Iriemon said:
Yes. So what? There are extremists in every culture, including ours. The goal is not to encourage more of them.
This is obtuse and smacks of eagerness to ignore the problem away. Christian, Hindu and Jewish civilizations do not raise their children to hate an imagined enemy. They do not teach their children that non-believers or "infidels" are enemies of God. They do not cheer by the millions when a Christian, Jewish, or Hindu "martyr" murders for their Gods. The goal is to deal with them and I believe the professionals that have spent years and years and years studying said problem might know better than you.
Iriemon said:
I can see why, based on our experiences there. But that is their business. Unless Iraq represented a legitimate threat to us so that we were acting in legitimate self-defense, we had no right to walk in and dictate to the Iraqi people what kind of government they should have.
This is where you fail yourself. As long as this civilization breeds hate and venom towards our world for absolutely no reason, their business is our business. The Saudi Government, the Syrian Government, the Iraqi Government, the Iranian Government, and Palistinian Government have never attacked us. Until they do and represent a "legitimate" threat, are we to do nothing as their millions of terror cheerleaders cheer for their legion of murderers and the violence continues to escelade into the nuclear age? Of course if we did, then it would be all about how our government is inept and did nothing to prevent it...right?
Iriemon said:
What basis does a nation have to unilaterally invade another just because they don't like their form of government? That was the view espoused by Hitler in '38 and '39.
Hitler wanted to rule, reign, conquer, and destroy anyone not in his envisioned perfect. Our world is full of encouraged prosperity on ebvery level and in every religion and in every race. We want this civilization to prosper under their own governments and stop using us as a scapegoat for their own failures, because their failures to roll up their sleeves is killing our people. Big difference.
As far as what basis...what basis does a person have to interfere in something that is not his business and save someone in need? What you are refusing to see is that there was more than a few reasons for Iraq. Helping oppressed and abused people was among them.
Iriemon said:
Any country can change. Look at Eastern Europe, Russia, Iran.
More obtuseness. Eastern Europe (which our government, along with European allies, screwed over after WWII through appeasement of a forcasted future enemy) wasn't breeding a civilization of violent zealots. Russia wasn't breeding a civilization of violent zealots. Iran isn't ruled by a tyrant and the people are allowed a voice, despite the oppression that exists. Iraq could not change and would not have. Besides this, we no longer are afforded the time to wait for them to do for themselves.
Iriemon said:
Again, you think going into one country -- and one that was probably the most secular at that -- based on false pretenses and killing muslems daily is going to improve our odds. I don't see it. I see us effectively creating and training more terrorists. The men whose wives, sons, mothers, dads or brothers killed by our erroneous war may not strike us this year, or next or in 10 years, but they will be the ones carrying that nuclear bomb.
It's not a matter of what "I" think. This is also where you fail yourself. Do you think you know better than men that have been there? Men that have visited numerous Muslim countries and have experienced the pulse? Men who have spent a wealth of time studying and writing books and conducting surveys and future planners that have been supported by social reformacists? Study the region. Study the past. Study the social issues within this civilization. Study the turmoil within Islam. That guy you watch on TV that feeds you every horror story he can dig up for the sake of viewers that tune in know as much about the Middle East as you do. The truth is that he doesn't care and you think he does. Sitting in front of a television and forming an opinion is wreckless and ignorant. Study the region. You will start to understand. She may not approve of how we got ourselves into Iraq, but even "multimedia" understands the grander issues involved, because she has studied.
It doesn't matter what we do or what you see (like that matters). It doesn't matter if Iraq didn't happen. It doesn't matter if we instead invaded Saudi or Iran or Syria. Get it through your head...they are determined to hate you and kill you. Doing nothing for fear of "antagonizing" them is stupid. The President of Indonesia learned that from the Bali bombings. What we don't do today, we will inevitably do in the future. North Korea is not determined to kill you. China is not determined to kill you. The U.S.S.R. was not determined to kill you. Germany was not determined to kill you. The civilization in the Middle East is a threat to you whether you want to see it or not. You represent everything their God condemns and the failures in the Middle East are using you as salvation. They have nothing left. They are desperate and they are lashing out.
Iriemon said:
They are the worst. The Wahhabism their government supports is the most radical and dangerous. Their citizens attacked us on 9/11. And you want to give them a bye? That seems totally inconsistent for the justification you are arguing for Iraq. Why shouldn't we be invading Saudi Arabia and setting up a democracy there?
The true lords of terror is the "House of Saud." They are the ones that created all of this mess so many years ago and they are the ones that dictate this perverted form of Islam throughout this civilization. They are also the one's that are running around in their own country arresting up their own extremists now. I call it poetic justice. They've done this out of greed and for control.
Don't you have intelligence? Can't you figure this all out for yourself? Despite sometimes obvious evidence
direct responsibility for the numerous terrorist attacks on Muslim governments is not always a sure thing. What they are responsible for is the oppression and continued use of the West for their own selfish agendas which create the "martyr." What we are sure is that Islamic extremism on a grand scale comes form a single civilization in the most darkest region on Earth. (Even Africa exports.) Iraq was secular to a dictator and the people that were abused would have no problem with the overthrow. Further, the People of the Middle East had no interest in Saddam's Iraq or what happened to it. Saudi Arabia is the birth place of Islam. Attacking Saudi Arabia would be seen as a direct assault against Islam and it would bring the world down on top of us. The insurgency into Iraq would be nothing in comparison (and you would just be bitching about that instead of Iraq). Aside from the religious ramifications....the world has a lot of economy invested in the stability of oil flow from the established elite. This is why we are sworn to "protect" these bastards.
So..it is not about "me" giving them a bye. It's about dealing with them on a different level. The option of "war" is not feasable. The same with Iran. I got to say..you would completely drown in a tactical think tank community.