Public Sector Unions Destroyed Detroit [W:225]

[Jack Hays]

Jefferson trumps FDR ... Not even close --- plus FDR was this rich guy who didn't like unions ... my hero was Reagan who was a good union man, but then realized that he had a better political future by going to the other side ... so he sold out, prostituted himself, and was rewarded with the presidency ... no doubt that up until he got alzheimers half way thru his first term he had a hard time looking at himself in the mirror ...

You really want to play this game? Jefferson was a slaveholder.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Well that's mighty deceptive of you Jack. No statement has ever been found for FDR's views on collective bargaining for state or municipal workers. He made it clear that Congress set the wage for federal workers.

"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." Doesn't look to me like he set any limits. You only call it deceptive because you find it unsupportive of your argument.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Good morning 2M,

I wouldn't blame public sector unions for the problem so much as I'd blame public sector union contracts and those who approved them. That would be the elected officials over the years who caved to union demands and also the arbitrators who awarded contracts, most often favoring union demands but never taking into consideration the public's ability to pay.

Arbitrators, like politicians, seem to believe that when you have taxing power you have, in effect, an unlimited ability to pay. Detroit, and other cities and states are starting to prove that wrong. I saw a statistic this morning that showed the pension and healthcare yearly obligations of the State of Illinois is about 241% of the state's ability to raise revenue. That's just impossible to sustain.

The reason for being of unions is to generate the highest salary and benefits package they can for the employees they represent and also to protect those employees from improper sanctions or working conditions imposed by their employer. Clearly, those unions have done a terrific job. Those who employ them and those who arbitrate settlements have not.

Greetings, CJ.:2wave:

The unions have done a terrible, irresponsible job. They demanded contracts that can't be paid, leaving the city ruined and their members with nothing.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Jefferson trumps FDR ... Not even close --- plus FDR was this rich guy who didn't like unions ... my hero was Reagan who was a good union man, but then realized that he had a better political future by going to the other side ... so he sold out, prostituted himself, and was rewarded with the presidency ... no doubt that up until he got alzheimers half way thru his first term he had a hard time looking at himself in the mirror ...

RWR remained a union member in good standing throughout his life. As six time President of the Screen Actors' Guild he held a lifetime membership in the AFL-CIO. He remains the only union member to be POTUS. Alzheimers? I thought you were better than that. :sigh:

FDR vs Jefferson? FDR hands down. FDR didn't own slaves and didn't bed the household help. He faced down both the Communists and the Fascists during the awful 1930's, led the country out of the Great Depression. As Commander in Chief oversaw victory in the most consequential war since Napoleon. eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Did it?
The last Detroit brand I bought was my Chevy Impala, made in Canada.

Foreign makers, like Honda and Toyota, did locate in right to work states to be sure.

Here's the list.

[h=3]List of automotive assembly plants in the United States - Wikipedia ...[/h]en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United...‎:mrgreen:

 

[Dittohead not!]

Here's the list.

[h=3]List of automotive assembly plants in the United States - Wikipedia ...[/h]en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_automotive_assembly_plants_in_the_United...‎:mrgreen:

It looks like quite a few are still in Michigan.

 

[Jack Hays]

It looks like quite a few are still in Michigan.

Yes, and quite a few are not. The latter movement was the change. Now that Michigan is a right to work state they may hold on to more.eace

 

[Manc Skipper]

Only the original Highland Park Ford factory was within the boundaries of Detroit city.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." Doesn't look to me like he set any limits. You only call it deceptive because you find it unsupportive of your argument.eace

And, you leave out the part in that same paragraph were he states, "The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress." Which makes it clear who he was talking about in that paragraph.

Also, he explains it in more detail here: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/aboutfdr/pdfs/union_pressconf.pdf

 

[Jack Hays]

And, you leave out the part in that same paragraph were he states, "The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress." Which makes it clear who he was talking about in that paragraph.

Also, he explains it in more detail here: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/aboutfdr/pdfs/union_pressconf.pdf

It is entirely fair to extrapolate that FDR did not favor public sector collective bargaining at the state or local level either. In the absence of any statement by him that he viewed the matter differently at the state and local level, his federal statements can fairly be applied lower down as well.eace

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

It is entirely fair to extrapolate that FDR did not favor public sector collective bargaining at the state or local level either. In the absence of any statement by him that he viewed the matter differently at the state and local level, his federal statements can fairly be applied lower down as well.eace

How so? Congress doesn't set our standards.

 

[Jack Hays]

How so? Congress doesn't set our standards.

There is an analogous legislative body at every level. The same logic applies.eace

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

There is an analogous legislative body at every level. The same logic applies.eace

So, you're going to speculate to try and prove your point. Doesn't work.

 

[Jack Hays]

So, you're going to speculate to try and prove your point. Doesn't work.

I am drawing the logical inference drawn by every commentator and scholar who has examined FDR's views on this question. I suspect you know that, so your silly objection is more disappointing than anything else.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

The case against public sector unionism - ProfessorBainbridge.com

www.professorbainbridge.com/.../the-case-against-public-sector-unionis...‎

Prior to the 1950s, as labor lawyer Ida Klaus remarked in 1965, "the subject of labor relations in public employment could not have meant less to more people, both in and out of government." To the extent that people thought about it, most politicians, labor leaders, economists, and judges opposed collective bargaining in the public sector. Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." The reason? F.D.R. believed that "[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable." Roosevelt was hardly alone in holding these views, even among the champions of organized labor. Indeed, the first president of the AFL-CIO, George Meany, believed it was "impossible to bargain collectively with the government."eace

​

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

I am drawing the logical inference drawn by every commentator and scholar who has examined FDR's views on this question. I suspect you know that, so your silly objection is more disappointing than anything else.eace

Or, at least those who confirm your bias.:mrgreen:

 

[Jack Hays]

Or, at least those who confirm your bias.:mrgreen:

I would welcome your citation of any reputable scholar who holds that FDR's view of state/local public sector collective bargaining differed from his view of same at the federal level.eace

 

[Manc Skipper]

The average Detroit pension is lower than many others, and less than $30,000 a year, for 21,000 people. Even if you believe they ask for too much, the buck stops with the people who agreed to pay it to them.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Greetings, CJ.:2wave:

The unions have done a terrible, irresponsible job. They demanded contracts that can't be paid, leaving the city ruined and their members with nothing.eace

Can't agree with you on this one 2M - the unions did exactly what they were supposed to do. It's not the union's job to manage the city and the finances of the city - that's the job of the city council, the mayor, and the non-unionized management bureaucrats, all of whom are responsible for the long-term health and prosperity of the city - they didn't do their jobs.

 

[Jack Hays]

Can't agree with you on this one 2M - the unions did exactly what they were supposed to do. It's not the union's job to manage the city and the finances of the city - that's the job of the city council, the mayor, and the non-unionized management bureaucrats, all of whom are responsible for the long-term health and prosperity of the city - they didn't do their jobs.

The unions are responsible for the well being of their members, all of whom will be be left with next to nothing after the bankruptcy is executed. The unions failed their members.eace

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

I would welcome your citation of any reputable scholar who holds that FDR's view of state/local public sector collective bargaining differed from his view of same at the federal level.eace

I don't need to quote opinion. The FDR library states: No statements as to FDR’s views on collective bargaining for state or municipal workers were found among his papers as Governor of New York or as President. http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/aboutfdr/unions.html

 

[Jack Hays]

I don't need to quote opinion. The FDR library states: No statements as to FDR’s views on collective bargaining for state or municipal workers were found among his papers as Governor of New York or as President. http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/aboutfdr/unions.html

But I see you checked.:thumbs:
In the absence of an explicit statement about state/local collective bargaining, scholars have concluded that his statements about the federal level give a strong indication what his views would have been. This is really beyond dispute, and you should stop diminishing your credibility by claiming otherwise.eace

 

[YoungConserv]

Am I the only one here that thinks public sector unions shouldn't exist? In my mind if your a civil servant you have chosen to serve the people not work against their intrests.

 

[Jack Hays]

Am I the only one here that thinks public sector unions shouldn't exist? In my mind if your a civil servant you have chosen to serve the people not work against their intrests.

I served nearly 34 years in the federal government and I agree with you.eace

 

[YoungConserv]

I served nearly 34 years in the federal government and I agree with you.eace

How is it that most of your colleagues don't seem to see it that way?