says no to Iraq it should clue you in a bit
And just who would these 'best of Allies' be? If you're thinking of the French, you should think again.

Question: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?

Answer: No one knows. Its never been tried.

Ok, thats now an old joke. But with the revelations coming from the multiple Oil-for-Food probes, that old joke begins to look more and more prescient. To wit: earlier this week, a French investigative magistrate brought former French Ambassador to the UN in for questioning on an allegation that he took a bribe from Saddam in the form of 11 million barrels of oil. Todays WSJ carries an article with some additional details on not only the former ambassador's but other influential politicians relationships with Saddam...

"Saddam himself was quoted by French journalists Claude Angeli and Stéphanie Mesnier as saying: "Who did not benefit from these business contracts and relationships with Iraq? … From Mr. Chirac to [former French defense minister] Mr. Chevenement, politicians and economic leaders were in open competition to spend time with us and flatter us."

The remark, made in 1992, was part of a larger complaint that France had joined the coalition in the first Gulf War; Saddam then warned that "if this trickery continues, we will be forced to unmask them, all of them, before the French public." Plainly, the warning was both heard and heeded, as France thereafter repeatedly came to Iraq's diplomatic rescue and did its utmost to obstruct the coalition of the willing before the war."

The journal article concludes with the following...

"We can't say that any of this comes as a surprise. But it ought to remind the world of two things: First, there was never a chance -- as some liberal fantasists still contend -- that more patient American diplomacy could have succeeded in creating an international consensus to enforce U.N. resolutions on Iraq, much less to depose Saddam. And second, the war in Iraq was not only an act of national liberation but also of international political hygiene. Any lingering doubts that certain French leaders were in need of a shower can now be dispelled."

The entire article is at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB112925190894668366.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

There are some, myself included, who believe that Saddam was convinced, right up until the bombs started dropping, that the UN Security Council influence he had purchased with the corruption of the Oil-for-Food program would keep the US away.
 

oldreliable67

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CanDuck,

As ussual Americans dumbed down to a sly remark and quick strawman tactic
your attempts only prove how dumbed down America really is.
Strikes me that this is truly the pot calling the kettle black. You put out comments that can't even be considered 'sly' or a decent 'strawman' and I call you on them and ask for your rebuttal (sometimes repeating that request two or three times) and what do I get? Darned little and what I do get is not even halfway intelligible.

I know that you are capable of better. On one or two posts, you have actually shown some ability for rational presentation of ideas. But thats only been one or two out how many? 100? 200? Heck, I've lost count! If you really want debate, try taking your own advice.
 

democraticandidate

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cnredd said:
Pulling out-when and under what circumstances?

I think some here need to work on their thread titles...
LOL-my complete and total apologies if I have earned a watchful eye for posting inappropriate or "graphic" material on a debate board.:doh Hopefully a heartbeat or two was only slightly skipped in a few moderator's hearts upon viewing the title.:mrgreen:
 

Lucidthots

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oldreliable67 said:
CanDuck,



And just who would these 'best of Allies' be? If you're thinking of the French, you should think again.

Question: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?

Answer: No one knows. Its never been tried.
Ever heard of Napolean?

Had a bit of an Empire........it is called history.
 

cnredd

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democraticandidate said:
LOL-my complete and total apologies if I have earned a watchful eye for posting inappropriate or "graphic" material on a debate board.:doh Hopefully a heartbeat or two was only slightly skipped in a few moderator's hearts upon viewing the title.:mrgreen:
Purely in jest...

We try to keep the off topic stuff and and insults down to a low roar, but we're not militant about it...:2wave:
 

oldreliable67

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Ever heard of Napolean?
Yep, you're right! My bad, as my kids would say. I was under the impression that Napoleon never defended Paris, and checking Wikipedia, I find that I was right in that Napoleon did not defend Paris -- he delegated the defense to his brother Joseph Bonaparte and Auguste Marmont. According to Wikipedia, Joseph Bonaparte fled the city and Marmont had no choice but to surrender the city. From Wikipedia...

"On March 31 Marmont met with the Russian envoy and discussed the surrender terms. Talleyrand gave the key of the city to the Tsar. Later that day the allied armies entered the city with the Tsar at the head of the army followed by the King of Prussia and Schwarzenberg. Napoleon was outraged by the surrender of Paris. He was forced to abdicate a few days later on April 4."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Paris_(1814)

So, you got me there, Lucid! Paris was defended, not by Napoleon and quickly surrendered, but defended nonetheless.
 

Canuck

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VTA said:
I checked it out earlier, and unfortunately it's a part of the largely unreported positives that do occur in Iraq. There're lives being lived in Iraq and not just the numbers and negatives that are spoon-fed to us on a daily basis.

Anyone can say what they want, it won't make a bit of difference on the outcome; history will tell how good or bad things are in/for Iraq.
get the body bag company on overtime

AS long as you stay there you are terrorists

As Long As You Stay there There will Never Be Peace
 

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we should leave Iraq when the Iraqis dont need us any more. While this may be quite some time, remember that we are STILL in Korea, Japan, German,y England and The Balkans. Why? Because they need us.

If we leave before they don't need us, then all that has been spent has been spent for naught.
 

VTA

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Canuck said:
get the body bag company on overtime

AS long as you stay there you are terrorists

As Long As You Stay there There will Never Be Peace
Okay, I'll get out as soon as I can...
:roll:
 
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