Public Sector Unions Destroyed Detroit [W:225]

[Jack Hays]

How is it that most of your colleagues don't seem to see it that way?

Depends on where you served, I suppose. Most of my colleagues think as I do.eace

 

[Dittohead not!]

The unions are responsible for the well being of their members, all of whom will be be left with next to nothing after the bankruptcy is executed. The unions failed their members.eace

That seems to me to be a bit of circular reasoning. The unions are to blame for the bankruptcy because they failed their members by causing a bankruptcy. Meanwhile, we're ignoring the loss of jobs and population in the city of Detroit, which was the real cause of their economic woes.

 

[Jack Hays]

That seems to me to be a bit of circular reasoning. The unions are to blame for the bankruptcy because they failed their members by causing a bankruptcy. Meanwhile, we're ignoring the loss of jobs and population in the city of Detroit, which was the real cause of their economic woes.

Not circular reasoning, but rather complex causation. The UAW played the central role in driving the auto industry out of Detroit, but it was the public sector unions that bankrupted the city.eace

 

[YoungConserv]

Depends on where you served, I suppose. Most of my colleagues think as I do.eace

Really let me guess you served in the armed forces or law enforcement?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Not circular reasoning, but rather complex causation. The UAW played the central role in driving the auto industry out of Detroit, but it was the public sector unions that bankrupted the city.eace

But it was the public employee unions you're claiming caused the bankruptcy, wasn't it? The UAW represented the auto workers, not the public employees.

 

[Jack Hays]

Really let me guess you served in the armed forces or law enforcement?

Intelligence.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

But I see you checked.:thumbs:
In the absence of an explicit statement about state/local collective bargaining, scholars have concluded that his statements about the federal level give a strong indication what his views would have been. This is really beyond dispute, and you should stop diminishing your credibility by claiming otherwise.eace

That's BS. If that were so, then their would have been court cases against them and ruled illegal. That didn't happen because there are people who believe public sector workers should be allowed collective bargaining rights. Teachers unions have been around long before 1950.

 

[Jack Hays]

But it was the public employee unions you're claiming caused the bankruptcy, wasn't it? The UAW represented the auto workers, not the public employees.

Yes. That is the case.

 

[YoungConserv]

Intelligence.

Yep anything that has a code of honnor is usually immune from the rot of public sector union abuse.

 

[Jack Hays]

That's BS. If that were so, then their would have been court cases against them and ruled illegal. That didn't happen because there are people who believe public sector workers should be allowed collective bargaining rights. Teachers unions have been around long before 1950.

Now you have changed the subject. I was discussing only the study of FDR's views. To our country's great detriment, others have indeed fostered the growth and power of public sector unions.eace

 

[Dittohead not!]

Yes. That is the case.

OK, why bring up the UAW?

 

[Jack Hays]

OK, why bring up the UAW?

I didn't.eace

 

[Dittohead not!]

I didn't.eace

OK, going back, I see your opinion is that the UAW drove the auto industry out of Detroit, but it was the public employee unions that bankrupted the city. Now, let's see, could there possibly have been other factors that affected the auto industry and/or the finances of the City of Detroit?

It does seem that those two issues are connected, but there would seem to me to be other factors operating as well.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Now you have changed the subject. I was discussing only the study of FDR's views. To our country's great detriment, others have indeed fostered the growth and power of public sector unions.eace

No, I'm not changing the subject. You stated, "In the absence of an explicit statement about state/local collective bargaining, scholars have concluded that his statements about the federal level give a strong indication what his views would have been. This is really beyond dispute, and you should stop diminishing your credibility by claiming otherwise." Which is BS. If any of that was true, it would have been challenge and won long ago. FDR never said any such thing about collective bargaining for state or municipal workers.

 

[Jack Hays]

No, I'm not changing the subject. You stated, "In the absence of an explicit statement about state/local collective bargaining, scholars have concluded that his statements about the federal level give a strong indication what his views would have been. This is really beyond dispute, and you should stop diminishing your credibility by claiming otherwise." Which is BS. If any of that was true, it would have been challenge and won long ago. FDR never said any such thing about collective bargaining for state or municipal workers.

Sorry. I did not realize how nonsensical was your argument. There is no reason at all why there would have been any challenge. George Meany himself opposed public sector unions, and he didn't challenge them either.eace

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Sorry. I did not realize how nonsensical was your argument. There is no reason at all why there would have been any challenge. George Meany himself opposed public sector unions, and he didn't challenge them either.eace

When those unions were forming, if so many high profiled people were against them, they would have made that known during that time. Simply having some people you mentioned oppose them means jack (no pun intended). You will always find people with differing points of view. FDR never did state he opposed collective bargaining for state or municipal workers.

 

[Jack Hays]

When those unions were forming, if so many high profiled people were against them, they would have made that known during that time. Simply having some people you mentioned oppose them means jack (no pun intended). You will always find people with differing points of view. FDR never did state he opposed collective bargaining for state or municipal workers.

Not at all. There's no reason at all why the POTUS and the head of the AFL-CIO should have spent any energy telling states and localities how to manage their affairs. And FDR died in 1945. The rest is in your imagination. But if that makes you happy . . .eace

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Not at all. There's no reason at all why the POTUS and the head of the AFL-CIO should have spent any energy telling states and localities how to manage their affairs. And FDR died in 1945. The rest is in your imagination. But if that makes you happy . . .eace

My imagination? Oh, the sweet irony.

 

[Jack Hays]

My imagination? Oh, the sweet irony.

Yup. Imagination. Regardless, it's beside the point; the public sector unions destroyed Detroit as FDR feared.eace

 

[windowdressing]

Yup. Imagination. Regardless, it's beside the point; the public sector unions destroyed Detroit as FDR feared.eace

you remind me so much of Cheney that it's starting to scare me ... Cheney would repeat a lie over and over and over again, and you do the same ... How often have you posted this garbage. If 2+2 does not equal 5, saying 2+2=5 repeatedly will not change that Jack. What destroyed Detroit was greed, the race to the bottom, racism, and corporate power like the kind that Thomas Jefferson warned us about hundreds of years ago ... Why are you such a mouthpiece for corporate interests? Have some self respect Jack ...

 

[StringBean]

My imagination? Oh, the sweet irony.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but FDR made several statements that federal employees should not be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain, and you're making the argument that, despite the clear line he drew on the federal level, he would have been perfectly okay with state and municipal employees doing exactly what he was arguing against?

I hope you realize that is quite a leap of speculation...

 

[Jack Hays]

you remind me so much of Cheney that it's starting to scare me ... Cheney would repeat a lie over and over and over again, and you do the same ... How often have you posted this garbage. If 2+2 does not equal 5, saying 2+2=5 repeatedly will not change that Jack. What destroyed Detroit was greed, the race to the bottom, racism, and corporate power like the kind that Thomas Jefferson warned us about hundreds of years ago ... Why are you such a mouthpiece for corporate interests? Have some self respect Jack ...

"Corporate greed" is a redundant expression. Corporate behavior had nothing to do with Detroit's demise. The automakers did not have inspired leadership, but they were more victims than perpetrators.eace

 

[windowdressing]

You really want to play this game? Jefferson was a slaveholder.eace

and probably a rapist too, still, he was one of the founding founders, and unlike Reagan, he had original thoughts ...

 

[windowdressing]

RWR remained a union member in good standing throughout his life. As six time President of the Screen Actors' Guild he held a lifetime membership in the AFL-CIO. He remains the only union member to be POTUS. Alzheimers? I thought you were better than that. :sigh:

FDR vs Jefferson? FDR hands down. FDR didn't own slaves and didn't bed the household help. He faced down both the Communists and the Fascists during the awful 1930's, led the country out of the Great Depression. As Commander in Chief oversaw victory in the most consequential war since Napoleon. eace

Are you from Texas? They're trying to write Jefferson out of the history books there ... and I guess Eleanor's secretary doesn't count as the help, but, O.K., we'll go with the Democrat ... too bad we have had to suffer thru GOP presidents since ...

 

[windowdressing]

"Corporate greed" is a redundant expression. Corporate behavior had nothing to do with Detroit's demise. The automakers did not have inspired leadership, but they were more victims than perpetrators.eace

poor things ... maybe the CEOs can vacation in one of their homes to get over it ...